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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tree > Need help with TREE 310 servo problem
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Hello,

    I have a Journeyman TREE 310 that I have been trying to get working for years now. It was not working when I got it, and I did not know the Baldor card cage, drivers, and motors were not stock. From what history I could find on the machine the previous owner was in the process of upgrading the machine. I don’t know if it has ever worked after his updates, and he has passed so we cannot ask. I did fix the smashed oil lines coming out of the distribution block, and have also cleaned and re-lubed almost all of the moving parts.

    My Problem: When I move any axis, it sounds and moves rough/non-smooth part of or all of the time. Any rapid moves cause instant servo errors.

    I suspect a power/filtering problem or noise in the servo system. It currently has isolated single phase on inputs L1 and L2 of the LD4-03S supply. I have been told it will work this way but with reduced power. I have replaced the filter cap on the card cage supply with no change of the problem. I still suspect it needs true 3 phase power to make it work right.

    I have tried adjusting the drivers with no change of the basic problem; but it is hard working on a servo problem with no manuals for the card cage supply or drivers.

    Here is where I need some help! My next plan is to test with 3 phase. To do this I need a 6-10 KAV 2:1 delta - delta transformer with high, low voltage adjustment tabs (230 volts to 115 volts). Does anyone have this transformer sitting in a storage room needing a new home?

    You might ask, why the tabs? Well, currently I power the mill using a 10 HP roto-phase and the generated leg is 20 – 40 volts high depending on the load. The tabs would hopefully allow me to correct the generated leg voltage. If there is an easy way other than tabs please tell me.

    TREE 310 Info:

    Controller: Dynapath 10

    Upgraded: BALDOR Card Cage & Power Supply
    FLA7153C-00
    LD4-03S

    Upgraded: BALDOR DRIVE BOARD
    FLD7150C-00
    LD3015HS160

    Upgraded: Motors: MTE-4534-SPECIAL

    Thank you for your time and any ideas,
    Bryan

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    35

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Hi Bryan,

    I have a J310 but my machine has the original Baldor DC servos and Servo Dynamics amps. The J310, in it's original state, did not need 3 phase for any component in the in the motion control system. 3 phase was needed only for the spindle drive.
    May I suggest that it's very possible you are seeing a dramatic PID loop tuning issue. I suggest this possibility because I ran onto similar issues when I ditched the DP 10 for new motion control HW/SW on my J310. Here are some trouble-shooting tips you can try:

    Make sure your servo amps are getting tachometer feedback from the encoders on the servos. Without this all hope for smooth motion control is lost.
    Make sure the servo encoders are correctly wired to the DP10.
    If possible, try and locate documentation and tuning procedures for your baldor servo amps. Servo amps must be in good tune independent of the DP10 control for smooth motion control.

    As a method of trouble shooting, you could fashion a simple circuit using a potentiometer to simulate the +10/-10vdc signals that drive the servo amps. Before doing this, remove the belt from the servo motor to the ball screw that you want to test :-) If you can achieve smooth operation of that servo motor with your test circuit then you have verified that the servo amps are fine and that you are dealing with a PID tuning issue.

    Good Luck!
    Mike

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Thank you for the ideas Mike,

    Last night I verified the tachometer output is getting to the driver inputs okay. When I was turning the motor by hand, I would see ~+- 0 to .3 volts.
    Question, should the tachometer shield be connected at the motor, or the driver, or both?

    I next verified the drivers are using differentiated input.

    Will I have to change the drivers input mode to use your idea of a variable voltage input with a battery and potentiometer?

    Thanks,
    Bryan

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    112

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Hi

    The manual for your servos is here:

    http://www.baldor.com/Shared/manuals/1269-798.pdf

    It has full setup instructions.

    The DP10 CIM is available on Scribd.

    John

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    35

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Had a quick look at the Manual for your servo amps. It should help you solve any tuning issues. Double check your servo amp jumper for single ended command input vs differential. I believe that the DP10 control is providing single ended command output. If your servo amps are expecting differential then that could be your problem. Double check me on the DP10... My recollection is that they are single ended output.

    Good luck!

    Mike

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Thanks John for the links

    Does one of you have a Scribd account, and could down load the DP10 CIM, and email it to: [email protected] It would be greatly appreciated!

    Mike

    When looking at the servo amps manual page Installation 2-5, I see a example of putting a DCV across the differential inputs for testing. Will this work? http://www.baldor.com/Shared/manuals/1269-798.pdf

    I looked at the 310 drawing that came with the mill and the MSI drivers used differential inputs, If I get a chance tomorrow night I will put a scope on the driver inputs and see if there out of phase.

    Thanks,
    Bryan

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    35

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Very strange! I can't open the .PDF file on my home computer! Internet Exploder says the link is broken... I was able to look at the .pdf at the shop earlier today! The manual also specified the correct grounding for the shielded twisted pairs used for tachometer and encoder wiring. That is also a potential source of problems...

    Regarding testing of the servo amps independent of your DP10 I would think using a fixed DCV should work. +10vdc should produce 100% speed clockwise. -10vdc should produce 100% speed CCW, 5vdc should produce 50% speed CW... Motors should run smooth and quiet. As I said, best to remove the belt from the axis you test...

    What model year is your J310? Mine is a 1986 and it came with Servo Dynamics amps and a DP10 control. I thought my machine was setup for single ended servo control but I could be wrong about that.... I replaced the DP10 with hardware from CS-Labs and that controller uses a separate "ground" for each servo control so perhaps my amps are also "differential"? Sorry I can't say for sure what the DP10 was using...

    Good luck!
    Mike

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    310 Serial# 9-32-85-1255
    Guessing it is a 1985
    Bryan

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    35

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    1985... Surprised to hear it was not originally shipped with Servo Dynamics??? I have schematics for my machine in it's original configuration. Let me know if you think those would help and I'll snap some photos for you.
    This morning I can once again view the .PDF for your servo amps! If you follow the adjustment procedure on page 3-2 you should be able to tune your amps perfectly. The procedure recommends using +5VDC for tuning.
    If after tuning you still get the awful motion-control behavior from the DP10 at least you'll know it's the fault of the DP10 and not the servo amp system. In that case I might suspect encoder wiring issues or perhaps PID loop
    tuning for the DP10???

    Good Luck!
    Mike

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Hi Mike,

    I removed the belt on the X axis.

    I was going to try 1.5 volts on the input (pins 1, 4) X axis, but when I powered on the machine the system would get a voltage error and kick the servo system off. Does the processor do some kind of check that could trigger an error?

    I next reconnected the X axis input from the controller and referenced the machine okay.

    I ran a loop on the Z axis up/down and looked with a scope on the Z axis inputs and only the
    Positive input (pin 1) was moving in reference to the TP1 com on the driver.

    This makes me think you are right and the controller is sending single ended output. Is there any way to look at the controller boards or setup to verify this?

    Thanks,
    Bryan

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    To All,
    Here is a link to see photos of the 310 parts: tree310
    Bryan

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    35

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Pics look like my cabinet before I replaced the DP10. I noticed your DP10 has the 12mhz processor board, this is the better CPU. Your DP10 should support drip feed which is something my old DP10 did not support.

    Regarding servo amp tuning: It's possible that floating +/- 10vdc servo amp inputs are not cool. Perhaps that servo motor started to move and the DP10 then sees the movement from encoder feedback and kills the servo power? I went back and had a look at my notes... Looking at the vertical buss-bar on the left of your cabinet you should find a junction labeled #209. This is the servo enable line. If you raise that line to +24vdc the servos will enable. You can do this without turning on the DP10. You will still have E-stop and limit switch protection but the +/- 10vdc servo inputs will be floating which could send a servo motor spinning and that would not be cool. I'd suggest removing the belts from all three axis. Then wire in short circuits for servo amp control (pins 1,4) so that no possible servo amp command could be interpreted from floating inputs. Then you can use your 1.5vdc source for your selected axis and commence with servo amp tuning as per page 3-2 of your instructions. Hope this make sense?

    Lastly, regarding single ended vs differential: I think the only difference would be that in single ended the negative input would be the same as ground. ie. VOM should see 0 ohms between that input and ground. For differential the negative input would not be the same as ground, It would be the negative output of a DAC that is putting out the +/- 10vdc.
    Now that I look back at my notes I am inclined to think that the DP10 is using differential output... Sorry I can't be sure.

    Hope this helps!
    Mike

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    35

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Bryan, One more thought came to mind... It's possible that your servo amps are in perfect tune (best to verify however) and that the DP10 needs to be "re-calibrated" for the new amps/servos. Honestly, I would expect the DP10 to be very much "out of tune" with different amps/servos that produce different acceleration/deceleration and perhaps even RPM for a given input command. I have no idea how you go about PID loop tuning with the DP10? Perhaps someone else can comment on this?

    Mike

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    12

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    I have a Tree 325 with a Dynapath Delta 20 built in 1990 or 1991. It also has been converted to Baldor LD servos and Baldor motors. It works fine with the single phase input.

    I *think* somebody worked with Baldor and came up with a retrofit package to replace the Servo Dynamics drive and the motors. I don't know if it was Dynapath, Tree or an Independent.

    I was told those motors marked "special" and not available directly through Baldor, only thru whoever engineered the deal. Maybe Baldor can tell you who? If you want, I can take a look at the way mine is wired.

    Jim

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Yes Jim, It would be great if you could see how your 325 is wired.

    First is you card cage power supply a LD4-03S and is it powered single phase, or 3 phase?

    On my drivers, pins 2 & 4 are used for single ended input, and 1 &4 are used for differential input.

    Also, if you have the time could you look at the 5 jumper positions.

    P1 Right position (pins 1 and 2) when normally opened switches are used. Left position (pins 2 and 3) when normally closed switches are used.

    P2 Right position when using a differential input. Left position for single ended input.

    P3 Right position for reading actual current (+ or –) on the DCS current monitor. Left position for the absolute value. (always positive)

    P4 Right position for EC (Excess Current) latch function Left position for current foldback mode, where current is limited to a lower fixed level.

    P6 Left position for velocity mode operation. Right position for current mode and for use in positioning applications with

    Thanks,
    Bryan

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Mike, I hope your right about the processer supporting dip feed, that would make this machine far more useful. :-)

    I took some ohm measurements, on pins 1 & 4 with my meter set on its lowest ohms setting.

    Pins 1 & 4 both look open referenced to the drivers board common TP1.

    In reference to ground, pin 1 looks open, and pin 4 is at 47 ohms.

    Is there a common ground line on the Delta 10 other than the card cage earth ground. If so, where can I connect?

    Thanks,
    Bryan

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    12

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Hi Bryan:

    My card cage is also LD4-03S. It is powered single phase off the original step down transformer.

    There are no connections to pin 2 & 3. 1 & 4 have connections.

    P1 - right (1&2)
    P2 - right (1&2)
    P3 - left (2&3)
    P4 - right (1&2)
    P6 - left (2&3)

    Jim

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    60

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    That was fast! Thanks Jim,

    When you say step down transformer, do you mean something like this: drawings

    It looks like the major difference P3 Current monitor value DCS.

    Yours is Absolute, and mine is Actual (What difference this makes I don't know)

    Thanks,
    Bryan

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    12

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Transformer looks like the one you have on your machine. The wiring diagram looks the same.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6028

    Re: Need help with TREE 310 servo problem

    Looks like factory baldor stuff to me. Tree used to play with drives and motors all the time, we never knew what they would send. Did you go to set up mode on the control, and turn on lag display? That will help you set balance and signal. I'll try to find the set up sheet for those. I think it was 15 at medium jog. Use tach and Sig to adjust. The baldor motors did have issues sometimes with loose encoders in them causing erratic noise.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk

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