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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Uncategorised MetalWorking Machines > HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    9

    HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    ** This is my first post to the group, my apologies if I use the wrong terminology, I'm still learning **

    Hey Guys/Gals,

    The story starts out with an issue last week with a HAAS HA5C Rotary/Indexer that is used in one of our Matsuura RA2F's as a "Semi-4th Axis" via a Remote Cable. I ran through the Operators Manual and followed the Troubleshooting Guide word for word. The conclusion was that there was something bound in the Spindle or Worm Gear. The 5C wouldn't index upon command, but everything else (Remote Cable, Power Cable, Encoder Cable) checked out. The 5C would index without the Spindle Lock Cover installed, but once it was installed, the Spindle bound up and wouldn't index. The Indexer has since been sent off to a 3rd party shop for service, since HAAS no longer services this specific Indexer.

    After the aforementioned 5C was sent out, Management requested that we remove another 5C from our RoboDrill and install it in the RA2F to complete the parts run. One of our Sr. Machinists/Op.'s removed and installed the 5C from the RoboDrill into the RA2F. When he started to runt he program for the parts, everything was fine. We ran a total of 5 parts while monitoring the 5C and didn't have a single issue. About an hour went by and I was informed by the same Sr. Machinist/Op. that the 5C wasn't indexing properly, or at all. Confused by this, we went back to the RA2F to check it out.

    Upon further inspection of the issue, he was right. After a reset of the RA2F, as well as the 5C, the 5C would index, but only about half of what it should. If we set the step for 90 degrees, it only traveled about 45 degrees. I checked the Control Input by using small jumpers across Pin 1/2 (Finish Signal) and I also jumpered Pin 3/4 (Cycle Start) as instructed by the Manual. Both checked out fine and didn't show any signs of damage. The CNC Interface Cable also checked out when it was executing/sending an M function to the 5C. The only thing I found that may be an issue is when the 5C is powered off, it was reading between 1-4 Ohms (varying) between Pins 1/2, which indicates that the cicuit is open? The manual indicates that if Parameter 1 is set to "1" the circuit should be open while powered off, if it shows any resistance the Relay is bad?

    We can now get the 5C to index, we just cannot get it to index the correct value. When we try to get the 5C to index 90 degrees, we end up with about half of 90, between 40 and 45 degrees. We tried doubling the the M Code to see if the 5C would actually index as commanded, but the 5C still wouldn't index correctly. We actually zero'ed everything out of the 5C as well as probed the part to ensure we were all lined up three times, but we still weren't coming up with the correct index. While I know what I measured, I just have a hard time believing two 5C's went bad on the same machine, within two weeks. The problem itself is acting like a mechanical problem, but I'm still not 100% convinced it is. I've triple checked the parameters, all of which are correct. The cables are all good, so there's nothing electrical causing the issue.

    Long story short: Do you have any ideas or input on what I could check next, or have you ever had this issue before with a 5C? I haven't received a phone call back from our HAAS Rep. yet and I've also been unable to find much information on this type of issue online. The manual is pretty general and I don't have any electrical schematics or diagrams to troubleshoot the Relay, so I'm rather lost at this point. The next step would be to pull it out of the RA2F and check inside of the 5C, I just wanted to post about the issue before I pull it apart on Monday.

    Any input, advice, or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance (My apologies if I've worded anything wrong, I'm still fairly new to CNC, so I have a lot to learn still).

    Jerry

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    6028

    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    Does it index correctly if using the start button on the Haas controller? If not, certainly something wrong in the indexer.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    9
    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    Does it index correctly if using the start button on the Haas controller? If not, certainly something wrong in the indexer.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk
    It will index correctly from the HAAS Controller using Cycle Start, but only if we Cycle Start and allow it to run the preprogrammed steps; 90, 180, 270 (I believe?).

    If we're in the middle of a program and the Matsuura sends an M Command to the 5C for it to execute an index (which on this Machine is M23) the 5C will only index about 1/2 of the commanded rotation (ie: 40-45 out of a command of 90 degrees).

    What has me puzzled though is this:

    - The fact that it ran 8 parts just fine, and then dumped it's ability to index, which would sound like a mechanical problem.

    - I'm still getting weird Ohm readings between Pin 3/4 on the Control Remote Input when the Controller is powered off, which bounce between 1.2-4.1 Ohms sporadically, even when Parameter 1 is set to 1, so the circuit should be open. Which would indicate a bad Relay in the Controller itself.

    - But if we had a bad Relay, the 5C wouldn't index at all, which it does when we Cycle Start from the Controller.

    The issue looks like a mechanical issue, that's only there when an M23 Execute Command is sent to the Controller. We tried changing the M-Code to M80 for the Index Command as well, but we were unsuccessful there as well. We thought maybe the 5C couldn't read the command due to differences in programming, but the issue was still there.

    Thank you for the response though! I appreciate it very much.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    6028

    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    Reason why I ask...
    There are settings in the Haas indexer control for M codes. One is momentary, one is maintained, then of coarse normally open or closed, just like the finish signal has options. I'm guessing here, but I think your Haas may be set up for a momentary, where the matsuura is holding the M code until finish signal.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    9

    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    I'll go with it! I'm still new to CNC Maintenance, as well as the HA5C, so I'll take any suggestions!

    Thank you for your help Tire! Do you by chance know the following:

    1) How I would access the settings to adjust the specific settings your referring to? - Is it in the Parameter settings?
    2) If it is an issue with how the Matsuura is sending it's M Codes to the HAAS Controller versus how the RoboDrill sent it's M Codes, why would it run 8 parts and then lose it's ability to index correctly? (I'm merely trying to learn with this question, I don't mean to question your advice, I appreciate it.)

    Thank you in advance Tire!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    9

    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    Reason why I ask...
    There are settings in the Haas indexer control for M codes. One is momentary, one is maintained, then of coarse normally open or closed, just like the finish signal has options. I'm guessing here, but I think your Haas may be set up for a momentary, where the matsuura is holding the M code until finish signal.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk
    Sorry for the multiple reply's Tire, I just ran through the Manual and had a couple questions.. Again.. :stickpoke

    I found some of the settings you were reffering to in Parameter 2: 0 = NO, 1 = NC, 2 = Optional Relay No. 2 Pulsed at end of Prog. Are these the settings you were talking about?

    I just wanted to toss this out there as well, I appreciate the help and patience while working with me on this:

    While I was reading through the Parameters, I found that Parameter 9 is used for controlling the Encoder Steps per Programmed Unit. Would this also fit with the issue? Maybe the HAAS Controller was setup differently for the RoboDrill and the setting for it is different than the settings needed for the RA2F? Which is why when we're indexing, the actual rotation of the 5C doesn't match the rotation on the Controller?

    Thanks again Tire. :cheers:

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    6028

    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    If the indexers were mixed up with the controller's, yes encoder count could be off. Typically a fanuc like a robo drill would be set up of NO and Pulse at end. If the Matsuura is a yasnac that can be different, I don't remember yasnac too well.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk

  8. #8
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    Sep 2016
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    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    If the indexers were mixed up with the controller's, yes encoder count could be off. Typically a fanuc like a robo drill would be set up of NO and Pulse at end. If the Matsuura is a yasnac that can be different, I don't remember yasnac too well.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk
    Okay, I'll check both Parameter 2 and 9 in the morning. Thanks again Tire.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    Sep 2016
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    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    If the indexers were mixed up with the controller's, yes encoder count could be off. Typically a fanuc like a robo drill would be set up of NO and Pulse at end. If the Matsuura is a yasnac that can be different, I don't remember yasnac too well.

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk
    So far today:

    - Verified that the Controller matched the 5C.

    - Went through the Parameters, everything seemed fine.

    - Parameter 3 = 0, Parameter 9 = 4000, Parameter 20 = 3.

    - If I change Parameter 9 to 8000, the 5C will index 180 degrees, but it will over rotate with each Cycle Start after the first Cycle Start.

    - M-Codes are getting to the Controller

    - Finish Signals are getting to the RA.

    I'm still not 100% sure why we are getting this specific issue, but it's still there. Waiting on a call back from Selway and HAAS at the moment.
    It's weird though, if we have the program set for 180 degrees and I change Param. 9 to double the original value, it will index the 180 degrees on the first Cycle. After that, it'll lose itself with each Cycle.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    6028

    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    Is the Haas set up for incremental or absolute?

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk

  11. #11
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    Sep 2016
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    Re: HAAS HA5C on Matusra RA2F - Issues with 2 different HAAS Rotarys/Indexers

    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    Is the Haas set up for incremental or absolute?

    Sent from my A3-A20FHD using Tapatalk
    Figured it out!

    I finally got a hold of a HAAS Factory Rep, who gave me the Parameters. After looking over the Parameters, all looked good, so I went back to the mechanical side of things.

    I slowed the feed rate down and the problem went away. After I opened the motor housing up, I found out that the drive side (not the motor side) coupling which connects to the "love joy" was loose. Which is why it wasn't indexing the requested rotation and would lose itself randomly.

    Thanks for all of the help, Tire! I appreciate it! It sucks being new at something when you've done it for so long. LOL

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

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