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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    20

    Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Hi All,
    My brother and I are looking for a cnc machine on a limited budget for some prototype work - mostly cutting wood & plastic, but possibly some light aluminum. I've been researching the Chinese built 6040 and 6090 machines and would really appreciate some guidance! We were hoping to get a 1.5KW spindle (or better) based mill for around 1 to 1.5K USD.

    We would prefer a unit ready to run, but many warn that the motion controllers are pretty terrible (black box, blue box, etc). Do any companies offer good controllers with these yet, or is the best route still to buy one and retrofit it with a G540 or Leadshine controller? Would it be too ambitious to try to buy a frame and source all the components ourselves? We would like to get up and running as soon as possible, but not at the cost of having to replace inadequate or dead components later.

    Also - I found this machine from "Jinan Blue Elephant CNC Machinery Co.,Ltd" on Allibaba.com. Is anyone familiar with this company? It looks like a decent deal but It's a little over our intended budget, and like anything on Ali - it's only good if the seller is reputable.

    Here is a list of my notes from various posts here. Any comments welcome:

    • 6040 "z" denotes ball screws, which are superior, correct?
    • Quote from JohnDeere630: "I don't use USB to control steppers because USB is not a real-time protocol. I use the parallel port because it is a real-time system"
      • Is this true? Has anyone experience this issue with USB?

    • What is a list of components needed to complete a 6040 frame?
      • Spindle: Prefer 1.5 or 2.2KW water cooled
      • Variable Frequency Drive (NES1?)
      • Power supply - should be 48w or higher
      • Stepper Drive (like G540, but preferably USB like a Leadshine MX3660 or MX4660)
      • Motion Controller (UC100)
      • Shielded cables
      • Mach 3 or LinuxCNC? (Are these compatible with USB?)
      • Add limit switches
      • Cables should be grounded at the controller end and on both ends for the spindle<->VFD to earth the mill frame.


    This site has been an unbelievably great resource of information for me, and any help/advice/input from all the knowledgeable folks here would be greatly appreciated!

    Danny

  2. #2
    AllenOmnicnc Guest

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    690*Gantry*moving*cutting*aluminum*
    https://youtu.be/EDCTP5OqNvE

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2134

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Hi Danny,

    I posted some responses to you in the other thread you posted, but in further answer to these, if your looking at a 6040 then 1.5kw is really going to be the very upper limit, and it would likely need to be one of the rarer slimmer and less weighty versions of the spindle as the z axis on the 6040 is not that powerful. Generally they come with a reasonably good 800w VFD/spindle which really isn't at all bad considering, or they come with the crap DC brushed spindle/motors up to 400w or thereabouts, but these are pretty crap and don't last long generally, I would avoid them at all costs.

    I think first and foremost you'll need to sit down and really work out what your buying limits are, and how committed you are to what your trying to achieve by buying a cnc machine!

    The reason is that no matter what you buy, it will be a very large and expensive purchase that you will likely need to live with for some years. The forums are full of posts all the time from people who in my opinion make the same basic mistake repeatedly, they have an idea for a business that involves buying a cnc machine, they buy the cheaper (and less capable!) model with the view that they will sell it and upgrade to a more useful machine the second things improve, but what generally happens is that they realise cnc is a real benefit and quite empowering, but they are stuck with a machine of very finite capabilities (thus reducing production capability and income generation), but they aren't generating enough income to make it worthwhile selling the small machine at a loss, to then start the process of upgrading to a bigger and more expensive machine all over again.

    It's horses for courses, and budgets are there for a reason, but if you have a good business plan and idea, and feel committed enough to make it work, no matter how long it might take, the trick I really believe is to buy once and buy well.

    Having said that, if the 6090 with the better spindle and rails is an option, it will be one you won't regret, and will hold it's value far better than any 6040 variant.

    All the 6040's available via Ebay and Ali are the bluebox controller variety, usually with round unsupported rails, lower quality spindle, and utterly useless TB6560 based controllers and power supply, that ultimately mean you will NEED to spend additional on a G540, and a decent 48V power supply to suit. For serious hobbyist use this will be more than adequate, to base a business plan on however, in my opinion not a good idea if there are any better options.

    To answer specifically some of the questions you raised,

    USB is perfectly fine along with ethernet for some of the better controllers/interfaces out there
    I far prefer water cooled to air cooled, having been in IT most of my life "I don't trust no stinking fans", especially in an incredibly dusty environment such as a home workshop!
    1.5kw is very adequate for all wood and plastic machining, and even aluminium, I do heaps of alu on my machine, but on a bigger machine 2.2kw is definitely better!
    VFD's are base on budget, a Hitachi or similar would be good, but the cheap Chinese ones do work well, the SunFar 300E on my machine has been perfect all these years.
    A G540 would be required for a 6040 or similar in my opinion to get any level of decent performance and reliably out of it, on a bigger machine it will come with Leadshine quite likely, and these should perform just fine. Mine are M542's.
    The UC100 is quite popular and by all reports very reliable, but if you buy a bigger machine that has NCStudio as the control software, you wouldn't need any additional software or I'F cards of any sort. On a 6040 though, they would be sorta overkill I would think. A lot of money that could have been put to better use buying a better machine I reckon.
    Shielded cables are good for the spindle/VFD, but not always necessary unless your really having interference issues, which if your using a 6040 you'll definitely be having plenty of those!
    Mach3 is pretty much the industry standard for hobbyists, but if your somewhat comfortable with Linux then that's a nice free option. I must admit though that I'm really used to the NCstudio that came with my machine and find it just perfect for my needs, simplicity is always the best!
    Any half decent machine will come with limit switches, if not you will need to fit them, as the machine ca do itself quite serious damage without them.
    Earthing is a whole different kettle of fish, there's a really good long thread with input from from more knowledgeable people in these forums. Just do a search and you find it easy enough.

    cheers, Ian
    It's rumoured that everytime someone buys a TB6560 based board, an engineer cries!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    20

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Thanks Ian! I am in awe of the amount of information that you so generously shared - and mere hours after I posted! You make so many good points that I feel confident a 6090 will be best for our needs. Hopefully our budget and timing will allow us to step up to one of these units from the smaller ones we began looking at. I'll keep you posted with my progress and hopefully you won't mind if a few more questions arise along the way - cheers!

    Danny

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2134

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Your welcome Danny!

    I should point out that I'm not bagging the 6040's at all even though it might seem that way, they are a product with a level of build quality that no other manufacturer can even come close to for anywhere near the cost, so they are amazing value for what they are. Even factoring in a G540 and a new PSU they still represent great value, but, for any reasonable commercial endeavour it would be throwing moeny away in my opinion as you'd realise pretty quick it may not be suitable for your needs in many cases.

    Of course if your planning on little trinkets or small carvings, wooden jewelry, etc, then the 6040 would likely be more than adequate. But it would still be somewhat limiting in many cases.

    CNC definitely isn't cheap, and this is a case where spending a little more can save a lot in the long run.

    cheers, Ian
    It's rumoured that everytime someone buys a TB6560 based board, an engineer cries!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    20

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Hey Ian,
    I'm going to contact Jcut to get some quotes on a 6090B. The first job we're hoping to do with a mill is cutting wooden sunglass frames in batches of 5 (see mocked up pic). Some things I'm wondering are:
    - If we end up needing to do low-volume production with this thing, are we crazy not to have a tool changer?
    - Could one be added later (I realize probably not)
    - Is a 6090B already outside of a (roughly) 2k budget?
    - Do you have any recommendations that we look at for that range?

    As always - thanks a bunch!

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    16

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    I just got one of these, incredible build quality, almost no flex in the gantry and the company will do a deal like chuck in mach 3 etc
    I'm very happy with mine, they even chucked in a free 2nd user pc... all cheaper than a chinese machine
    2500 euros all in thats about £2200 !!

    Kompas H - 1000 HF | Cau Cau

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    20

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    ... Oh I just thought of one more question too - I know that each company is probably a different scenario - but when you ordered from Jcut - did the 6090B come in only one configuration, or did you spec it out yourself? Spindle size, tool changer, etc? Is this stuff configurable to some extent?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35538

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    You're asking about a tool changer on a $2000 budget.
    An ATC spindle and toolholders alone will cost at least $3000-$3500, with no machine to put it on.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35538

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Stepper Drive (like G540, but preferably USB like a Leadshine MX3660 or MX4660)
    The Leadshine drives you mentioned are not USB, and are no different than a G540. Both will plug into a UC100.

    Mach 3 or LinuxCNC? (Are these compatible with USB?)
    The UC100 will only work with Mach3 or UCCNC. (Mach4 at some point as well)
    I'd recommend UCCNC.

    LinuxCNC only works with Mesa boards.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    128

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post

    LinuxCNC only works with Mesa boards.
    Since when?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35538

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    I was assuming that he didn't want to use a parallel port. What other options are there besides Mesa boards and the parallel port?
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    20

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    @ger21, thanks for the ballpark info on an ATC spindle. You'll have to pardon my ignorance on the relative pricing of components as I'm new to the cnc milling domain. Input from you folks is helping me to cover a lot of ground in short time as I try to understand what machining capability our current budget will afford us, and whether it will cover our needs going forward. If our current needs exceed our budget we will consider outsourcing until we can afford a more appropriate mill. But at least we'll know going in.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2134

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by dalcini View Post
    ... Oh I just thought of one more question too - I know that each company is probably a different scenario - but when you ordered from Jcut - did the 6090B come in only one configuration, or did you spec it out yourself? Spindle size, tool changer, etc? Is this stuff configurable to some extent?
    Hi Danny,

    With budget, $2000 will be close to getting a working 6040, not really anything better than that, and as Gerry pointed out an ATC alone will be thousands. But I really couldn't see the advantage of an ATC on a machine that size in a semi-hobbyist/commercial environment. The few seconds it takes to change and set the z height of cutters is really insignificant. You'd be far better putting any ATC money onto a better machine to start with IMHO.

    I started looking at the table model 6090 but didn't like the mass or rigidity of it, so went to the big frame model. From there I went from the round supported rails of the A version to the better linear rails on the B model. A really, really important thing to note is that not all 6090's are the same, Keling CNC had or have, a 6090 with much thinner gantry sides than my machine, which caused many people to complain about the amount of flex when machining as a result.

    The frame, build quality, and things like the dimensions of the gantry, Z axis, etc, were all compared with the other models around at the time.

    cheers, Ian
    It's rumoured that everytime someone buys a TB6560 based board, an engineer cries!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    6

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Hi People,

    Great thread Danny, I'm in the same boat as you.. Is thisn any good for you?

    I'm looking for a machine to work on carbon fibre with and came across this with the 500watt computer controlled spindle- https://www.stepcraft-systems.com/en...tepcraft-2-840
    I saw it being used by easycomposite and looked as though it done the job well. It's also very versatile as it has a 3d printer and hot wire cutter adaptors available for it. As well as a load of other bits and pieces.

    What I'd like to know is, does anybody have any experience with these machines and are they any good/accurate? And straightforward to use?

    I'm completely new to all this and hoping to find a machine that will not have to be upgraded for a while,, for a budget of about 3,500 oz dollars.

    Also, what user interface does anyone recommend? What is usb beginner, usb full version, uccnc, parralell port all about????

    Thanks in advance

    Rob

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by fragged View Post
    I just got one of these, incredible build quality, almost no flex in the gantry and the company will do a deal like chuck in mach 3 etc
    I'm very happy with mine, they even chucked in a free 2nd user pc... all cheaper than a chinese machine
    2500 euros all in thats about £2200 !!

    Kompas H - 1000 HF | Cau Cau
    There is a reason why the machines are so cheap... they look good but are very slow. That is a problem if you are using a high speed spindle because most of the time the feed rate must be kept high, twice or even more than twice, compared to the maximum speeds they have. The only other option is to reduce spindle RPM, but in that case you lose torque.

    Also, if they include a Mach3 license AND a second PC for that price than I wonder where they come from... even an old PC costs about 200-400 EUR and a Mach3 license costs about 2-300 EUR as well, the UC100 is about 100 EUR, and what's left is really not enough for good quality parts, so something is fishy here.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    20

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Ian,
    Thanks again for the great info and guidance. I completely agree that without good rigidity, a machine will be useless to us at some point. I'm glad that you feel an ATC is not absolutely necessary (at least while we're starting up). Right now, if we found a good mill similar to the 6089B in the 3K range we would consider stretching our budget to own rather than outsource.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1189

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    I saw your picture look at the gcode you need to produce that frames I am sure you need more than one miller in one setup to be efficient I have a Heiz 400 t which was around 2k € without pc if you use existing pc and linuxcnc you will be in you budget and I used a kress where I later put an atc on it pcb milling sucks without atc -


    Gesendet von iPad mit Tapatalk

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    20

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Hi again all, so here's an update, and another humble question:
    Update: We requested initial quotes for three comparable mills so far: ELE6090 (Blue Elephant), RDG-6090A (Rodeo Machinery), and 6090B (Jinan JCut). As expected, prices are comparable and I think we will be able to get one this quarter, but there are minor differences between the mills and I'd like to be sure we know what's important. I'd like to compile a short list of important specs that I need to ask each vendor for. Here's what I have so far:

    -- Structure: Cast iron > Steel > Aluminum > Cardboard (little joke there!) Most of these use a combo of the first three I think.
    -- Rails: Linear are better than Round Supported Rails - thanks to Ian for this info. So far I'm seeing Taiwan Hiwin Square rail. Jinan JCut denotes square rails with "B" suffix vs "A" for round in the model number (Thanks Ian) do they all follow this convention?
    -- Spindle: 1.5KW or better water cooled & brushless preferred. How do I research these? One company offers a 2.2KW Changsheng. Anyone have one of these?
    -- Stepper motors: So far I see one quote with 86BYG steppers, and one quote with 450A Steppers. Anyone have experience with these?
    -- Ball Screws: They all have them. (I believe they're better than ACME) Are some better than others?
    -- Cables: Are they Shielded?
    -- ??? Am I missing anything else important?

    I will continue to try to research this myself on here and elsewhere on the web as well, but all of your input here has been extremely valuable!
    Many thanks ahead of time!

    Danny

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    21

    Re: Seeking advice for cnc machine purchase

    Hello this looks like a good place to ask ....I just ordered a Chinese 6012 (2x4') router and I've requested that they video a performance test to show accuracy and integrity before I send the balance. Can anyone out there suggest a good run test for these machines? I figure right off the bat it would be good to see if the cutter is in the same plane as the table - anything else? Ian?

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