[workaholic_ro]

It has to be new and cheap, CNC, 3 axis, with an x travel around 1500 mm, 0.02 mm precision.
What kind of machine do you recommend to keep the price as low as possible and still do a decent job: knee mill, gantry with moving table or else ? I don't think that the budget would fit a VMC, considering the x travel.
If anyone could recommend a specific machine (chinese for my budget?) I would appreciate.
I jhave already asked for a few quotations, but I would like to learn from others experience prior to buying.
The budget is around 20000 Euro without tools, maybe more for a very interesting machine. Possible ?Thanks in advance.
(The dies will be used for metal sheet processing, I am also thinking about making some parts, short runs and not mass production)

[underthetire]

Nothing for that little money and that size is going to cut steel for dies.. Your off by at least 8x I think.

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[Hezz]

It has to be new and cheap, CNC, 3 axis, with an x travel around 1500 mm, 0.02 mm precision.
What kind of machine do you recommend to keep the price as low as possible and still do a decent job: knee mill, gantry with moving table or else ? I don't think that the budget would fit a VMC, considering the x travel.
If anyone could recommend a specific machine (chinese for my budget?) I would appreciate.
I jhave already asked for a few quotations, but I would like to learn from others experience prior to buying.
The budget is around 20000 Euro without tools, maybe more for a very interesting machine. Possible ?Thanks in advance.
(The dies will be used for metal sheet processing, I am also thinking about making some parts, short runs and not mass production)

I don't think that there is any machine realistically that big that you could buy for that price. You would even have trouble getting an old large used vertical machining center in good condition for that price.

you are talking high quality machines that size are probably 100000-200000 Euro and Chinese ones maybe 1/2 that price.

If there is one new machine on the market that would fill your needs there would probably be only one Chinese machine. Look in that market.

Dies are usually made from hard to cut tough alloy steels so you would need a very rigid bed mill with a lot of horsepower and a large amount of memory to hold all of the surface files. Unless you want to drip feed from a PC which has been done successfully for years. Also, a high speed very accurate spindle would be very desirable to get very good surface finish on the die surface. Otherwise lots of hand working is required.

this would be about the cheapest new machine from an American company that would just do the job.

Haas VF-6/50 | Haas Automation

150,000.00 USD. Not sure what the exchange rate with Euros is right now or what is available on the European market that would be in a similar price range.

EDIT:

Current exchange rate is USD to Euro is about .89 so 20000 Euro is about 22000 USD. My guess is that you would have to increase your budget by at least 6 times to get a new machine that you wanted.

[Tkamsker]

Hi i dont think that for Steel this is possible i would have suggested to take one machine like this Universalfr and retrofit it with 3 Servos and Do use the linear dro readout to correct it to your Requirements Our maschines Are produced in Europe and in closed Loop setup it can do measured 0,025 for sure maybe with grinded spindles better what y distance Are you Talking ? And which clamping sitze you Need maybe. Have an idea Thomas


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[G59]

I have to agree with Hezz on this one especially when "new and cheap" is desired.
Maybe you forgot to type a '0' into the 20000 Euro.
1.5m in X means this is not a little toy, so the machine becomes quite large and heavy if it is to hold any kind of precision.

Good luck.

[workaholic_ro]

Any opinion about this one ?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...838.0.0.YOxN61

[G59]

Any opinion about this one ?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...838.0.0.YOxN61

What are the specs on it? No info other than a pic.

[workaholic_ro]

Attachment 333582Attachment 333582

[Hezz]

Any opinion about this one ?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...838.0.0.YOxN61

A machine like that might work for you. I am assuming the price is 15000 for the smaller manual model and 25000 for the biggest CNC model. It would not be the ideal machine to have but
you might be able to work with it. A problem would be no chip removal conveyer which is important when machining really large molds. But if you stand by the machine to manually remove
the chips when they start to pile up I think it would work. Maybe not the best surface finish but you can work a mold with small pneumatic tools to get the mold finish you need if the spindle is not up to par.

Normally, you would want a spindle that can do at least 6000-8000 RPM or higher for mold finishing.

I don't know, it's hard to say how good the spindle is but it claims to only go to 1450 RPM so that would be a sign of a lower cost spindle. That machine is probably designed for heavy cutting but not fine surface finishing.

With a large mold the spindle could be running at high speed non stop for several hours so spindle cooling could be a problem on a lower cost mill. I think that it could hog out the mold just fine. The RPM are not high enough for getting a high quality surface finish with a small tool so hand work will probably be required. Since there will be larger scallups from the use of a larger diameter tool at slower speeds. But I guess you can use small step overs with a large radius tool at slower RPM's and get close to what you want.

Of course you could always stop the program every half hour or so to let the spindle cool a little bit if that became a problem but at only 1450 this might not be an issue.

the other issue is that the coolant is going to splash all over so you might have to make some kind of a partial shroud or cover to contain it. You might also need a larger coolant reservoir system or to add some better filtering.

The XK2250 seems to be the one with at least 1500mm X axis travel. Maybe that is the one for 25000. If that is the case the CNC model might be more money.

I'm thinking that a big mill like that would already use ballscrews and servo motors for positioning. Even the manual model probably would. They just have to add a CNC controller for CNC program use. If that is the case the CNC model might not be that much more money.

It looks like they make a model called the XKV2250 that has a coolant shroud and is set up more for CNC. That's the one you want.

The last issue you need to consider is the machining time. Large molds take a long time to machine. And since this machine only does 1450 RPM it is going to take a lot longer to machine a mold because you are going to have to use slower feed rates due to the slower spindle speeds. And of course you are going to have to do manual tool changes.

[hanermo]

The specs seem correct - 6800 kg for mass, ISO50 spindle (this is BIG), 7.5 kW spindle motor.

I built a machine of this size ! -
with a moving table, and bridge mill, so its inherently much more rigid.
A C frame like Haas, and the picture mill, is much less rigid because there is no frontal support, at least 8x less rigid (half the free length cubed=8; add secondary support == 10-12x increase in rigidity)

It took about 20.000 hours work, and 100.000€ cash, as in current value of all tools and parts.

Currently undergoing final versions of version 5 upgrade.
My mill is about 2400 kg in steel, and fully supported moving table (600 mm now on y, can be upgraded).

Portal free length is 1600 mm or x axis free space, and movement on x is upto 1400 mm.

I sold machines like the VF6 (over 60 of them), so..
From experience, molds in steel for auto companies, were finished by users with 1 mm end-mill, running around 10.000 rpm, for 50-100 hours continuous, 24x7.

The parts for a new one will cost about 15-25 k, so a new machine would be around 40k and up.
The variance is due to many things..
I don´t have through coolant for spindle or a chip conveyor, for example.

My new ISO30 spindle is rated for 7500 rpm.
Its theoretically good for 5-7 kW.

I hope to get 1 kW, at best maybe 3 kW, out of it.
1 kW is commercially successful, and 3 kW is more than I hope for, although theoretically should work fine.

For making molds, its the finishing that takes time, and it only uses about 0.1 kW of power.

Of note is that these molds at 2 m or so long, cost 200-300.000€ each to the customer, and can mass 4-12 tons.

Also note that the chinese machine says only 1000 kg on table.
Wont work for You, at all, for molds.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...838.0.0.YOxN61

For example, I am now using Hiwin 35 mm linear guides on x and z,
rated for 20.000 kg load (4 of) on x, and
50.000 kg, 12 of, on z.
Ballscrews are 32/5 mm.

Baseplates, for example, are 250x800 mm, 25 mm thick, tool steel.
Flat on ground, the vertical portals rest on them.

[G59]

Those specs are so not good enough for any serious mold/die making. Mainly table weight capacity and slow spindle.

Look for a double column fixed gantry mill with 7.5kw spindle minimum, with at least 10k rpm. Cat 40...ish would be much better. Even ISO or BT30 could work but not good for hard heavy milling, which you'll want, to rough out the metal as quickly as possible, because finishing can take many, many more hours.
Why brand new?? Some used machines are just as reliable as those new cheap iron from China.
Just my thoughts, happy hunting.

[workaholic_ro]

Attachment 334326Advice taken, budget reconsidered, thank you.
Double column fixed gantry, 15kw, 8000 rpm, 24T arm type ATC, 55mm Hiwin linear guide ways with 4 rolling blocks, Mitsubishi M70V controler. XYZ travel 2000x1000x600mm.
Too much for what we currently need, but very tempted at around 70k, 3th and 4th axes available for extra money. Still BT40, will see what we can do about this, 4.5 ton on table.
Thís is all what they told me so far, but there is more on the website. Opinions on this one ?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...857.0.0.74IDQy

Those specs are so not good enough for any serious mold/die making. Mainly table weight capacity and slow spindle.

Look for a double column fixed gantry mill with 7.5kw spindle minimum, with at least 10k rpm. Cat 40...ish would be much better. Even ISO or BT30 could work but not good for hard heavy milling, which you'll want, to rough out the metal as quickly as possible, because finishing can take many, many more hours.
Why brand new?? Some used machines are just as reliable as those new cheap iron from China.
Just my thoughts, happy hunting.

[G59]

Still BT40, will see what we can do about this,

Nothing wrong with BT40 tool holders. They can work just as hard as Cat40 tooling. For myself the spindle speed is a little low, but at that price, you can't ask for too much. With 15kw it should rough out the blanks pretty quickly. This machine seems well built according to the description they have on their site and it comes with a good controller. Mitsubishi is on par with most of the big players out there.

Questions I would ask however are, how is their after sales support? Being that this is no Chevalier or Okuma, who is their representative in Europe that can do troubleshooting or does the repairs when the machine is still under warranty?

[Hezz]

Attachment 334326Advice taken, budget reconsidered, thank you.
Double column fixed gantry, 15kw, 8000 rpm, 24T arm type ATC, 55mm Hiwin linear guide ways with 4 rolling blocks, Mitsubishi M70V controler. XYZ travel 2000x1000x600mm.
Too much for what we currently need, but very tempted at around 70k, 3th and 4th axes available for extra money. Still BT40, will see what we can do about this, 4.5 ton on table.
Thís is all what they told me so far, but there is more on the website. Opinions on this one ?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...857.0.0.74IDQy

Yes, this is more like the machine you really need. The design looks well built and solid. The long travel axis is well supported and it should handle heavy mold dies well.

It looks to me like it offers a lot at about 1/2 the price of an entry level American CNC machine of comparable size. This would be much better than the last machine you were looking at for doing large molds and dies.

I think the issue that you really need to consider is what G59 discussed. Can you get help and support for this machine if problems arise. Only you can decide on this factor and if you have some local cnc machine experts
that can repair it you are good. Since the controller is known model this is good. Some times the hardest things to fix are buried hidden setup codes in the controller that are undocumented.

[workaholic_ro]

Attachment 334676

New offers, new thoughts. If in the same price range should I prefer this VMC (XH718) or stick to the gantry type ?
http://www.lunanmt.com/html/product/48.html

[G59]

Ok workaholic,
First things first, How heavy are the pieces you are going to machine your die from?
How large will the workpieces be? These two questions alone make up for 70% of your choice of machine.
Next is how fast does it need to be , or in other words, how much time do you have to wait for the machine to complete a die or mold?
This is probably the most important question if you are using it for any commercial use. Time is money, and as mentioned before, roughing will crudely bring your workpiece into the desired shape using the biggest tools possible, so they require a lot of power(torque) from your spindle. Finishing to final dimensions and creating an acceptable finish, can be a long process and typically it uses much smaller tools with radiused ends(ball mills), and they require higher rpm's to be efficient.
Another thing any serious mold maker should consider is getting a 5 axis machine, which greatly reduces the time having to create multiple setups of the workpiece. Again the "time" element comes into play. Not only that, but a 5 axis machine, greatly reduces the hand finishing and polishing process that most molds will need. Have you thought of 5 axis??
What about serviceability of the machine? Are spare parts available? What about the safety aspect that should be built in to prevent mishaps during operation?
So as you can see, many things affect the decision of which machine is proper for your requirements.
To answer your secondary question, No, it doesn't have to be a gantry mill. C framed machines have been around for ages and are used everyday doing exactly what your looking for and with much tighter tolerances than 0.02mm.

[Hezz]

Attachment 334676

New offers, new thoughts. If in the same price range should I prefer this VMC (XH718) or stick to the gantry type ?
http://www.lunanmt.com/html/product/48.html

Both could work for you but lets assume that the cost, spindle and controller are about roughly equal. The dual column gantry has 500mm more travel in X than what you wanted so this represents larger job sizes that you can do in the future. So that is a plus.

Also, the design is somewhat better supported on the X axis for heavy molds. But it may require a larger footprint and somewhat more initial setup time for the original installation since it might take longer to level the machine. But once the machine is setup it will be more rigid and less likely to allow the heavy mold material to vibrate. Now one big thing in favor of the dual column is that there is much more room to get mold dies in and out of the machine with an overhead crane. This is the single most important issue in my view after knowing that the machine can handle the weight. These molds are going to be really heavy and require jockeying into position with an overhead gantry. It looks to me that the whole top of the dual column machine is open but the other one only has a small opening at the top of the doors. This will make the XH718 much harder to load and unload and setup. Once the material is in the machine I think that the spindle and power is going to be the important thing.

5 Axis would be ideal but would really send the cost of purchase a lot higher. You should look into it though to compare the price difference. It would be worth it if you could get it for only 3000-5000 extra Euro.

Now, here is another issue. If 90% of the time you are going to be working on smaller parts and molds, the XH718 would probably be easier for the machinist to work on and setup. So if you are expecting to only do occasional large molds and dies. you would likely save setup time with the XH718. I'm partly making an assumption here. It's just my experience with most C frame machines is that the table and spindle are at a closer distance to the machinist and makes it easier to work on the machine on the inside when doing a setup. This is one of the reasons that these type of machines are so popular. But getting large things in and out is the problem.

The dual column machine looks like it has doors on two sides of the machine to make working on the machine easier and getting things in and out easier. But bear in mind that you will often have to get inside this machine to do things. Because of how far things are spread out.

[underthetire]

That gantry looks like a pretty good deal! Usually double column like that are far more rigid. They also usually require a good 1peice foundation.

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[G59]

These molds are going to be really heavy and require jockeying into position with an overhead gantry.

A very good point.
Forgot about that.

[zmajmr]

I saw this on ebay, I do not know is it good/too small
CNC Fräsmaschine Maho Mahomat 500 Bj. 1993 mit Wechseltisch SONDERPREIS !!!! | eBay