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IndustryArena Forum > OpenSource CNC Design Center > Open Source Controller Boards > Open source low cost servomotor controller
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  1. #121
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Dear websrvr. Please stop whining about Eagle. Get a free trial of Altium and convert it yourself.
    Or just use CircuitMaker instead, it's free. The design for CircuitMaker is here: https://workspace.circuitmaker.com/P...gl-2/ODrive-v3

    The price I can ask for a board may never drop; if I take this project more seriously and hence do more work to cut manufacturing costs, I may also start having a non-zero margin on the boards to fund the development time. Right now my time is donation.
    Or the price may drop. We will see. It depends on how much legwork people are capable of doing themselves vs how much catering I do for others.

    If you want single axis, check out the VESC: VESC – Open Source ESC | Benjamin's robotics

  2. #122
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    Open source low cost servomotor controller

    The free version of eagle now is useless for larger projects. 80cm^2 board, two signal layers and two schematic sheets only. Standard for $100 year only does 2 signal layers. You need premium at $500 year if you want more than 2 signal layers.

    Once I switched to Circuitmaker, I haven't looked back. Helps that my brother uses Altium professional daily and can ask him questions.

  3. #123
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Quote Originally Posted by macdowswe View Post
    Dear websrvr. Please stop whining about Eagle. Get a free trial of Altium and convert it yourself.
    Or just use CircuitMaker instead, it's free. The design for CircuitMaker is here: https://workspace.circuitmaker.com/P...gl-2/ODrive-v3

    The price I can ask for a board may never drop; if I take this project more seriously and hence do more work to cut manufacturing costs, I may also start having a non-zero margin on the boards to fund the development time. Right now my time is donation.
    Or the price may drop. We will see. It depends on how much legwork people are capable of doing themselves vs how much catering I do for others.

    If you want single axis, check out the VESC: VESC – Open Source ESC | Benjamin's robotics
    VESC isn't really suitable as a servo driver for CNC applications when the firmware still needs considerable development for positioning..

    The purpose of open source is to aid rapid development by allowing a collective of developers to work on a project and to encourage development a useful project base is available in which to work from, CircuitMaker ties you to a specific group of manufacturers and unfortunately these are not cost effective for budget developers so potential developers shy away because it doesn't seem possible to contribute without jumping through a lot of hoops which means everyone interested in this project must relay on and wait for you to progress development tp a point it's a usable product, then hopefully find someone later who will convert the files to something acceptable for most PCBA facilities, obviously a Class-1 assembly would be a waste of money when a Class-3 or Class-4 is more than acceptable in this application and an assembly facility that will process a job as inexpensively as possible in small quantity aids in development.

    Very few people would dump $300.00 ( $100.00 x 3) for three boards they can program and blow up to aid development which means that anyone buying the board is either a tweaker who wont contribute much in the way of code advancement or an end user who expect the product to perform correctly and is unable to contribute to it's development at all.

    I wasn't aware that Altium would convert your CircuitMaker files and I might look into it for this purpose since I was just about to pay someone to spend the time entering it into EAGLE for me.

    Now according to an arm development engineer who is proficient with ST-Micro products, using the STM32F4 for simultaneously driving more than 2-axis is not advised and he recommends nothing less than an STM32F7 where multi-cores with outstanding core isolation would essentially respond like four separate STM32F1's.

    I contacted Cadsoft about the EAGLE board size and layer limitations for personal and educational development purposes and they provided free of charge a license that removes the layer and size restriction and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has made such a request and I'm probably not the last to make such a request so to hear nonsense about layer and size restrictions as a reason to not use eagle is nothing shy of ignorance.

    I'm not solely dependent on EAGLE, yes I have it, know how to use it but most board shops can use a variety of file formats so, any software that is free for personal development and has reasonable limitations that a board house can use is acceptable, Altium if it provides a workable personal development solution is more than acceptable but the majority of the trial or freeware solutions restrict basic functionality, some don't let you save files or export gerber data or expires after a period of time so unless the software has acceptable functionality it's a waste of time to consider looking at it regardless of the features it has.

    This same arm engineer examined your board layout and noted some areas of concern regarding current and optimal part placement and was willing to work on the areas of concern but with no files he can work with, EAGLE, Altium, CAM350 he wished you the best of luck stating he wouldn't waste his time converting the files so he could work on it and fix the mistakes and you clearly have indicated you have no desire to make it available in any other format so don't expect qualified developers eager to help you work out the kinks.

    Several people have expressed interest to me in aiding in this projects development but currently with the only source of boards is from you at an inflated price due to your choice of production and assembly facilities and the choice of development software and board producers restricted to CircuitMaker/CircuitHub, interest quickly diminishes leaving you to go it alone.

    The ones who have contacted me don't wish to make any public posts for fears of being attacked for saying something wrong or out of context or misinterpreted and I don't blame them since I've seen the nonsense in this thread.

    They see how people like joeybagadonuts and a handful of others who are more interested in the drama and the dissension they create and they want to avoid that nonsense and for some reason they don't find you to be the overly friendly approachable guy and I can't see where they get this from but it makes no difference to me how others perceive you, I have my own opinion and that's all that matters to me.

    I'm content letting you be the sole developer, if and when you give up and it's incomplete, I'll pay someone to finish it, I think it's a great project with unlimited potential and I have a million and one uses for it.

    I know the community would benefit from such a product but if you never finish it, it joins the ranks of so many other promising projects that are abandoned leaving them drooling on the next project that comes along with the promise to provide a suitable solution.

  4. #124
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Quote Originally Posted by websrvr View Post
    I'm content letting you be the sole developer, if and when you give up and it's incomplete, I'll pay someone to finish it, I think it's a great project with unlimited potential and I have a million and one uses for it.

    I know the community would benefit from such a product but if you never finish it, it joins the ranks of so many other promising projects that are abandoned leaving them drooling on the next project that comes along with the promise to provide a suitable solution.
    At the end of the day it is HIS project to do with as he pleases, but as the files are all available if your unhappy about any aspect (which it seems your unhappy about a lot of aspects), isn't this where you take the files and work on it to your satisfaction yourself, as you please?

    cheers, Ian
    It's rumoured that everytime someone buys a TB6560 based board, an engineer cries!

  5. #125
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    Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Eagle is now owned by Autodesk and not cadsoft. I'm sure if you asked Autodesk nicely, they may give you a premium license. That still doesn't change the fact that it is a yearly fee for most people requiring larger complicated boards.

    I don't fall under personal/educational.

  6. #126
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    The purpose of open source is to aid rapid development by allowing a collective of developers to work on a project and to encourage development
    Yes, but that is just your view of open source. It may not be everyone elses'.

    At the end of the day it is HIS project to do with as he pleases, but as the files are all available
    Precisely.

    If macdowswr wishes to run HIS project under slightly different 'rules' from what you want, that is his perogative. He has generously made the sources available in the format he uses. That is 'open source'.

    What I want to see is a report on how his completed PCBs work with a real load. If they pass that test - and the SW successfully handles various fault conditions, then it's all pretty amazing stuff.

    As an aside: these modern digital MOSFET drives with uP cores give a performance which older CNC machines could only dream of achieving. These drives (by M) are not single chip drives for tin-can steppers: they are way, way beyond that. The idea that they have to be made available at $50 a pop is a bit humerous: they can replace older drive systems costing $10k or more.

    My 2c.
    Cheers
    Roger

  7. #127
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    The purpose of open source is to aid rapid development by allowing a collective of developers to work on a project and to encourage development
    Yes, but that is just your view of open source. It may not be everyone elses'.

    At the end of the day it is HIS project to do with as he pleases, but as the files are all available
    Precisely.

    If macdowswr wishes to run HIS project under slightly different 'rules' from what you want, that is his perogative. He has generously made the sources available in the format he uses. That is 'open source'.

    What I want to see is a report on how his completed PCBs work with a real load. If they pass that test - and the SW successfully handles various fault conditions, then it's all pretty amazing stuff.

    As an aside: these modern digital MOSFET drives with uP cores give a performance which older CNC machines could only dream of achieving. These drives (by M) are not single chip drives for tin-can steppers: they are way, way beyond that. The idea that they have to be made available at $50 a pop is a bit humerous: they can replace older drive systems costing $10k or more.

    My 2c.
    Cheers
    Roger
    At least a reply worth responding to.

    Yes it's his project and he's the only real developer involved in it and mostly for the reasons I stated.

    I'm in no rush, I have all the time in the world, if he abandons it I'm sure I can commission someone to finish it for me.

    This driver will never replace an expensive servo system without increasing the voltage and current capabilities to handle significantly higher loads and larger motors and to think otherwise is foolishness.

    This is a hobby product with some light commercial/industrial small machine applications but I wouldn't expect it to drive a CAT30 size machine when the power requirement is 2KW+ per axis and just slinging the 400lbs dry table around requires more power than an outrunner can provide.

    I look at some of these 500W and 1KW outrunner BLDC motors and the peak current exceeds 50A that it's just not possible to see the rated power from the motor when the current is just not available from the drive and the efficiency of an outrunner isn't very high so don't htink input power equals output power cause it's not even close.

    The way that some of these outrunner motors are rated is so far from reality that it's hard not to laugh, not one actually came close to the rated HP on a dyno and from what I can only imagine they did to get the power was, they have calculated the HP based on the voltage and current consumption which is no where near reality.

    I've never seen a modern servo system costing $10K, our Okuma 8050 drive system costs $2700.00 and $1600.00 of this cost is the motor cost, we bought an extra to have in stock in case of a failure to reduce down time as advised by Okuma but our older 7040 machine the motors alone are $3500.00 and physically twice the size.


    During development, cost is important, as a hobbyist you can't afford to go through $100.00 in fets on a weekly basis to work out a current saturation problem or burn up a $100.00 board trying to get the code right and trying to do it with one board is nothing shy of a waste of time cause your gonna blow one at some time during development.

    Access to good quality BLDC motors designed for servo applications and not converting an outrunner reduces the risk of thermal overloading and I'm lucky to have a source of servo drives that meet this specific application for basically the same cost so I'm one step ahead of the game when the product is finally completed.


    The OP picked his software and manufacturing sources and these alone are the largest contributors to the lack of willing developers to join in, unless he's offering them free boards as an incentive most look at the cost to be involved and find it unreasonable and move on.

    The OP seems knowledgeable, I've tried to engage him in a conversation to work on a side project of a single axis SMT32F1 driver by providing the hardware for free and I didn't even get a courtesy reply so I'm not expecting anything miraculous from him.

    I'm looking at his code base and reducing and adjusting it as required for a single axis application (STMCube software is useful to a point), PCBA production cost $31.00/pc, 25 board being produced as I write and I'll send a couple off to some interested developers so having a single axis solution in the interim will be available to me as I wait for the 2-axis, 3-axis and 4-axis drivers to be completed by the OP.

  8. #128
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Quote Originally Posted by websrvr View Post
    I'm content letting you be the sole developer, if and when you give up and it's incomplete, I'll pay someone to finish it, I think it's a great project with unlimited potential and I have a million and one uses for it.
    Nice of you to whinge about others responses but man you can't see just how rude in someone else's thread you are?

    If all the aspects are so bad, and the design is so poor, and the hardware is laughable, and you expect it will fail dismally anyway, why on earth aren't you taking the source and forking it yourself?

    And if/when you get the boards done, and they're not so outrageously high in cost, I might consider buying some!

    cheers, Ian
    It's rumoured that everytime someone buys a TB6560 based board, an engineer cries!

  9. #129
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Yeah, those tiny outrunner motors look real cute, and probably go great for 5 minutes on an RC plane with a LOT of air flow. Don't think I would try using one on a CNC though.

    a CAT30 size machine when the power requirement is 2KW+ per axis
    Dunno about the 2kW. My machine runs a BT30 spindle, and the motors are rated at only 300 W (XYZ) and 500 W (spindle). Ah, but the motors are Baldor industrial DC motors or equivalent, and they are rated for 24/7 at full power. And yeah, they are a lot heavier than a tiny outrunner. BIG lumps of machined cast iron I think.
    The power rating is a bit deceptive too: I miscalculated when peck drilling some titanium and suddenly noticed I was putting about 2 kW into the 500 W motor for short periods (a few seconds each). Oh well - oops. No damage. Bottom line for me: show me the 6 hour rating. That is meaningful on a CNC.

    as a hobbyist you can't afford to go through $100.00 in fets on a weekly basis
    Been there, done that, but not as a hobbyist. Ended up with a large jam jar of blown TO220 FETS. That was before they put the intrinsic reverse diodes into the packages. The switching transients were murder.

    Let us wait and see. Nothing like the enthusiasm of a start-up.

    Cheers
    Roger

  10. #130
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Quote Originally Posted by aarggh View Post
    Nice of you to whinge about others responses but man you can't see just how rude in someone else's thread you are?

    If all the aspects are so bad, and the design is so poor, and the hardware is laughable, and you expect it will fail dismally anyway, why on earth aren't you taking the source and forking it yourself?

    And if/when you get the boards done, and they're not so outrageously high in cost, I might consider buying some!

    cheers, Ian
    I offered the OP an opportunity to produce boards at 1/2 the current cost, he rejected the offer so if you want to complain about the price complain to him, it was his decision to use an expensive solution and beyond my control.

    It would help if you could read english, then you would see I praise the concept, the design and the efforts of the OP but unfortunately that where it ends and you can't seem to grasp what I'm talking about and clearly an example of someone looking for their five minutes in the lime-light as you try to make something out of nothing.

    Why you insist on fabricating and twisting what I say to mean anything more than what I have stated is a common problem you seem to have repeatedly made and it's a good reason that you should refrain from involving yourself in matters way above your comprehension level, now I'm going back to just ignoring you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    Yeah, those tiny outrunner motors look real cute, and probably go great for 5 minutes on an RC plane with a LOT of air flow. Don't think I would try using one on a CNC though.

    a CAT30 size machine when the power requirement is 2KW+ per axis
    Dunno about the 2kW. My machine runs a BT30 spindle, and the motors are rated at only 300 W (XYZ) and 500 W (spindle). Ah, but the motors are Baldor industrial DC motors or equivalent, and they are rated for 24/7 at full power. And yeah, they are a lot heavier than a tiny outrunner. BIG lumps of machined cast iron I think.
    The power rating is a bit deceptive too: I miscalculated when peck drilling some titanium and suddenly noticed I was putting about 2 kW into the 500 W motor for short periods (a few seconds each). Oh well - oops. No damage. Bottom line for me: show me the 6 hour rating. That is meaningful on a CNC.

    as a hobbyist you can't afford to go through $100.00 in fets on a weekly basis
    Been there, done that, but not as a hobbyist. Ended up with a large jam jar of blown TO220 FETS. That was before they put the intrinsic reverse diodes into the packages. The switching transients were murder.

    Let us wait and see. Nothing like the enthusiasm of a start-up.

    Cheers
    Roger
    Hard-rail machines require massive inertia motors and a CAT30 Okuma 6030 with a 400lbs table or our CAT40 Okuma 7040 with a table weighing in at over 600lbs, 500W wouldn't move it but our new Okuma 8050 with linear rails and medium inertia motprs is over-powered and 500W would probably move it but most likely not at reasonable speeds.

    I've set aside a small budget for 75 motors and have 25 coming now as I start to build some frame around them, I'm thinking travels such as 16 x 12 x 16 in R8 / BT20 size tooling would make for a decent size hobby mill, I've got three BT20 ATC spindles already assembled and will be starting to assemble the 2HP output power 12,000RPM asynchronous servo spindle motors to drive them in the next month or two based on an existing design that has been in use for a couple of years now so I'm confident it's more than suitable for this application.

    While I've mostly used steel and cast iron in frame construction, I might try my hand at a cast-able material platform in either a true polymer or real epoxy based with multi-sized aggregate and not that crappy (non real) epoxy which is polyester resin based or perhaps something along the lines of epucrete which is a polymer based concrete type material currently used in machine.beds by some machine manufacturers but may be not cost prohibitive as I'm still looking into it.

    There's also some other concrete type material being used to cast countertops with which look promising and I'm talking with a local factory that produces some impressive looking countertops who is willing to consider a side line of casting small and medium sized machine frames if the materials holds up to some abusive vibration testing and some environment testing for durability and longevity.

    One reason for considering a cast-able material is low production cost, the only real cost is in the mold itself and precision is only in certain surfaces like rail seats and column perches, everything non relevant is purely comsmetic, 15 or 20 gallons of casting material would be less than $250.00 including the cost of the inserts and once set, no post machining is required, all precision is done in key surfaces in the mold and the molds are designed so that the key surfaces can be calibrated so it does have some excellent inexpensive frame potential in quantity productions to swallow the cost of the mold but I am willing to produce the first mold at my own expense in a machine size suitable for most home/hobby applications with a proposed travel of 16 x 12 x 16.

    We have access to some equipment at a nearby shop that has a large Nacamura-Tome 3080L composite lathe, I don't care what anyone says, a 24in 6-jaw power chuck is massive by any standard and with a 6.5in thru-hole makes larger material easier to manage, it looks like it's made of black granite and installation was done in a morning by simply pouring 4 puddles of concrete, setting the lathe on the puddles and leveling it before the concrete set and then powered up and ready for use the next morning, of course this particular shop has some impressively large toys and it's always a treat to go over and ogle some of the modern technology used in mold, stamp and die making equipment such as frame-less articulating arm milling machines that can machine in any 3D spatial position of the work area with extreme precision and Ezzel, a local grinding shop that does some insane precision grinding makes the hardest job look easy so I have some perks being in the industry.

  11. #131
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    our new Okuma 8050 with linear rails and medium inertia motors is over-powered and 500W would probably move it but most likely not at reasonable speeds.
    I should have mentioned that my machine uses linear bearings everywhere. That does make it easy to move.
    In fact, what was almost rather frightening was the time I stripped off the X axis ball nut and tilted the whole machine slightly. The carriage went flying at just a few degrees off horizontal. Serious oops moment there!

    Speed - well, more power => more acceleration. Very true. But my machine is a 'hobby' machine: even though I do some production work (for sale), I am not dependant on it for a living. It is fast enough. A nice BT30 spindle, up to 3,500 RPM. It does a nice finish on Al and steel.

    cheers
    Roger

  12. #132
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    Re: Open source low cost servomotor controller

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    our new Okuma 8050 with linear rails and medium inertia motors is over-powered and 500W would probably move it but most likely not at reasonable speeds.
    I should have mentioned that my machine uses linear bearings everywhere. That does make it easy to move.
    In fact, what was almost rather frightening was the time I stripped off the X axis ball nut and tilted the whole machine slightly. The carriage went flying at just a few degrees off horizontal. Serious oops moment there!

    Speed - well, more power => more acceleration. Very true. But my machine is a 'hobby' machine: even though I do some production work (for sale), I am not dependant on it for a living. It is fast enough. A nice BT30 spindle, up to 3,500 RPM. It does a nice finish on Al and steel.

    cheers
    Roger
    I've been manipulated into accepting the following concept, there is little difference from a machine for hobby use and a machine for commercial/production use, I should expect the same performance, repeatability, precision and power based on the platform size.

    I would never build a wooden router or power one with a dremel or porter-cable wood router or a cheap water cooled china high speed ER20 spindle, if the spindle is not designed to be air cooled and used continuously and properly power rated such as actual output of 24,000RPM 3.0KW then the spindle is considered garbage just like those cheap china 24,000RPM water cooled spindle rated at 3.0KW, but are 220V/10A and really only outputs 1.43KW and for mills it better be an S1 rated 2.2KW (3HP) output (220V/12.75A) 100-10,000RPM asynchronous servo spindle motor driving a BT20 or R8 spindle or an S1 rated 3.0KW (4HP) output (220V/17.25A) 100-10,000RPM asynchronous servo spindle motor driving a BT30 spindle and these are considered my bare minimum power requirement if I expect to do some real work.

    Yes I can make a machine that moves along with 100W DC servo motors but if I can't cut stainless at reasonable feeds because it stalls an axis then I've made a wrong choice in axis motion power and need to make a new choice immediately.


    The cost of 220V AC servos with drivers is pretty cheap now, 750W motor and drivers can be had for about $300.00 new and 16in travel, 1/2in DIA 0.100in pitch ballscrews are about $150.00 and provide 300IPM rapids and 100IPM cut speeds so a small mill with sufficient power to cost steel and aluminum shouldn't be expensive but a 500W BLDC servo and driver should be doable for half the cost and still be within the axis motion power requirement.

    If a 1in DIA 0.200in pitch ballscrew is employed then I would expect nothing less than 750W using a 2:1 reducer and still see 300IPM rapids and 150IPM cutting speeds without stalling an axis and yes, 300IPM rapids on 16in of axis travel looks fast, using 1.5KW motors and no gear reducer gives you 600IPM of rapids and 300IPM of cut speed without stalling and becomes mandatory when large mass comes into play like moving and stopping 400lbs tables.

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