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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistance
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  1. #1
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    Unhappy Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistance

    Hi,

    I did what I should not have and did 3 upgrades (spindle motor quick disconnect to prep for rapid turn, the smart cool and the power meter) at the the same time on my series 3, very shortly (say about 45 seconds over two cycles) after powering up the spindle at 250RPMs with no load it died. - lesson learned one upgrade at a time.

    Smart cool works, every thing works, except spindle.
    It spun for about 15 second the night I installed it and it was in the right direction sounded right so I called it and went to bed happy, next morning I wanted to verify the speed of the spindle and while getting the optical revolution counter ready the spindle just stopped, tried e-stop, reset, power cycle nothing brought it back

    1. Spindle door switch is making good contact past the trip point as that can prevent the VFD from coming on.
    2. Spindle lockout key works, have used it to clear the codes and it was not moved when this started.
    3. Double checked all my wiring at motor electrical box and owed out every cable form VFD to motor and all looks good, no shorts between lines nor opens on lines. No poor connections with stringers.
    4. C2 contractor (controls power to the VFD motor drive):
      1. Only engages if I disconnect the 3 motor lines from the VFD (400, 401, 402) but as expected gives an error code, it looks like tr r5 - suspect this is indicating open load, did not trace this as i expect an error.
      2. C2 contractor does not engage if I leave the 3 motor lines connected to the VFD , have finally gotten it to show me an error code and its 01.AC - which the manual describes as "VFD output instantaneous over current" infers a short to the motor or at the motor, not sure why its now showing a code all of a sudden, but while in the early debug I got nothing (hum, maybe early debug was misleading due to issues with 105/105A (spindle door open as the contact on the shorting bricks at the bottom of the cabinet are weak at best, wires come out easily and are a pain to put back in) anyway I got a code and its telling me ohm things out.

    5. few more observations:
      1. Getting same result with path pilot as with manual controls which bypass the parallel printer cable/ribbon cable - so its not these cables. (also both reverse and forward do the same and I would suspect they are on different wires of these cables)
      2. FU01 and FU02 fuses are good
      3. By the way the motor is wired as a delta not a Y, did not change this.
      4. Also tried sticking in the PCNC 1100 programming key (when mill was fully off) in the VFD, powering it back on and testing spindle, but that did not help.


    Here is the key help I would really appreciate - I measured around 3.2 - 3.3 ohms between any of the 3 lines at the VFD (wires 400, 401,402) after disconnecting them from the VFD but leaving them connected at the motor, does this sound right? Can anyone measure to confirm this is expected, I find it hard to believe that I killed the motor, but would really like to know if this matches readings for other PCNC 1100 spindles.

    Will look for a VFD self test in the morning.

    Any debug suggestions welcomed

    Thanks

    PS: Tormach support (the reason I went with PCNC 1100) called back and was great to talk with, gave many ideas and insight based on no error codes, but with a full time week day job, I only get to debug at times when Tormach support is closed, so hoping community can help me get this system back up - thanks
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  2. #2
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    igrau

    I's this mod a disconnect between the motor from the VFD or just disconnects the starter/contactor for the VFD input power, so it turns off the power to VFD

    Turning ON/OFF a VFD within a short time frame is not a good idea
    Mactec54

  3. #3
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    @maxtec54

    Its the motor from VFD, for easy swap of motors to say the rapid turn motor.
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  4. #4
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    Quote Originally Posted by igrau View Post
    @maxtec54

    Its the motor from VFD, for easy swap of motors to say the rapid turn motor.
    That a very bad idea, to have a switch between a VFD and motor, it is very easy to damage both motor or VFD by having a switch in this position
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    @maxtec54

    Hum, its a Tormach kit to do this not my own design. It allows one to physically unplug one motor and plug in another - power must be off to do the change also requires changing the VFD programming stick. Curious, what makes this a bad idea?
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  6. #6
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    Quote Originally Posted by igrau View Post
    @maxtec54

    Hum, its a Tormach kit to do this not my own design. It allows one to physically unplug one motor and plug in another - power must be off to do the change also requires changing the VFD programming stick. Curious, what makes this a bad idea?
    If it where to be switched at the wrong time you will damage the VFD, there are special switches that can do this, but not at the small machine Hobby level

    They should never have done this most VFD Drive Manufacturers do not recommend to do this as per snip attached
    Mactec54

  7. #7
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    SOLVED - sort of

    There is no issue with the VFD as a few of you suspected. I wired it directly as @wvines suggested and every thing works.

    have brought in another multi meter and at the motor from each of the 3 lines to GND, I see open not the 170ish Kohms I read when measuring at the VFD. I can't find any wire responsible for the high current, all connections are super cleaning there are no shorts that I can measure on the wires directly. Will keep digging but at least its working so its a wiring issue that is not showing up when I ohm things out. I doubt its sensitive to impedance issues, but who knows how the VFD pretests?

    Many thanks to all for the super help!!!!

    Also still need to figure out why my VFD is locked and its not the tormach code I can't get it to read the smartstick till I figure out this code.

    I am not the first owner of this machine so am wondering if it was changed but why - or maybe I am just felt out not entering it right (who knows been a crazy day)

    Have a great weekend, will put another post when i find the root cause
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    81

    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    I measured the resistance on my series 2 machine. There was 4.3 to 4.6 ohms between each of the lines.

  9. #9
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    Quote Originally Posted by wvines View Post
    I measured the resistance on my series 2 machine. There was 4.3 to 4.6 ohms between each of the lines.
    Was that with the wires disconnected from the VFD?
    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3, Grizzly G0709 lathe, Clausing 8520 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.

  10. #10
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    Quote Originally Posted by tmarks11 View Post
    Was that with the wires disconnected from the VFD?
    Yes. But it measures the same whether it's connected or not.

  11. #11
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    @wvines - Thank you soooo much for taking the time to do this on your machines with VFD disconnected - THANKS
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  12. #12
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    3.2 ohms is about what I would expect.

    Check from each phase to ground and see if there is a short, with the motor plugged into the disconnect, measured from the three wires at the VFD (with them removed from the VFD terminals).

    Grounding is far more likely to be the issue.

    Does the C2 contactor not even try to cycle shut when you manually power the spindle from the front pane; keyswitch (can you here it "clunk")? Your machine control board shouldn't know that the VFD is seeing a shorted condition until the VFD powers on. This is a very strange scenario.

    I would take four wires (phases + ground) and run them straight from the vfd to the junction box on the motor, and see if that works. That would isolate the problem as the section of wiring you messed with.
    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3, Grizzly G0709 lathe, Clausing 8520 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.

  13. #13
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    @tmarks11 - many many thanks for the comments

    You are right the c2 contractor does engage both with key + closed door + manual start button or with key + closed door + path pilot. Yes like you said its the power to the VFD and I see the contractor sink in to make contact in both cases and in both the VFD quickly goes form 00 to 01.AC. My poor wording was related to when I got no codes as the unit was not powering up likely form poor 105 contact.

    Measured ohms to ground on the 3 lines to the motor at the VFD end (disconnected from VFD) and get ~167-173k ohms to GND, is this also in line with your expectation. I noted it takes my ohm meter a while to settle down as if there is some capacitance but I don't see any other than parasitics of wires running next to each other.

    Yup will try the jumper wire idea next but suspecting its not that as the measurements seem about right to me on the VFD end to the motor - please tell me if you thing I am wrong.

    Thanks again, very much appreciate your time and ideas

    Regard
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  14. #14
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    Weird problem. The motor resistances look OK. I would be suspicious of an intermittent problem with one of the control connections to the VFD, especially since you recently installed the load meter.

    You may have done this already, but I would wiggle the wires and check the connections between the VFD and control board.

  15. #15
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    @wvines, agreed its very odd, will recheck the control wires and remove the two for the power meter

    Do you (or anyone) know if the VFD stick programs 100% of the VFD parameters or just a few high level parameters. Seems like programming is as simple as power down put stick into vid slot, power up, turn on c2 and that's it - or am i leaving out a critical step? I am asking as I am also wondering if the programming got corrupted and putting in the stick is fooling me into thinking i did a full reprogram.

    Still need to go through the vfd manual to see if it has a self test that I can run. Or it give more clues to the error code. Plus try the direct wire to the motor.

    thanks
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  16. #16
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    I'm pretty sure the memory stick completely re-programs all of the VFD parameters.

    BUT, there are a series of steps you have to do to get it to load from the stick. They are detailed starting on page 4 of the load meter installation instructions.

    ETA: Actually, since you have a newer machine this probably isn't true anymore. The VFD on my machine is locked and requires a code (129) to change parameters. So.... nevermind. And good luck!

  17. #17
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    Quote Originally Posted by igrau View Post
    @wvines, agreed its very odd, will recheck the control wires and remove the two for the power meter

    Do you (or anyone) know if the VFD stick programs 100% of the VFD parameters or just a few high level parameters. Seems like programming is as simple as power down put stick into vid slot, power up, turn on c2 and that's it - or am i leaving out a critical step? I am asking as I am also wondering if the programming got corrupted and putting in the stick is fooling me into thinking i did a full reprogram.

    Still need to go through the vfd manual to see if it has a self test that I can run. Or it give more clues to the error code. Plus try the direct wire to the motor.

    thanks
    Your last post jogged my memory and when I installed my kit it also tripped the drive when I first started it. I found that after the High Speed Motor was connected it would start, turn the spindle about 1/2 turn and trip. After checking all the wiring again I went back to the dongle pulled it and replugged it in. I then learned that on mine at least a fair amount of force was required to insert it to full depth in the slot. After it fully seated everything worked as expected.

  18. #18
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    just saw this in the VFD manual, thought some might want to to know, but I am not confident enough to hot swap.

    Also seems it has to be instructed to read the "smartstick"

    Attachment 345904

    page 148
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

  19. #19
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    igaru

    As I said in my post that it was most likely to do with the wiring, as that is all that you had changed

    What is the brand name of the VFD on your machine, it's just ( 1 ) parameter to unlock it

    The smartsticks are common, and a good way to backup the VFD's Parameters, or in your case to have ( 2 ) of them with the two different motor profiles on, so you can change over each motor quickly

    It's all still not very well engineered how they have done this, there are other ways to do this that don't compromise anything, which can happen with this setup
    Mactec54

  20. #20
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    Re: Installed spindle power quick change, now my spindle is dead, need motor resistan

    hi @maxtec54,

    yup you were right, i wasted too much time with misleading readings that i can't explain telling me it can't be the wires.

    Emerson is the brand for my VFD

    Agreed while scanning the manual I noticed it seems to have an options for a second motor profile is that what you are thinking for a more efficient method or just having the programming be transferred via the control board and modbus - I suspect the latter to support more than 2 motor options - maybe in series 4 .

    Another quick question - does the spindle load go to the middle of the green with zero load (not even a belt in my case) at 250 and 2000 RPMs? I find that very strange but it the first readings I get from eh spindle load meter


    This is what I did to try reprogram the VFD - and in the end i get the code 170.4 not 170.3


    A) @ full off
    B) disconnect B4 from VFD
    C) insert smart stick (my system lets it in fairly easy, firmer push does not go deeper - contacts go in a few mm but seem to align with where I observe the outer contacts.
    D) power up and out of reset, manual start/stop to get VFD powered up
    E) Momentarily (1 second or less) press the M button on the drive until the left digits flash a 2 digit code, usually 01. <-- yup got this
    NOTE: If during the procedure you find that the left side digits are flashing when the right side digits should be, or the right side digits are flashing when the left side digits should be, momentarily press the M button to switch to the proper side digits.
    F) Use the up arrow ▲ to increase the numerical value of the left digits to 10.
    G) Press the M button to cause the right side values of the display to flash.
    H) Press the or down arrow ▼ until the right digits on the display read L2.
    I) Press the M button to store the selection and cause the left side digits to flash.
    J) Use the up arrow ▲ to increase the numerical value of the left digits to 28.
    K) Press the M button to cause the right side values of the display to flash
    L) At this point you will see CodE flash on the right. <-- yup saw this
    M) Use the up arrow ▲ or down arrow ▼ to change the numerical value of the right digits to 129.
    N) Press the M button to accept the code. <-- no error that I could detect
    O) Presstheup▲ordownarrow▼untiltherightdigitsonthedis playrEAd.
    P) Momentarily press the M button to store the selection and cause the left side digits to flash and cause the right sidedigitstodisplayno. Theremaybeashortpauseasthedrivedownloadsthe
    program from the stick. <-- Did not observe any pause
    Q) Use the down arrow ▼ to decrease the numerical value of the left digits to 10
    R) Press the M button to cause the right side values of the display to flash.
    S) Press the up ▲ or down▼ arrow until the right digits on the display read LoC.
    T) Press the M button to store the selection and cause the left side digits to flash.
    U) Press the up ▲ or down▼ arrow until the left digits on the display read 02.
    V) The right side display should now read 170.3 (this value only applies to PCNC 1100 owners). This is an indicator that the program downloaded correctly. Note; if 170.0 is indicated, than the program did not load properly. Power down the drive and re-start with step A). If 60.0 or any other code is
    shown, than please contact Tormach support for further assistance. <-- I get 170.4 not 170.4 have tried 3 times with same result


    Any ideas what I am doing wrong, failing to get a clue from the manual as a search does not show a 170.? code

    thanks
    Learning to use a Tormach Series 3

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