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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.
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  1. #21
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    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    No point for that Steve as numbers were already verified with other precise equipment.
    Quote Originally Posted by CNCer__ View Post
    ...
    Measurement with the engineering square (grade 00) showing the same numbers, unfortunately it's not the equipment or measuring method.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    1943

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    I know that you used an engineering square and I see nothing inherently wrong with holding it in the vise as you have it. However, even though it is a "certified" engineering square that you said you have paperwork for, who made the square and who certified the square. I zoomed in on your picture and didn't see a manufacturer name for the square. Is is an certified import? Kind of like your PCNC 1100 is an import mill with QA certification papers?

    Maybe I just didn't see anywhere where you said that you had actually checked the squareness of your square, but I would actually do check it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    And how is it possible to hold to such that one side reads perfectly parallel to the Y axis, yet the X axis is NOT perfectly parallel to the X axis, unless either the square or the machine is NOT actually square?

    Answer: It's not. The way he's holding the square may not be ideal, but it CANNOT explain what the video shows. Since he indicated the square is high-quality, the only logical answer is the machine is out of spec.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    What I'm saying is holding the part the way he is, with the long side against the movable jaw, and the narrow side against the fixed jaw he's actually allowing the movable jaw to twist.

  4. #24
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    Jun 2006
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    2512

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Seems to me that if the granite angle were misaligned in the x axis then it would also show as being misaligned in the y axis and this is not the case as indicated by the video!

    Phil

  5. #25
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    Sep 2016
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    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Seebold View Post
    What I'm saying is holding the part the way he is, with the long side against the movable jaw, and the narrow side against the fixed jaw he's actually allowing the movable jaw to twist.
    Steve please do not try "help" me in my thread anymore as you simply spamming with theories like this. Open your case titled "myth and truth about clamping method" and discuss there your theories, thank you.

  6. #26
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    May 2014
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    170

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    His theory is solid on the jaw tilt. Though logic would dictate that if a square shows 0 in one axis the second axis would run zero regardless of the jaws.

    If the gibs are tighter then they need to be (I believe thats what you said) would it not begin binding if an axis is tapered? They would machine and grind each axis individually as well as saddle and table and bed and saddle.

    So I would think if you were running a none taper into a taper it would bind to the point of locking.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNCer__ View Post
    Steve please do not try "help" me in my thread anymore as you simply spamming with theories like this. Open your case titled "myth and truth about clamping method" and discuss there your theories, thank you.
    I was just trying to help, but I guess you know more than me, but hey, I've only been doing this for 55 plus years so what do I know.

    Good luck.
    You can buy GOOD PARTS or you can buy CHEAP PARTS, but you can't buy GOOD CHEAP PARTS.

  8. #28
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    Jun 2014
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    1777

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Steve is correct in his statement of cocking the movable jaw by clamping on one side.

    My machine is off by much more than factory specs too.

    There was a fellow on the forum that sent his out and had it trammed in, I havent seen any more posts on that thread, so evidently he must have been satisfied with the results.
    These machines are a lightweight cost effective way to CNC, and I am satisfied with mine but I dont make large super precision parts either.
    mike sr

  9. #29
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    Aug 2014
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    889

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Wow, so much discussion on how to do this and that and blah, blah, blah.......................
    No one mentions that if it is out of spec, there is no provision to adjust the err......

    If you are sure of the accuracy of your granite square, first thing i'd do is stop using the vise. Lay the square flat on it's side on the table and dial in the long face to X until "0.000". Then check the Y axis. So simple.
    If it's out of spec then contact Tormach for full refund including shipping.

  10. #30
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    Mar 2008
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    256

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by popspipes View Post
    Steve is correct in his statement of cocking the movable jaw by clamping on one side.

    My machine is off by much more than factory specs too.

    There was a fellow on the forum that sent his out and had it trammed in, I havent seen any more posts on that thread, so evidently he must have been satisfied with the results.
    These machines are a lightweight cost effective way to CNC, and I am satisfied with mine but I dont make large super precision parts either.
    Yeah. But, as has already been noted in this thread, if one side dials true, then the other side should as well, unless the part moved between dialing one side and the other? Can we please respect OP's request and drop this now? It's not the problem. Unless you think the clamping method actually warped the granite square.

  11. #31
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    Jul 2004
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    1424

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    No one mentions that if it is out of spec, there is no provision to adjust the err......
    Beat you too it. Post #8.

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ml#post1947616

    Quote Originally Posted by tmarks11 View Post
    ... X and Y axis weren't operating perpendicular to each other...Not really an adjustment for that.
    Like G59 said. Values out of spec and doesn't match the inspection sheet? Call Tormach and ask them to fix it.

    They don't have to send you a new stand and mill.

    The problem is with ONE component: table dovetails are ground crooked. That is the only thing that establishes X/Y perpindicularity. Get them to send you a new one. Replacing the table shouldn't take that long.
    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3, Grizzly G0709 lathe, Clausing 8520 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.

  12. #32
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    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Beat you too it. Post #8.
    Ooops, missed it. LOL

  13. #33
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    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    Wow, so much discussion on how to do this and that and blah, blah, blah.......................
    No one mentions that if it is out of spec, there is no provision to adjust the err......
    This is a good point. The answer to OP's OQ is: Your machine perpendicularity appears to be out. There are no provisions to adjust. A loose gib could explain the problem, but if you've attempted gib adjustment, there's nothing else you can do without modifiying the saddle, which is the large casting between the table and the base. Sorry for your luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    If you are sure of the accuracy of your granite square, first thing i'd do is stop using the vise. Lay the square flat on it's side on the table and dial in the long face to X until "0.000". Then check the Y axis. So simple.
    If it's out of spec then contact Tormach for full refund including shipping.
    Not necessary. There's nothing wrong with how he dialed the square. If it's accurate, and dials true on one side, it should dial true on the other, unless you are proposing that the clamping method actually warped it.

  14. #34
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    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Not necessary. There's nothing wrong with how he dialed the square. If it's accurate, and dials true on one side, it should dial true on the other, unless you are proposing that the clamping method actually warped it.
    I only suggested getting rid of the vise as a means of eliminating any more potential innacuracies inherent with fixturing. That way, he is 100% referencing on a known variable(the square).

    I don't believe twisting of, or bending of the granite square is even an issue on the two faces he is measuring. After all, granite doesn't give like steel.

  15. #35
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    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    I don't believe twisting of, or bending of the granite square is even an issue on the two faces he is measuring. After all, granite doesn't give like steel.
    Exactly. It's preposterous (to think that it would). So the method of fixturing is irrelevant as long as it's not actually loose.

    ETA: everything in brackets, for clarification.

  16. #36
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    7063

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmarks11 View Post
    The problem is with ONE component: table dovetails are ground crooked. That is the only thing that establishes X/Y perpindicularity. Get them to send you a new one. Replacing the table shouldn't take that long.
    Replacing one part of the machine is not even remotely an option. Replacing any one part always requires re-working other parts. If you replace the table, you have to re-scrape the X gib, most likely starting with a brand new gib. If you replace the saddle, you have to re-scrape both X and Y gibs. Otherwise, the result of swapping out one part could make things ever worse. These machines are NOT built with interchangeable parts - each one is hand-tweaked after machining.

    To me, given that the machine in question is located in (I believe) Sweden the most viable option would be to petition Tormach to allow the OP to have the machine re-worked by a local (in Sweden) machine specialist, at Tormachs expense. This would not only be FAR faster and cheaper for all involved, but the OP would end up with a "better than new spec" machine.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  17. #37
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    7063

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    BTW - Given that these machines have Turcite ways, it is almost certain the problem can be easily resolved by nothing more than scraping the Turcite. That still, of course, requires a skilled technician who knows how to do it properly. But, it is not a difficult, or time-consuming, job for someone who knows how to do it.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    Replacing one part of the machine is not even remotely an option. Replacing any one part always requires re-working other parts. If you replace the table, you have to re-scrape the X gib, most likely starting with a brand new gib. If you replace the saddle, you have to re-scrape both X and Y gibs. Otherwise, the result of swapping out one part could make things ever worse. These machines are NOT built with interchangeable parts - each one is hand-tweaked after machining.

    To me, given that the machine in question is located in (I believe) Sweden the most viable option would be to petition Tormach to allow the OP to have the machine re-worked by a local (in Sweden) machine specialist, at Tormachs expense. This would not only be FAR faster and cheaper for all involved, but the OP would end up with a "better than new spec" machine.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    Be careful Ray. He'll be telling you to keep your opinions to yourself.
    You can buy GOOD PARTS or you can buy CHEAP PARTS, but you can't buy GOOD CHEAP PARTS.

  19. #39
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    Aug 2014
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    889

    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    To me, given that the machine in question is located in (I believe) Sweden the most viable option would be to petition Tormach to allow the OP to have the machine re-worked by a local (in Sweden) machine specialist, at Tormachs expense.
    I agree, this would be the best option for both parties.

  20. #40
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    Re: [PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Seebold View Post
    Be careful Ray. He'll be telling you to keep your opinions to yourself.
    Steve, he was telling YOU that, since you wouldn't stop talking about the vise.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCer__ View Post
    Steve please do not try "help" me in my thread anymore as you simply spamming with theories like this.
    Since Ray is actually in agreement with the OP...

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    BTW - Given that these machines have Turcite ways, it is almost certain the problem can be easily resolved by nothing more than scraping the Turcite....
    What if the problem is no necessarily the dovetails, but a misshapen gib strip, causing X axis to slide slightly off kilter. Seems like that would be detectable because you could rock the axis by applying pressure, so maybe that is not it.
    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3, Grizzly G0709 lathe, Clausing 8520 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.

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