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IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > Mitsubishi controls > Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool changer
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  1. #1
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    Sep 2012
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    Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool changer

    Greetings,

    I have recently acquired a Takumi V8a Vertical CNC Mill which is using the Mitsubishi Meldas 520an controls. I have both a programmers manual and an instruction manual for the Meldas 520an controls but nothing to speak to the mill itself overall.

    I have been fortunate enough to get the unit set in place, levelled, set up to the point there are no errors/alarms, and can manually exercise the table movements including moving/indexing the automatic tool changer (atc) forward and backward however I am unable to figure out how to load tooling into the atc. It is not covered in the manuals as far as I have been able to tell and I can see no method from the controller enunciation panel.

    I am excited to get this thing to a point of being able to create 'stuff' and recognize I have a long way to go to both understand all the procedures and in addition converting from the dialect (English translation) of the country of origin (Taiwan) and English. I have a deep back ground in industrial controls and automation and understand and have written ladder logic programs but this is the 2nd vertical CNC I have owned... the first with sophisticated controls such as these are. My 1st vertical cnc is an old Bridgeport Series II with BOSS 6 controls.... very primitive by comparison.

    Any assistance regarding this would be greatly appreciated. If anyone knows of a forum, help group, IRC channel, etc. that is specific to Takumi equipment I am all ears for that as well.

    Thanks a bunch and take care,

    hdokes

  2. #2
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    Oct 2009
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    I ran one of those machines many years ago... so my memory is a bit rusty.
    Which type of ATC does it have? Carousel or Swing-arm?
    The one I ran had the carousel type; we would load the tools manually in the spindle using the tool release button on the side of the head (in handle mode IIRC).

    Caution: on carousel type there cannot be a tool in the carousel adjacent to the spindle and a tool in the spindle at the same time or it will crash during the automatic tool change. If this is the case, manually remove the tool in the spindle before doing any tool change to be safe. [note: this does not usually apply if it is a swing-arm type as both tools will be swapped at the same time]

    1) Call up the tool number you want to load (eg. T1) by typing T1 M6 - ENTER
    2) Load the tool 1 manually in the spindle using the tool release button on the side of the head (in handle mode IIRC).
    3) Call up the next tool number you want to load (eg. T2) by typing T2 M6 - ENTER
    etc, etc,

    Note: The tool registry on the carousel type changer should have the pocket # same as tool #... if it is a swing-arm type the registry and tool number may be different even if you reset them, as the tools are changed the pockets and tool numbers will automatically change during the tool change due to the swing-arm swap... be careful!

  3. #3
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    Greetings cncdan,

    Thank you for the prompt reply.

    The ATC is a carousel. To be specific a Deta BT40x24 ATC. I can manually jog it with the side buttons but doing so does not load/unload. I can also manually release and replace the tool in the main chuck using the tool release button you mentioned.

    So here is where the neophyte in me comes in. I've had some difficulty translating the information in the manuals to on screen information. I know how to put the machine in handle mode (you made mention of IIRC and I can find no reference to that, could you elaborate on IIRC?) however I am unsure which 'screen' I should be entering the T1 M6 into. I would have thought it to be somewhere in the Tool Offset menu's as that is where you register the tool as well but have had no luck there in entering the code and having it execute. I did go to MDI mode as well and entered it and it accepts the entry but nothing happens. This may be an issue of my not knowing how to get the machine to execute commands from the prompt. While the instruction manual lays out all the screens it says nothing about loading the carousel.

    Besides the two manuals I mentioned above, do you recall if there is a more machine (the V8a as a whole) specific manual for initial machine setup and the like? I might add that the two manuals I have are specific to the Mitsubishi controls and not the machine over all. I do also have a manual for the carousel however it is has control, maintenance, and issues in large print across 2 and a half pages.... in other words.... absolutely no detail and literally a paragraph for each topic.

    May I tax your memory a bit more and see if you might be able to guide me there? I am happy to provide anything I can to assist.

    Thanks again cncdan for your reply.

    -------------- Later in the day.....

    Ok.... I believe I figured out how to enter the commands and where. Finally figured out the MDI edit screen and the MDI mode..... I think. Was able to get the commands you suggested entered in and after returning all axis to their home reference I was able to push the cycle start button and get it to actually cycle the commands and load a holder into the carousel. I had a grin from ear to ear until I went to repeat the process and now can't get it to react at all again. There are no alarms, there is a message 'T03 Block Stop 0304'. I am trying to determine if this means I have reached the end of the running program or not and if I need to set the reference to run again back to the 1st line. I have years of experience writing PLC ladder logic programs and higher level languages such as C, Basic, Assembler, Pascal, etc. and have written some very basic G-Code programs for the Bridgeport Series II cnc but this is my first outing with a full blown CNC Center and all it's features. So... the following are what I believe my conditions were when I got it to cycle the tool changer:

    1. Machine Mode: MDI
    2. Axis positioning: All home
    3. Monitor Mode: MDI edit
    4. Make sure program to run is shown on the screen (in this case saved it as program 100 and named it 'test')
    5. Push cycle start button to execute the program.
    6. Now have message of T03 Block Stop 0304'
    7. No error messages accept when I attempt to push cycle start button again. Get 'M01' reference flashing on the screen then disappearing.

    Does that help you any?

  4. #4
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    Oct 2009
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    Hi hdokes,

    My memory is a bit foggy, its been over ten years since running that machine, but I'm thinking the M6 may not be required in manual mode to activate the toolchange.
    Try putting machine in Handle Mode, Type T1 & hit INPUT ... this may be all that is needed ?
    (by the way, IIRC stands for "If I Recall Correctly").

    If this does not work, in MDI mode type T1 M6 then CYCLE START.... see if one of these work

    Also, be aware that if the carousel is already indexed to T1 the machine will not do a tool change to T1 as it is assumed that T1 is already in the spindle, try any other tool #.

  5. #5
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    lmao.... in the world of acronyms.... I should have figured that one out (IIRC). I was to busy concentrating on PLC/MDI commands.

    Ok... just as I seen your response come in I also found this on line:

    Details MDI operation has ended the last block.
    Remedy Set the MDI operation again, and press the CYCLE START switch to start the MDl operation

    I should say that I did set the operation again several times... or so I thought I had.... but it didn't seem to make a difference. Kept telling me the program is running.

    I might add that your reference to ... 'if the carousel is already indexed to T1'... and it is... 'it will not do a tool change' may very well be the answer too. The first time (and the only successful time) I got it to work... I did not have a tool in the spindle so I have been trying to do it again hoping that the tool I loaded would now be set into T1 of the carousel. My excitement has been re-energized and I'm off to go try one of the two options here. I will report which succeeded. Wish me luck!

    Thanks again cncdan!

    ----------------------- Just slightly later.....

    Sweet Baby Jesus! It's workin. M6 is indeed required. Without it it only indexed the carousel. With it, it actually completes the tool change. I did have to identify another position. I was noticing tho that there didn't seem to be a rhyme or reason between the Tx command, i.e. T1, T2, T3 etc, and the actual position on the carousel, they were not lining up. Than I remembered your comment that the T number reference needs to be registered first. So.... I am setting about registering all 24 positions and will then check to see if the Tx position and the actual carousel position correlate. I will report here one last time with those results and a finished outline of what I had to do should someone else have these issues. Not certain how popular these particular machines are but I did find out that Takumi did open up a demonstration and sales store in Indianapolis (an hours drive away) just this last July so I will be checking them out too.

    Thank you for your help cncdan. I have a feeling this won't be my only request.

    --------------------- And just slightly later still.....

    So I registered names to positions in the Tool Edit / Register screen... i.e. 1 to 1, 2 to 2, 3 to 3, etc. Entered a command of T1 M6 and it went to position 24 and loaded the tool into position 24 of the carousel. Then entered T2 M6 and it loaded the next tool into position 23, T3 M6 into position 22, etc. Seemed a bit strange. As position 1 was still empty, I entered a command of T1 M6 again and it went to position 24 and began to pull that tool out. As I had another tool in the spindle I was afraid of a crash and hit the E stop just as it began to pull the tools from their respective fixture and then realized afterwards that there would be no crash.... just an interchanging of the tools. So now I have the swing arm in an other than home position with an alarm stating such and am trying to figure out how to 'manually' get the swing arm back into home to clear the alarm.... 2 steps forward 1 step back... right?

    --------------------- And finally....

    Sweet Baby Back Ribs!!! Found a procedure for backing out of an unfinished tool change and and darned if it didn't work! Worked like a champ! Tomorrow I should be making rubix cubes out of aluminum blocks I'm advancing so fast............................................. Not! (chair)

    Gotta admit tho... one moment this can have you pulling what hair one has left completely out.... the next it can have you singing "oh yeah.... I'm a machinist.... uh huh!"

    Ok.... to finish up my task here and then provide final thoughts/procedures here should anyone else find themselves in this kinda pickle.

  6. #6
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    Hey sounds like you're making progress - Great !

    You mentioned swing-arm back there... Now that's a slightly different animal than the "Umbrella" type carousel that I was referring to.
    In this case, when the swing arm switches tools from the spindle to the pot, the registry number is swapped which is why you are now seeing T1 in pot #24. What you need to do is enter the tool number for the spindle (SP) in the registry as well as all the tools. Even if you start with a clean tool registry, each time you do a tool change the tool in the pot changes where-as on the umbrella type, the tool always returns to the same pot - you need to be very careful when loading the tools as the pot position may not be the indicative of the tool number.

    Try this; check the tool registry and record what tools are where, then only command an M6 - CYCLE START..... it should do a tool change with the tool in the pot, and if you check the registry again you'll see the tool in the spindle and pot will be different. The registry gets really scrambled when you start calling tools in random order, but as long as you know what tool is in the spindle each time you load new tools you'll be ok.

  7. #7
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    Thank you cncdan,

    That explanation helps a lot in understanding what is going on. I began to come to that conclusion as I seen the registry scrambling more and more as I cycled the m6 command. I appreciate the explanation on how to address it and will set out to do that next. I'll report my progress.

    -------------- Mean while... back at the ranch.....

    So I've been trying what you suggested cncdan however I can find no place to create an entry for SP (Spindle). I have the Tool Param screen and then select regist where it lists the pots (MG on the screen) positions and the tool id assigned to it. There is also a D 'data' entry and an Aux entry associated with each tool. I've tried assigning a unique tool name like '101' and then see what pots it gets assigned to and then move to a different pots, then try to execute a tool command 'T101' 'M6' but it doesn't end up going to where 101 is. It seems to just pick an arbitrary pots and loads that tool. Quite confusing. It doesn't appear that you can execute a tool command either by MG (Pots) or Tool name and get it to actually select that one. Oh it gets a tool... just one you never expected.

    I assume I am setting these in the right screen? The entries seem to stick and still show as defined when navigating about screens, mdi mode, etc.

  8. #8
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    Oct 2009
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    Well if the tool changer is working correctly I wouldn't worry about it... But, I'd double-check the operation for every tool by identifying each tool using a piece of tape on each toolholder to label each tool from 1-24 then and then do a few trials... load up all the tools then call each tool in any order to see if you get the tool you expect every time.

    We had a similar machine to yours and occasionally we'd reset the registry such that all the Magazine #'s and Tool #'s are matching, then load up all the tools (on our machine we could load the tools directly into the magazine at the back of the machine - not a Takumi though)...

    You should be aware that on this type of ATC you can "stage the tools" which will reduce the tool change time (if tool change time is important). For example, while the machine is cutting with T1 you can call the next tool, let's say T7 is the next tool required, you'd program a block with T7 but NOT M6... this will index the T7 in position ready for the next tool change. then when that tool is required you can just program M6 to perform the tool change, or to be safe you should probably still use T7 M6. This way you don't need to wait for the tool to index into position before it changes tools.

    I found a copy of a similar control manual on the web (Meldas 500)... according to the manual ...the spindle registry can be set by entering MG (SP) & Tool #...see below
    Attachment 340722
    Attachment 340724
    Attachment 340726

  9. #9
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    Hello cncdan,

    The attachment you provided above is to small to make out even if I enlarge the screen. It is very likely the pages you posted are from the very manual I have however I can't make out the section and sub paragraph numbers to be sure. Can you pass that information to me? I'm assuming it is in the Tool Offset menu somewhere but I still am not seeing the reference to SP as an entry for the MG. That will at least allow to know where I should be looking in the manual.

    Having said that, the explanation in your post made sense to me and I tried that and darn if it didn't work. Placement of the tool now became predictable. So I will pull out all the tools (I filled the carousel) and ID them 1 by 1 while in the spindle and then move them to the carousel.

    Thanks a bunch cncdan.

  10. #10
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    The images will open full size if you click on them, it will pop-up bigger then click on again on the pop-up it will open in a new window, then click once more to magnify (pgs 3-10, 3-11, 3-12). info is in middle of pg 3-11.

    It is conceivable to actually have 25 tools; one in the spindle, and 24 in the magazine, or one position as empty T0..( I think ?)

    Sounds like you're on the right track....

  11. #11
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    Tuche` cncdan.

    I now see that reference in the book. I just hadn't gone far enough. Funny that they would place that information later as opposed to sooner since one would think you would want to id the tools before setting all the information about them. Go figure.

    Thank you a bunch for your time and recollection. It helped me considerably to understand how one should approach these machines particularly when their origins are from the orient.

    I will continue to load up the tooling and reinforce what I have been learning than tie this thread up with a final post... then move on to the next one!

    Any comments regarding your tenure with this particular machine cncdan and how it may have compared to others you have had exposure to? :cheers:

  12. #12
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    Re: Takumi V8a w/Mitsubishi Meldas 520an Controls - How to load automatic tool change

    So, what are you making with the machine?
    The Takumi worked well when I ran it (10+ years ago). It may never compare to a German made DMG, but I can say we ran the Takumi day & night including lots of "lights out machining", and it took a lot of abuse without too many issues. The machine has box-ways and is very rigid compared to similar sized Japanese Linear Guide machines; the linear guide machines resonated (vibrated) way more during heavy machining. We used it for machining injection molds; machining tool-steel all day (4140, p20, soft H13, hardened H13...etc)

    Cheers....

    now go make some chips!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cncdan View Post
    Hi hdokes,

    My memory is a bit foggy, its been over ten years since running that machine, but I'm thinking the M6 may not be required in manual mode to activate the toolchange.
    Try putting machine in Handle Mode, Type T1 & hit INPUT ... this may be all that is needed ?
    (by the way, IIRC stands for "If I Recall Correctly").

    If this does not work, in MDI mode type T1 M6 then CYCLE START.... see if one of these work

    Also, be aware that if the carousel is already indexed to T1 the machine will not do a tool change to T1 as it is assumed that T1 is already in the spindle, try any other tool #.
    Hi cncdan, I was reading the hdokes problem and I've a similar one. In my company is a DYNA MYTE 4800 cnc with MELDAS 500 series control type. The ATC don't work, so I did a lot of research and this is what I did:
    First, I think it was only a syntax problem, so I wrote M06 Txx instead of Txx M6 , but nothing happend.
    Second, I disable the "Locks" A, B and C in order to modify the macro for tool change:
    M66;
    G4 P1;
    IF[#1005 EQ 1] GO TO 9;
    #131=#4003;
    #130=#4006;
    N1 G91 G28 Z0;
    #1103=1;
    G4 P100;
    IF[#1008 EQ 0] GO TO 1;
    N5 G30 Z0 P2;
    G4 P100;
    IF[#1009 EQ 0] GO TO 5;
    G4 P10;
    N8 G91 G28 Z0;
    G4 P10;
    #1103=0;
    IF[#1007 EQ 0] GO TO 8;
    N9 M67;
    G#130;
    G#131;
    M99;

    I don't try this macro yet, because I'm not so sure with the procedure. The path to modify the macro 'inside the memory' of the cnc is this (I think): PROG/ IN OUT-->EDIT-->PROGR-->type "9000"--->edit macro--->INPUT
    once I have done this in MDI mode I should be able to set the commands for tool change and the carousel will move, right...?

    Is this procedure right?
    Last edited by Joaquin_87; 09-07-2018 at 05:18 PM.

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