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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Benchtop Machines > RF-45 Clone Mill > ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC
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  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
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    1753

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Kurt - very awesome! Take a look at native cam.. It looks like it is a very powerful conversational...

    NativeCAM is Features renamed - LinuxCNC

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjO...86HyVrshTmiUBQ

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    80

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    I love NativeCAM! But most of the parts I make are much quicker to program in HSMWorks so I don't end up using it very often. Fern and Nick have donet a marvelous job with it though and I think it is one of nicest Linux applications I have used. I did experiment with embedding NativeCAM in one of the notebook tabs in my Hazzy UI, but there was not quite enough room for it there so I am going to try and find a better way to integrate it.

    Thanks for mentioning it here though, it is another good reason to use LinuxCNC.

    Kurt

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    9

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJ View Post
    Tim,
    I think you are missing the real time kernel. I forgot I had not finished the procedure I wrote. Sorry about that, it was missing the most important bits! I just finished it though so hopefully it might give you some hints as to what you need to do to get LCNC running.

    Here is the link:
    https://sites.google.com/site/rf45cn...lling-linuxcnc

    Good luck and let me know how it goes when you get to it!
    Kurt
    Thanks Kurt
    Will give it a try when home, Will PM you from now on so as not to clutter your excellent Build thread


    Cheers
    Tim

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1306

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Excellent, clleanly designed and well thought out conversion you have done. Thanks for posting the model files. I have imported them to Onshape, and they converted perfectly.

    Interesting in your strip down photos that the base casting appears to be a lost foam casting.
    Did you scrape in the base/column interface to improve it's bearing?

    I see you did the ball nuts back to back, but don't see any form of preload adjustment? Did you precisely machine the nut carriers so that the nuts are spaced a fulll thread apart so that the nuts align, and then shim for preload?

    Now that you have had it finished and running for a while, what is your summary of the RF45 Clone CNC'd?

    Mark
    Regards,
    Mark

  5. #125
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    12

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hi Kurt

    I really like the conversion that you are doing on this mill. It is very clean and it looks like it was meant to look that way.
    I also have a RF45 clone and have been collection parts for a while now to convert it to CNC.
    Link to it - http://thmachinetools.co.za/Home/Mac...ing%20Machines
    It is available with a 1000mm by 240mm table or a 800mm by 240mm table
    Mine is the 800mm table which is basically the same as the Enco mill.
    I have taken some mesurements on my mill and compared them to your CAD drawings and it is virtually the same mill, just halfway around the world from you.

    Got a question on your X-Axis conversion. In your CAD files you list the BK15 end support as Modified.
    Comparing it to the one that I have it looks like you milled some off its mounting surface. Is that correct and how much did you take off?
    I re-read your whole thread but did not find any reference to this.

    Regards

    Deon

  6. #126
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    Jun 2016
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    80

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by RotarySMP View Post
    Excellent, clleanly designed and well thought out conversion you have done. Thanks for posting the model files. I have imported them to Onshape, and they converted perfectly.
    Thank you Mark! I had almost forgotten about Onshape. I have not played with it for a few years but I remember it was quite good and unique in that it always imported Solidworks models properly (which is not surprising I guess since it was started by some solidworks folks!).

    Quote Originally Posted by RotarySMP View Post
    Interesting in your strip down photos that the base casting appears to be a lost foam casting.
    Did you scrape in the base/column interface to improve it's bearing?
    The base is a lost foam casting, and a pretty nice one too! It is interesting that they chose to use lost foam for the base but not any of the other parts. I wish they had done the same for the head and column.

    I can't remember for certain, but I think the base/column interface blued in OK once the SHCS were snugged up, so I left it alone. When I did the CNC conversion I ended up shimming the front of the column just in front of the screws with a double layer of aluminum foil about .5" wide to get it perfectly trammed. Al foil is about .5 thou thick so once compressed the total shim thickness was probably about .75 thou. I guess I should take it apart and scrape it to take that out, but I seriously doubt improving that interface would make a noticeable differance in performance. That machine has several other more significant weak points!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RotarySMP View Post
    I see you did the ball nuts back to back, but don't see any form of preload adjustment? Did you precisely machine the nut carriers so that the nuts are spaced a fulll thread apart so that the nuts align, and then shim for preload?
    Very good question! I did experiment with machining the nut blocks so that the nuts would end up an integral number of pitches apart, but unfortunately the threads start at random positions on the cheap ballnuts I used so this approach, while probably best, was not practical. I did luck out of the Z-axis though and did not even need to use shims to set the preload! To maintain preload on the X and Y axes I used Belleville washers (McMaster PN 9712K61) under the six SHCS that secure one of the ballnuts in each pair. I just snugged up the screws until I felt very light drag on the ballscrew. Not very scientific, but it has worked fine so far and the screws have not even worked loose. A little lock tight would be a good idea though.

    Quote Originally Posted by RotarySMP View Post
    Now that you have had it finished and running for a while, what is your summary of the RF45 Clone CNC'd?
    Well, over all I have been very pleased with it. It is not finished yet (still needs limits and a spindle contactor or FVD), but even so I have used it a good bit. As of today it has 98.5 axis power hours, and I would estimate maybe 15-20 spindle hours. It is plenty accurate for a cheap CNC (it will hold .002 pretty reliably, and since a good bit of that appears to be lead error in the screws, screw compensation should be able to take some of that out). The travels are big enough for most of what I want to do, and it is very convenient to use, even for "manual" jobs (but that's thanks mainly to my custom LinuxCNC interface!). My main complaint is with the accuracy of the spindle, which runs in a cyclical orbit repeating every ~8 spindle revolutions due to an oval lower bearing pocket and an oversized roller. I can and will fix this, but it I don't have the time or money now to do it right. Another slight disappointment is the low rigidity of the machine, but having it CNC'd actually makes this much easier to deal with. For example, I machined a accurate 5/16" keyway in a hardened steel shaft the other day by using HSM adaptive clearing and a .25" carbide end mill. It took some time, but I could do other things while it ran. I am quite certain the machine would not have had the rigidity to do this in a conventional meaner.

    I hope I answered your questions, and sorry for being so long winded!

    Kurt

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1306

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Thanks for your response Kurt. Not long winded, as it is experience and insight from guys like you who have such a project that make this forum so useful. By the way, congratulations on getting honours on your degree. Quite an acheivement.

    I am not really suprised that the RF45 Clone spindle has issues. I have an old Sieg 7x lathe, and these chinese industrial companies really know how to build down to a price, with little regard for a minimum standard.

    <OT>
    I am trying to work out which way to go. At present I have an old Deckel G1L engraver frame, frankensteined a little Sherline spindle on, which I use as a light mill. At 250kg of iron, it could be a reasonable small mill with new spindle, but needs to be rescraped, and the travels are only X12/Y6/Z12 inch. The RF45 clones are attractive for the envelope, but very light, and probably need just as much attention from new, as the old worn Deckel plus making a new spindle. The other option would be to buy an old CNC mill, but I could only fit something like an EMCO F3CNC through the basement door, and again end up with the very limited travels. A Maho 400 or deckel FP2NC would be about perfect, but won't fit through the door.

    I fear that if I buy an RF45 clone, I'll end up keeping only the table, saddle, base and column castings, E/G reinforcing the base and coumn, making my own Z carriage and spindle, and having a never ending project.

    I have been following Automarc's "the grizz" project, which he is doing an amazing job on, and setting a blistering pace, touching it nearly every day. When you get to the bit where he is $6K in, it will still only be as rigid as a G0704 can be, and has taken 7 1/2 months, I start wondering how hard it would be to widen the doorway in my 14" thick, structural, concrete basement wall and how to move a Maho 400 in through a steep driveway and single car garage door?
    </OT>

    Mark
    Regards,
    Mark

  8. #128
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    12

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hi Kurt

    Got a question on your X-Axis conversion. In your CAD files you list the BK15 end support as Modified.
    Comparing it to the one that I have it looks like you milled some off its mounting surface. Is that correct and how much did you take off?
    I re-read your whole thread but did not find any reference to this.

    Regards

    Deon

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    80

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hello Deon,
    Thank you for jogging my memory! I was going to make you a drawing of the modified BK15 block, but I guess I got distracted and never got back to replying. Sorry!

    To maintain enough clearance between the bottom of the X ballscrew and the saddle I had to shorten the the BF15 and BK15 bearing blocks used to support the screw. I removed .1024" from the mounting surface of each block to end up with exactly 1.000" from the bottom of the block to the bearings center line.



    To make sure the blocks ended up exactly the same height I machined them together. Since the original machining on the blocks was not very accurate I did not have a good reference face, so I removed both of the angular contact bearings from the BK15 block and slid the radial bearing in the BF15 block over and used it to align bores. Here is a pic of the machining set up. I can't remember how I set up my reference points, but it looks like I used the vice jaw. Hmmm, I guess that worked...




    I hope that explains the modifications to the bearing blocks. I intended to mention the modification before but I guess I was having too much fun putting the thing together and forgot!


    I looked at the link you posted to your machine. It looks nearly identical to my ENCO mill, the only visible differance is the table has three slots instead of the four on the ENCO. I think it will make a fine CNC mill.

    Kurt

  10. #130
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    12

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hi Kurt

    Thanx for that info, will definitely use it when the time comes.

    Using standard ballscrew available from evilBay - RM2005-750mm-C7+BKBF15 - I will have to slightly move the BF15 support as the thread length is 677mm against your 670mm as shown below

    Attachment 363776

    Attachment 363778

    Link to the ballscrew on evilBay - 1 pcs ballscrew RM2005-750mm-C7+BKBF15+6.35*12mm Flexible Coupler

    Cheers

    Deon

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    3

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hi Deon

    Just be careful about the low cost bearing blocks. I learned the hard way that they contain normal deep groove bearings instead of angular contact ones in the fixed end (BK) block.
    A set of 2 angular contact bearings themselves cost more than a cheap block set.

    Henri

    Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

  12. #132
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    80

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Henri, thanks for posting the warning on the cheap bearing blocks. Its good to know what to look out for.
    While we're on the subject, the blocks I got from Chai were not great, but at least the bearings were decent quality AC type. However, I had to add a shim to take up a gap between the AC bearings. The gap caused a lot of backlash and made it impossible to proofread the bearings.

    Deon, I would suggest you get a quote for custom screws from Chai. I don't know how much shipping is to South Africa, but I would think custom screws from him with double nuts would still be cheaper than those screws you linked on evilBay. And the best part (for me at least) is that you can get around evilBay altogether!

    Kurt

  13. #133
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    May 2016
    Posts
    12

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Thanx for the headsup Henri

    Kurt, shipping is a killer. At ZAR13.00 to the dollar, the complete kit for the 750mm ballscrew is about $55.00, Shipping is $100.00 but it is still much better than a local ballscrew for $384 without any machined ends or support blocks, only include a ballnut.

    As far as the bearing are concerned I have a local contact that normally can get me bearing at a very good price

    I also got no idea on how to contact Chai

  14. #134
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    May 2016
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    12

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    PS. No worries, found the link to Chai's eBay company in your parts list

  15. #135
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    May 2016
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    12

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hi

    I contacted Chai and ordered the X-Axis ballscrew from him.
    RM2005-C7-750mm with standard machined ends +1 set of BK/BF15 supports +one Double ballnut for RM2005
    Very much the same price as others at $56.00 BUT Air Shipping was only $43.00, less than half of the others. Saved me nearly ZAR700.00

    I like the idea of an pre-loaded Double Ballnut as I won't have to worry about getting two mounting surfaces aligned with each other.

    Cheers

    Deon

  16. #136
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    Dec 2017
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    13

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hey Kurt,

    New to this thread, but have been reading with interest for a while now.
    Was wondering if you could start a thread detailing your furnace build,
    been wanting to build one of them for a while.
    I know you're probably busy but it would be a very useful thing for the community, be great if you could run us through it.

    If you have time at some point it'd be great.

    Cheers, and amazing job on your mill buddy, I'm in the second year of my engineering degree at the moment and you really inspire me.

    Ed

  17. #137
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    Jun 2016
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    80

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Hello Ed,

    I apologize for not responding sooner. I normally get a notification for a new reply, but I don't think I did for yours, maybe I missed it.

    I would be glad to write something up on the furnace build.
    I don't know if there is an appropriate place on this forum, but if not I can figure something out.
    Anybody have a suggestion for a good place to put that sort of thing?

    I wish you the very best in your studies!
    Engineering may be one of the more difficult courses of study, but there is no question (in my mind at least) that it is also one of the most enjoyable and rewarding.
    If there is any way I can help you in your endeavors be sure to give me a shout out!

    Kurt

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    1943

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Kurt,
    I just purchased a RF-45 clone and am starting to plan my conversion. It looks like your conversion came out very well and I am considering using closed loop steppers. Not wanting to re-invent the wheel, I was just wondering if you could comment on the closed loop steppers you have on your mill.

    Do they have enough torque/speed? I'm looking for about 200 IPM rapids and up to about 100 IPM machining speeds.

    Have you had any issues with the inevitable torque falloff with rpm?

    Do you have the specs of the motors/drives/power supplies you used? IE: holding torque, current rating, inductance, voltage, etc?

    Any other general observations about the motors?

  19. #139
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    Jun 2016
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    80

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    109jb, sorry it took me so long to see your post, hopefully your well along on your conversion at this point!

    I have been very happy with the closed loop steppers. X and Y have no problem running at over 300IPM and Z can do 200IPM just fine. I am running the motors off a 68V 1000W toroidal supply: https://www.antekinc.com/ps-10n68-10...-power-supply/

    The X and Y motors are rated at 8.5N-m (1200oz-in), and the Z is 12N-m (1600oz-in), all NEMA34. Both motor sizes are rated at 6amps (I'm running them with 8.2amp drivers), but the X and Y motors have a per phase inductance of 3.6mH and the Z is 2.5mH.

    As long as you don't expect servo performance you will be happy with the closed loop steppers. They certainly perform much better than steppers, but they still have some of the downsides, resonance at certain speeds etc. But they are as easy to set up as regular steppers, which in my book is a big advantage.

    Kurt

  20. #140
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    Jan 2005
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    1943

    Re: ENCO RF45 Clone CNC Conversion - LinuxCNC

    Thanks Kurt. I got the x and y sorted out and then other things came along that are preventing me from finishing it. Hopefully I can get back to it soon.

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