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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Haas Machines > Haas Mills > Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07
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  1. #21
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    Feb 2007
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    HFO Tech... I do believe he was not talking about a NEW machine, but Haas and Fadal machines of a similar vintage. Say a 2005 model year for both. And why would you pick the SS model and compare it to a standard machine? Just curious...

  2. #22
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    Aug 2015
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by HFO Tech View Post
    Yes, you're correct the fadal control isn't as fast, the specs of a Haas VF-3SS/VF-4SS are almost identical on travels. I do believe the VF-4SS has a slightly bigger table,10" more on Z travel and comes with a side mount tool changer vs a fadal 4020 umbrella tool changer which is extremely slow. If you you got the probing package with the expanded memory, and the High Speed Machining you will knock those parts out in no time. The high speed option lets the control look ahead in the program by a 1000 lines.the side mount tool changer is a 30-40 tool vs a 20-24 umbrella on a fadal.tool changes on the Haas will be a hell of lot more faster. The rapids on the VF-4SS are 1,400 ipm and cutting is 833 I'm. I'm not sure how fast the fadal's are,but from my experience of being around them it's extremely slower than the Haas's. Plus you can get it with a 10-15k spindle vs a fadal 10k spindle. As far as short movements for 3D either machine will run it,but the Haas VF-4SS definitely will machine those parts faster and they have a little bit more of everything than the Fadal 4020.
    I'm pretty sure I'm going to be limited to the vf3 , if I can even go that big, headroom is the problem (doorway). With the Fadal I can pull the motor and track and get it under the doorway. I think I can do the same but only up to a vf3, I'm not sure yet honestly, and I think it may vary depending on the model year. I'd like to stay under 30k, closer to 20 the better.

    Am I correct that 07 and newer machines are brushless w/vector drives? What year did the hsm option begin, is it really significantly that early on?

    If I could have anything it would be the vf4, bigger changer and table and faster everything but it's to tall, which really possess me off considering they are pretty much the same price as a similar vf3...

  3. #23
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    Mar 2010
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    1852

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by tbev View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm going to be limited to the vf3 , if I can even go that big, headroom is the problem (doorway). With the Fadal I can pull the motor and track and get it under the doorway. I think I can do the same but only up to a vf3, I'm not sure yet honestly, and I think it may vary depending on the model year. I'd like to stay under 30k, closer to 20 the better.

    Am I correct that 07 and newer machines are brushless w/vector drives? What year did the hsm option begin, is it really significantly that early on?

    If I could have anything it would be the vf4, bigger changer and table and faster everything but it's to tall, which really possess me off considering they are pretty much the same price as a similar vf3...



    VF-3 and VF-4 are identical in size externally and weight etc. The table and travel on the 4 is bigger though, that's all. I had a 98 that I bought new and that extra 10" of table over the VF-3 and that was why. Tool changer is 20 tools usually. I don't think you need a side tool changer or it is in you budget.

    I have a 1996 and a 1997 (VF-2"s), both are brushless and the 97 has HSM. Don't get hung up on the year, look at condition. If it looks clean, it has probably been better taken care of.

    Mike
    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    133

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    I chose the SS because he was talking about high production or that he wanted to knock out a lot parts. Secondly the SS comes standard with HSM, so in that regard I was giving him that point of view. I'm not even sure if Fadals comes with a SS package. He also never really revealed what price range he was shooting for..so why not tell him about a SS? You can remove sheet metal,remove the side mount tool to lower the height to get it through your door. I mentioned the side mount tool changer because I feel they're far more durable than a umbrella tool changer.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    133

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    If he was concerned with control look ahead, acceleration,deceleration, hsm, and a machine that can out perform the fadal why not mention the SS? Even if he still went the route of a standard vf-3 I do believe the Haas control/ Haas machine is quicker. Imho.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    1852

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    He stated under 30K and closer to 20K.
    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28

  7. #27
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    Aug 2015
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    368

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by Machineit View Post
    VF-3 and VF-4 are identical in size externally and weight etc. The table and travel on the 4 is bigger though, that's all. I had a 98 that I bought new and that extra 10" of table over the VF-3 and that was why. Tool changer is 20 tools usually. I don't think you need a side tool changer or it is in you budget.

    I have a 1996 and a 1997 (VF-2"s), both are brushless and the 97 has HSM. Don't get hung up on the year, look at condition. If it looks clean, it has probably been better taken care of.

    Mike
    I think I would love a 97/98 vf3 with hsm, do you have some pics of any intricate or small parts that you would be able to share? What does do you normally rough out aluminum at, with what cutter?

    The door I have to get under is 82in. If I can pull the motor, cable track and get under it I'm set. That's if I can get the motor back up there, any idea how heavy that thing is, I don't have a forklift inside or a overhead crane or anything. Thanks!

  8. #28
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    Aug 2015
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    368

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by HFO Tech View Post
    I chose the SS because he was talking about high production or that he wanted to knock out a lot parts. Secondly the SS comes standard with HSM, so in that regard I was giving him that point of view. I'm not even sure if Fadals comes with a SS package. He also never really revealed what price range he was shooting for..so why not tell him about a SS? You can remove sheet metal,remove the side mount tool to lower the height to get it through your door. I mentioned the side mount tool changer because I feel they're far more durable than a umbrella tool changer.
    I certainly appreciate I your help, I would be stoaked with an ss but I think it would be pretty beat if I found one in my price range.
    Is the umbrella the next highest part after the motor/track? I don't think I can handle the vf2, it's table it's too small, and if the 3/4 are the same height I'd much rather have the vf4, more table and tool capacity, I'd be in heaven. But I don't know if I can break it down below 82in. Reasonably at last. .

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

  9. #29
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    Mar 2014
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    133

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Yes, once you get the sheet metal off the spindle head the side mount tool changerwould be the second highest point, but if you choose an umbrella one those are inside the main enclosure so it wouldn't give any problems. I could find some assembly drawings so maybe we could get you below 82"

  10. #30
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    Aug 2015
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    That would be AWESOME! I'm looking into a 2002 vf4 right now, maybe a 98 as well, would like to know if they are going to take removing the same parts, and if they are possible at all of course. Thanks again!

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    381

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    While it may be possible to get it into an 82" door, it is going to be a stretch to say the least! And a ton of work, but if you can manage it more power to ya! Just to give you some perspective, I do not have a VF3 or 4. I have a 2002 VF2SS. All leveled up and ready to run, the top of the electrical cabinet and arm that holds the pendant is at 76" from the floor. It is 86" to the top of the regen unit, (coffee pot warmer), and about the same to the top of the sheet metal enclosure the track mounts to. When we moved from our last building, they picked the mill up with their forklift, raised the leveling screws up into the casting, and leaving the forks dragging on the floor, the side mount tool changer cleared the 93" beam down the middle of our building by no more than an 1/8". I also had to take the track loose from the head and electrical cabinet and hold it down to clear that same 93" beam.

    Now, having said that, you are looking at an umbrella style tool changer which should take that completely out of the mix because, as stated above, that should be inside the machine and not above it, or at least not far above it. Also, for that year, the SS head was somewhere between 8 and 10 inches taller than the non-SS models. So that may just fit...BUT...The VF3 and 4 also adds another 5" of vertical travel that my VF2SS does not have. So if we were to assume the cabinet is 5" taller, it's going to be close! I guess, worse comes to worse, get the sawzall out and make the door a little bigger!

    Good luck to you and let us know how it goes!

  12. #32
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    368

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by gizmo_454 View Post
    While it may be possible to get it into an 82" door, it is going to be a stretch to say the least! And a ton of work, but if you can manage it more power to ya! Just to give you some perspective, I do not have a VF3 or 4. I have a 2002 VF2SS. All leveled up and ready to run, the top of the electrical cabinet and arm that holds the pendant is at 76" from the floor. It is 86" to the top of the regen unit, (coffee pot warmer), and about the same to the top of the sheet metal enclosure the track mounts to. When we moved from our last building, they picked the mill up with their forklift, raised the leveling screws up into the casting, and leaving the forks dragging on the floor, the side mount tool changer cleared the 93" beam down the middle of our building by no more than an 1/8". I also had to take the track loose from the head and electrical cabinet and hold it down to clear that same 93" beam.

    Now, having said that, you are looking at an umbrella style tool changer which should take that completely out of the mix because, as stated above, that should be inside the machine and not above it, or at least not far above it. Also, for that year, the SS head was somewhere between 8 and 10 inches taller than the non-SS models. So that may just fit...BUT...The VF3 and 4 also adds another 5" of vertical travel that my VF2SS does not have. So if we were to assume the cabinet is 5" taller, it's going to be close! I guess, worse comes to worse, get the sawzall out and make the door a little bigger!

    Good luck to you and let us know how it goes!
    Thanks buddy! I'm kinda stuck now, I'm trying to figure out just how fast I can hog out aluminum with a non HSM machine. I know I can take a big bite, and that will make up for a lot, but I've been hearing crazy slow numbers from people. I really need to go see some machines run I guess. Ive been considering a Fadal 4020, same year range, astounds 20K, but I'm heading they are stupid slow as well, slower than an equivalent year Haas maybe, but again I don't really know.

    Thanks for that info gizmo, much appreciated.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

  13. #33
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    Feb 2009
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    311

    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by tbev View Post
    Thanks buddy! I'm kinda stuck now, I'm trying to figure out just how fast I can hog out aluminum with a non HSM machine. I know I can take a big bite, and that will make up for a lot, but I've been hearing crazy slow numbers from people. I really need to go see some machines run I guess. Ive been considering a Fadal 4020, same year range, astounds 20K, but I'm heading they are stupid slow as well, slower than an equivalent year Haas maybe, but again I don't really know.

    Thanks for that info gizmo, much appreciated.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

    For aluminum work I think the max spindle speed is usually the limiting factor, unless you're using relatively large cutters. Roughing in particular doesn't need very accurate tool paths, which means that they can be pretty heavily arc filtered on the CAM side. That being the case the HSM option on the Haas machines doesn't really gain you much. But even if it did, it's a software option that can be turned on at any time. Just buy the option and they give you an unlock code to punch in on the control.

    As for the Fadals, I have no clue there.


    C|

  14. #34
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by cygnus x-1 View Post
    For aluminum work I think the max spindle speed is usually the limiting factor, unless you're using relatively large cutters. Roughing in particular doesn't need very accurate tool paths, which means that they can be pretty heavily arc filtered on the CAM side. That being the case the HSM option on the Haas machines doesn't really gain you much. But even if it did, it's a software option that can be turned on at any time. Just buy the option and they give you an unlock code to punch in on the control.

    As for the Fadals, I have no clue there.


    C|
    Thanks bud, much appreciated! Odds a bit harder to find 10k spindles on Haas machines, from what I've seen so far. I'm kinda unimpressed really, I'm cutting at 130ipm in my little Tormach Chinese toy mills. I know a "real" Haas/Fadal machine are going to get the job done faster by taking a bigger bite, but I expected it to be a bit more of a difference. I'm pulling parts out off miteebite clamps already, with one horsepower, pulling on them with ten, twenty thirty hp I don't have much faith, that's one reason I'm really looking at the speed to make the difference.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

  15. #35
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by tbev View Post
    Thanks bud, much appreciated! Odds a bit harder to find 10k spindles on Haas machines, from what I've seen so far. I'm kinda unimpressed really, I'm cutting at 130ipm in my little Tormach Chinese toy mills. I know a "real" Haas/Fadal machine are going to get the job done faster by taking a bigger bite, but I expected it to be a bit more of a difference. I'm pulling parts out off miteebite clamps already, with one horsepower, pulling on them with ten, twenty thirty hp I don't have much faith, that's one reason I'm really looking at the speed to make the difference.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

    Ahh, ok. I was going to mention that as well. If you're making little fiddly parts where work holding is not the strongest, that can be a limitation as well. If you're already pulling parts from the clamps then a faster machine may not help you much. Taking lighter cuts might produce a lower cutting force for each chip, but if you cut more chips per second will you end up with the same pulling force on the part? I'm not really sure. It's an interesting question.


    I get the feeling that back in the late 1990s and early 2000s the idea of HSM (small radial DOC at high feed) was still fairly new territory. I wasn't seriously into CNC then (so I'm not certain) but I think most CAM programs didn't have HSM tool paths until around 2005 or later. The first I had heard of it was I think Mastercam X3(?), which was right around when I first got into CNC, about 2008. So the machines back then really weren't designed for it.


    C|

  16. #36
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    From what I've been hearing you have to have a 2005ish or newer Haas for it to handle cutting at speeds over 150 IPM without gouging or otherwise having trouble with accel \ decel and reading code. The reason I'm concerned with HSM options are just that I want a machine that will cut as fast as my little Tormachs do. I cant imagine stepping up to a Haas and not being able to reach half of the stated cutting feed rate with a 3d adaptive toolpath. Is that really the case? I have also been looking at old fadal 4020's and I have come to the conclusion that they are really only god for up to 100 IPM roughing and maybe 50 IPM finishing in adaptive toolpaths, with the right retrofit they will supposedly do 250 IPM and hold a thou of tolerance but I haven't seen that yet. I'm wondering how fast pre 2000 mills can hold a thou in an adaptive tool path? How about 2000- 2005, 2005 to 2010? Anyone have an Idea?

    As far as workholding goes I wouldn't expect to be able to use the same setup that I'm using on a 1.5hp machine on a "real" machine, I think there's pretty much always a way to hold things down. I want to be able to take bigger bites with the bigger machine but I think I'm going to run into parts coming out of the clamps or whatever at some point so my real concern is getting a machine that will be able to move fast enough to get the job done quickly without having to take a monster bite.

  17. #37
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    Feb 2012
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    How do you know the tormach is holding tolerance?

    I'd suggest finding a shop that will let you see their machine in action, you will probably get a different impression on what to do.

    My impression is that you may not realize the real difference between a hobby machine vs a production machine until you see one in action, even an old haas.

  18. #38
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    Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by erikfriesen View Post
    How do you know the tormach is holding tolerance?

    I'd suggest finding a shop that will let you see their machine in action, you will probably get a different impression on what to do.

    My impression is that you may not realize the real difference between a hobby machine vs a production machine until you see one in action, even an old haas.
    I hope so, I am trying to see some machines in action, I haven't found much in the way of old Haas mills doing adaptive tool paths on YouTube, I want to go see some I person, I just haven't found any local shops with them. I'm hoping an old Haas will do it, the older the better IMO. I was just talking to a guy with an 03 Fadal and he's cutting around 300 IPM, he says that as long as you work with the CAM and keep the tolerance and rads a little loose you can run fast and then slow down and clean it up. That's one of the newer, old Fadal machines, it's got the 32mb controller which is quite a bit better than the previous years in handling programs. I'm hoping that a like year Haas it's a little better than the similar Fadal, controller wise. But like you said, I really need to see some in action I think.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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