[evalon]

Hi CNCzone,

I reckon this has been asked many times, yet I hope some the more experienced users here may help with these questions - I'll appreciate your knowledge in this field

As it is I'm considering buying a smaller CNC milling machine, however, time being my main limitation I'd rather ask up front how long it takes to learn to use a CNC milling machine ... And also what is a realistic & sensible price estimate (incl. necessary software) to buy a reasonable CNC mill (can be used but in good condition)?

My main uses will be metal, wood & plastic work up to board sizes ~ 25 * 25 cm sizes and 10 cm heights. I'm likely looking for a mill that would be considered a fine mid-level (small size) mill - hope that makes sense in this context ...

A few words about my previous experience: I have some experience with 3D drawing and make the models to be milled myself. Up till now I have had these models 3D printed. However, I have no - and that really is "no" - experience with programming or CNC milling whatsoever. On the other hand I have a quite good understanding of technical topics.

My approach in this would be to thread a learning path that preferably is straightforward & intuitive - using tutorials, easy-to-learn softwares, etc. It is my experience that this works best for me. Also, in this context I will be a "user" and will aim to learn what I need to know to make the models I would like to make. Thus, I am unlikely to become a super-user but more likely to become a "proficient user". My main focus is elsewhere ...

With this information would some of you here be able to roughly estimate how long it would take to learn to use a suitable CNC mill? And would there be a mill type that you reckon would fit best with my needs and approach to learning to use such a mill?

Thanks for any help - I'll appreciate your insights

Jesper

[awerby]

This question is like asking "How long will it take me to learn mathematics?". If all you need to do is count your flock of sheep, and you're a fast learner, it could go pretty quickly. If you're trying to solve Fermat's last theorem, and you're a bit slow on the uptake, it could take a bit longer...

In general, though, learning a CAM program isn't as hard as learning 3D modeling, although different programs have different learning curves. If you're starting with STL files, you could try DeskProto, which is fairly simple to use, and will work for free for a month. Don't start the trial before you've got your mill up and running, though.

Most mills are considerably longer in the X axis than in Y; a small mill will usually have an X axis that's 25cm or more, but only a fairly large one will have that much travel in Y. Routers tend to have more equal travels. Think hard about the parts you want to make before buying one. If the metal parts you're making are small, but the wood and plastic ones are large, you might need both a mill and a router. The stiffest routers do an acceptable job in aluminum, but won't cut steel; if that's something you need to do a mill would be necessary as well.

[evalon]

Hi Andrew

- & thanks for your feedback. Taking a bit of time to look at your website I'm somewhat grateful that you chose to reply - your website is quite interesting & inspiring I find & the wealth of links you provide made me surf for some time to consider options and following inspiration.

Also, what you write here:

This question is like asking "How long will it take me to learn mathematics?".

makes sense ... I knew that asking such a question sort of is like asking another person to fill in the blanks as to my abilities and knowledge, however, I don't otherwise know how to approach this ... Often highly specialized fields of technology may take quite some time to delve into and often it's just a few comments from people familiar with the field that clarifies a question. So, again, thanks for replying ;-)

Your comments and website also made me consider my needs in more detail and I've come up with this list:

- the router should be able to cut/mill into wood, plastics, similar materials, aluminum & aluminum alloys, copper, brass, bronze, gold leaf, PCBs (with up to 800 um copper layer) & similar. This also means that steel or similar materials are not required. The gold leaf is hardly difficult to mill, yet to do so without tearing the gold leaf I reckon a high speed spindle is desired (although I don't know how high a speed is needed) .. ? Reasonably high precision is needed.

- In the point above I say "router" and not mill. The reason for this is that in most cases - probably about 90 % of the work done - I will only need a very small routing area (appr. 20 * 15 cms) BUT I'd like to somehow be able to extend this to about 2 meters * 20 - 25 cms. I reckon one way of doing this may be to be able to precisely move the material already milled and then re-program the router for the new piece of the material to be milled. I imagine this could require a reasonably stable extension setup that can be dismantled when not in use - which would be possible in my current workplace. Might you have any experience with something similar in practice?

- Seeing your website also made me consider building the router myself - so as to better fit my needs and possibly also save a bit on the purchase (I'm also fine with second hand parts that work well). I do have (or may have) access to a metal workshop and am reasonably skilled in the use of metal working tools (including a manually controlled CNC). So I reckon I could build the router myself, however, have only a very vague idea about how long it may take as well as little knowledge of the complexity of making such a router. Any chance you may say a bit about this with my above comments in mind (I know - again asking a "verging on the impossible question ;-) " )? As I wrote in my #1 this is not my main focus so I'm not looking into hundreds of hours invested - but about two weeks (about 80 hours) all in all would be ok with me. Do you think this is realistic? And would you somehow be interested in / be able to guide me from time to time - as to what to buy and what to look (out) for? Maybe suggestions for an already existing build project? Being a bit upfront with my own projects I reckon this may stretch out over some months and I also have a longer vacation coming up ... Just FYI.

- To possibly address the parallel between 3D modeling programs and programs for routers I can say that the 3D modeling program I use is called MoI3D (an acronym for Moment of Inspiration 3D; MoI, 3D modeling for designers and artists ). IMHO it may be quite simple to use - when I started up using MoI3D I probably was reasonably proficient in its use in about 30 hours - something I have not found to be so with other 3D modeling programs. And when 3D printing (often from STL files but other file types are directly available - I've attached an image of the options) I use the program Cura ( https://ultimaker.com/en/products/cura-software ) which I got a good idea about how to use well in practice in maybe 3 - 5 hours (not knowing about 3D printing when starting). If possible I would appreciate being able to do something similar with router software.

Well, I realize these are many questions - I hope you - or maybe one of the other "forumers" - may be able to give some guidelines as to what is possible / feasible.

Cheers & thanks for any help in this

Jesper

[awerby]

Hi Andrew

.

- the router should be able to cut/mill into wood, plastics, similar materials, aluminum & aluminum alloys, copper, brass, bronze, gold leaf, PCBs (with up to 800 um copper layer) & similar. This also means that steel or similar materials are not required. The gold leaf is hardly difficult to mill, yet to do so without tearing the gold leaf I reckon a high speed spindle is desired (although I don't know how high a speed is needed) .. ? Reasonably high precision is needed.

[That's a big list of materials. A router might be expected to do some of them, but not all. Usually PCBs are cut on a specialized machine with a high-speed spindle and provisions for dealing with abrasive dust. Aluminum is feasible on a router if you build it very stiffly; copper, brass and bronze not so much - for those a mill would be best. Cutting gold leaf is a specialized task; the hard part would be holding it down. Even with patent leaf, which comes adhered to a sheet of paper, I'd think a drag knife would be better than a rotating spindle.]

- In the point above I say "router" and not mill. The reason for this is that in most cases - probably about 90 % of the work done - I will only need a very small routing area (appr. 20 * 15 cms) BUT I'd like to somehow be able to extend this to about 2 meters * 20 - 25 cms. I reckon one way of doing this may be to be able to precisely move the material already milled and then re-program the router for the new piece of the material to be milled. I imagine this could require a reasonably stable extension setup that can be dismantled when not in use - which would be possible in my current workplace. Might you have any experience with something similar in practice?

[People have done that, but it never works as well as doing everything at once with a single setup. You can get away with it, though, if the work isn't supposed to appear to be continuous and connected; there's always going to be a little glitch at the junction. ]

- Seeing your website also made me consider building the router myself - so as to better fit my needs and possibly also save a bit on the purchase (I'm also fine with second hand parts that work well). I do have (or may have) access to a metal workshop and am reasonably skilled in the use of metal working tools (including a manually controlled CNC). So I reckon I could build the router myself, however, have only a very vague idea about how long it may take as well as little knowledge of the complexity of making such a router. Any chance you may say a bit about this with my above comments in mind (I know - again asking a "verging on the impossible question ;-) " )? As I wrote in my #1 this is not my main focus so I'm not looking into hundreds of hours invested - but about two weeks (about 80 hours) all in all would be ok with me. Do you think this is realistic? And would you somehow be interested in / be able to guide me from time to time - as to what to buy and what to look (out) for? Maybe suggestions for an already existing build project? Being a bit upfront with my own projects I reckon this may stretch out over some months and I also have a longer vacation coming up ... Just FYI.

[Lots of people here build their own routers, often starting with long lists of things they want it to do and eventually resigning themselves to working within the capabilities of the machines they end up with. But sure, I check in here pretty often, so I'll probably weigh in on your questions, along with other people more knowledgeable than me (and less). A kit would save time, if you're willing to spend more money than for a scratch build. If you're looking for a kit, either the Mechmate or CNCRouterparts machines might be something to check out. If it's just a machine to emulate in your build and you're serious about milling bronze, etc., some of the more heavy-duty build threads here might be of interest, like this one: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...g-machine.html ]

- To possibly address the parallel between 3D modeling programs and programs for routers I can say that the 3D modeling program I use is called MoI3D (an acronym for Moment of Inspiration 3D; MoI, 3D modeling for designers and artists ). IMHO it may be quite simple to use - when I started up using MoI3D I probably was reasonably proficient in its use in about 30 hours - something I have not found to be so with other 3D modeling programs. And when 3D printing (often from STL files but other file types are directly available - I've attached an image of the options) I use the program Cura ( https://ultimaker.com/en/products/cura-software ) which I got a good idea about how to use well in practice in maybe 3 - 5 hours (not knowing about 3D printing when starting). If possible I would appreciate being able to do something similar with router software.

[I like MOI; it;s a lot like Rhino but more stripped-down and affordable. The choice of CAM programs depends on what you're trying to do. As I mentioned, I like DeskProto for artistic sorts of things, but recommend VisualMill for mechanical parts. It's a bit more complicated to learn, but not too bad. It shouldn't take any longer to master than MOI.]

Well, I realize these are many questions - I hope you - or maybe one of the other "forumers" - may be able to give some guidelines as to what is possible / feasible.

Cheers & thanks for any help in this

Jesper

Maybe someone else would like to weigh in?

[evalon]

Hi Andrew ...

Maybe someone else would like to weigh in?

... I'm aware I was asking many questions, yet my wish always is that people reply as they are fine with - so no obligations whatsoever ... I will go on exploring myself and then probably opdate here as the process continues. Maybe some/one of the other members will then reply as things develop.

Cheers,

Jesper

[waltraud]

Go to youtube to start learning for free from one of my condensed CNC DVDs,
Put in my name : Heinz Putz to see it.
Its a condensed version of all CNC skills that I have been teaching to shops around the US and Canada for many years.
Also check out my website: Fanuc CNC programming training. Learn CNC for Fanuc, Yasnac, Mitsubishi CNC controls, CNC Machining Videos and DVD's, CNC programming training, CNC education,and CNC consulting. for the full DVDs and many examples.
Good luck: Heinz

[evalon]

Go to youtube to start learning for free from one of my condensed CNC DVDs,
Put in my name : Heinz Putz to see it.
Its a condensed version of all CNC skills that I have been teaching to shops around the US and Canada for many years.
Also check out my website: Fanuc CNC programming training. Learn CNC for Fanuc, Yasnac, Mitsubishi CNC controls, CNC Machining Videos and DVD's, CNC programming training, CNC education,and CNC consulting. for the full DVDs and many examples.
Good luck: Heinz

Hi Heinz - thanks for the tip - I will look into it

Cheers,

Jesper

[Dangle_kt]

for me I have found the modelling really easy to learn, the difficult bit is the CAM bit onwards, selecting the right strategy can be difficult to understand for complex parts, and figuring out the best way to make the part is also complicated when you have to figure in your available envelope, tooling, work holding...then there is actually running the part, that with a poor setup can sometimes feel like patting your head and rubbing your tummy.

Its all doable, I suggest starting on easy stuff that doesn't matter, and build up alongside youtube tutorials - I have found fusion 360 is well documented and free to hobbyists.

[evalon]

Hi ... thanks for your comments and mentioning fusion 360 ... As it is I already have & use an IMHO very intuitive and simple CAD program (MoI3D) and I basically "just" need to find a way to output these designs so that a CNC router can make them. To this end I'm considering MACH3 (or 4), yet am also open to something like Fusion 360 if it is feasible in my context. And one way it could be feasible was if it were possible to easily import the 3D CAD files I make in MoI3D into fusion 360 and only work with its CAM section ... Do you know if this is possible (I have attached a copy of MoI3D's export file formats) - and also: Do you know if fusion 360 outputs a file/control signals that directly may control the CNC router?

I suggest starting on easy stuff that doesn't matter, and build up alongside youtube tutorials

Sounds sensible to me ... although I don't yet have a CNC machine so I would need to learn by simulation. Although yesterday life smiled at me when I met with a person who has a huge CNC mill and offered to be sort of a guide in this should I have questions. A very fine offer - that I reckon may also be very useful. He even called MACH3 easy to use ( ) - haven't tried it yet but if so then good to hear that something in the CNC world is easy to use ...

Cheers,

Jesper