[MaletaBG]

Hi,

I am about to acquire new CNC mill for my workshop. I mainly do aluminium, sheet metal stuff, 4-6 mm thick plates with many slots and holes (reason I do it on mill is 1x1 mm 45 degree edge chamfer on all edges). I will maybe do some billet stuff like handlebar risers, but nothing larger and more serious. I also need to cut some steel from time to time - fixture plates mostly. I use small tools for aluminium milling - 6 mm end mills mostly, some 4 mm and 8 mm, nothing larger, so I need fast spindle. I manufacture my own line of products, in small series (100-200 pieces at a time) and I won't do any milling for anyone else.
Considering my location and service I can get locally, I narrowed my options to few Haas machines - DM-1, DT-1 or Super Minimill 2. 400x500 work envelope will be enough for my products. I am a bit limited with space so I would skip VF-1 since I won't do any hard milling. All these machines, if equipped with 15.000 spindle, Renishaw probing system, minimum quantity lubrication system, automatic air gun and chip auger have very similar costs. Is there a reason to choose one over others, for my needs?

I use Solidworks + HSMXPress for CAD/CAM, so I guess I won't need High speed machining option from Haas as I can generate HSM toolpaths from HSMXpress? Is that correct?

Also, are there any other options for these machines I should consider?


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[dertsap]

the super mini mill has my vote . Extremely capable machine for the size . I went from working heavy machinery at one shop to another shop that has quite a few mini's as well as vf2's .The mini seemed almost toy like in comparison to what I was used to working with and I was worried that I'd over estimate their capabilities but I actually underestimated them . For the size of machine that they are they can take a pretty heavy cut in aluminum or steel . And they are very reliable .
I'd recommend taking a couple of options into consideration , the high speed machining option and the macro variables option as well . The high speed option makes a massive difference on the machine jerkiness , especially on short lines of code or surfacing . Macro variables flat out have so many everyday uses that its good to have on hand

[MaletaBG]

the super mini mill has my vote . Extremely capable machine for the size . I went from working heavy machinery at one shop to another shop that has quite a few mini's as well as vf2's .The mini seemed almost toy like in comparison to what I was used to working with and I was worried that I'd over estimate their capabilities but I actually underestimated them . For the size of machine that they are they can take a pretty heavy cut in aluminum or steel . And they are very reliable .
I'd recommend taking a couple of options into consideration , the high speed machining option and the macro variables option as well . The high speed option makes a massive difference on the machine jerkiness , especially on short lines of code or surfacing . Macro variables flat out have so many everyday uses that its good to have on hand

Thanks! From what I read, I figure HSM option is really needed for what I do, so I will go for it. I am still not sure if I need macro's or additional memory. What do you use macro's for?
Somehow I do like SMinimill2 most, just trying to figure out if other two are more capable in some way.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Billetgrip]

If you're getting the probing system it will already have the macro option.

[precisionmetal]

... and if you plan on using small (sub 1/4") endmills, I'd recommend the fastest spindle you can get.

[dertsap]

Thanks! From what I read, I figure HSM option is really needed for what I do, so I will go for it. I am still not sure if I need macro's or additional memory. What do you use macro's for?
Somehow I do like SMinimill2 most, just trying to figure out if other two are more capable in some way.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I commonly use variables for programming sub routines on multi part fixtures which use g52 shifts (G52 x#101 Y#102 Z.......) . It's easier to change the value of one variable in a program header rather than edit a bunch of g52 moves throughout the program if something needs to be shifted . I also use them the odd time to create custom peck tapping cycles . And I really like to use variables to calculate g52 shifts on rotaries , this way I only need to qualify three points (xyz) at A0. and the machine will calculate a g52 shift for all rotated positions afterwards as long as I programmed each rotated position from the same datum points.
Most cnc's are well equipped to do calculations including functions like trig , so the possibilities are endless once a guy gets used to using macro variables . They aren't an absolute necessity but they sure are nice to have

[MaletaBG]

Thanks, folks, I appreciate all info and opinions.
It seems clear now what options I need and what is above my level of expertise.
I just need to figure out DT-1 vs DM-1 vs Sminimill2. Good thing is that all will do what I need them to do.
DM-1 is most advanced, no doubt. But is 40 taper necessity for aluminium milling I will mostly do. Is 30 taper tooling on DT-1 capable to mill some steel fixturing plates once in a while?
On the other hand, there is Sminimill2. Downside of (properly equipped) Sminimill2 is lack of side mount TC. I never had any TC on machines I worked on, so I don't have much experience. Slower changes is something I could live with, reliability is my primary concern. I will mostly use minimum qty lubrication system, so I guess chips will be flying in there...

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Machineit]

First thing to consider in 30 vs 40 tooling it the cost. 40 taper is MUCH less expensive, MUCH!

Mike

[MaletaBG]

First thing to consider in 30 vs 40 tooling it the cost. 40 taper is MUCH less expensive, MUCH!

Mike

Thanks!
You are talking about toolholders, right? I will probably go for BT (30 or 40, depending on machine) since I am from Europe. I see on some web pages (Maritool) that prices of BT30 and BT40 are close. What am I missing?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[dertsap]

you'll probably find that the 40 taper will be much more rigid than a 30 . I've never run 30 tapers but I've found a bit difference between the 40 and 50 , and I'm sure it's the same between the 30 and 40 .
40 tapers are common so the variety of holder styles will most likely be greater and more accessible than the 30 . Haas sells there own brand of holder and I'd recommend avoiding them . In my opinion they are junk and we had to pull all the haas holders off the floor over time .
I have no experience with the other two drill/mills , but from what you describe - I'd say that you'd be happy with the mini . The difference in price could buy a whole lot of accessories .

[precisionmetal]

One nice thing about having CAT-40 is that your friends with Haas machines typically have a lot of tooling you can borrow in a pinch.

PM

[LeeWay]

Yeah the DT version is really designed for drilling and tapping ops. That can get away with smaller tooling because of the forces involved. Any real machining would benefit from the larger tool holders.

[HFO Tech]

DM or DT. The umbrella tool changer system is garbage. The DT & DM are designed for super rapids for drilling and tapping, but i know plenty of customer that have no issues if yhey have to mill something from time to time. In my honest professional opinion from working on these machines for the last 12 yrs. You're better off with the DT/DM versions

- - - Updated - - -

DM or DT. The umbrella tool changer system is garbage. The DT & DM are designed for super rapids for drilling and tapping, but i know plenty of customer that have no issues if yhey have to mill something from time to time. In my honest professional opinion from working on these machines for the last 12 yrs. You're better off with the DT/DM versions

- - - Updated - - -

DM or DT. The umbrella tool changer system is garbage. The DT & DM are designed for super rapids for drilling and tapping, but i know plenty of customer that have no issues if yhey have to mill something from time to time. In my honest professional opinion from working on these machines for the last 12 yrs. You're better off with the DT/DM versions

[gizmo_454]

Our Mini Mill is a decent machine. I looked at the Super Mini Mill 2 when they came out, but their price point is roughly the same as a similarly equipped VF1. For a few bucks more, a VF2 can be had, which is the same physical footprint as the VF1, but you gain an extra 10" of X travel. We chose the VF2 for several reasons. It is a lot more rigid than the Mini Mill series, due to a full cast iron base. The Mini Mill series sits on a weldment. Also, the VF has a separate coolant tank. The Mini Mill series' coolant tank is integrated into the base of the machine, and is a major pain to clean out. There are only a couple small access holes in the side of the Mini Mill series vs. the tank on the VF being separate from the machine on rollers and you can remove the top of the tank making easy access for clean out. Also, the vertical travel of the Mini Mill series can be very limiting.

Having said all of that, knowing you are not looking for a heavy duty machine and you are space limited, I would bypass the Mini Mill series and go for the DM/DT machine. It is a solid cast iron base and has an external coolant tank like the VF series has. Not to mention, it's extremely fast. You will want the HSM option, as stated before. While I do not personally have one, I have heard that the anchoring kit is a must. Apparently, the movements are so quick that without the anchoring kit, the machine will end up moving all over the shop floor. Given your description of types of work you do, 30 or 40 taper will be a personal preference. The 30 taper should do what you are looking to do, especially if using high speed tool paths when machining steel. The 40 taper will just be heavier duty.

:cheers:

[Ydna]

I would choose the DT series machine so long as you can spend more money for it. The DT and DM have many improvements over the Minimills, while the MM are good machines they really get outperformed in almost every way when comparing it to a DT. I've owned both machines, used to own a 2008 Superminimill but currently own a 2013 DT1.
The DT's external coolant tank is much easier for cleaning and maintenance, and the toolchanger is much easier to menage compared to the umbrella that Haas refuses to ditch.
The DT requires a bit more floorspace but it isn't much since the coolant tank is on wheels and can be moved a little bit.
The only downside I ever see with our DT is the ballscrews being much more coarse which allows it faster rapids...we can't do extremely fast 3d operations with it unless the program is specifically made to avoid 3d corners. We still use it for 3d work, just have to program differently. It's accuracy is more or less the same for general purpose work.

The big performance difference with the DT is the faster RPM available out of the box, and more importantly, the fact that the spindle has more than double the power available to it when running at various speeds. Even with the smaller taper you still run into torque limitations. You need that high RPM, and having some power behind it will only make things easier. The tradeoff is that the DT comes at a higher price, but if you were to go with the cheaper machine, you will be stuck with the limited RPM and power regardless of what you end up making in the future.
We don't use the DT for heavy roughing, in fact I specifically avoid it and instead run fast to achieve similar results. I rarely use a tool larger than 3/8" or 9.5mm (using ER16 holders). Using a modern CAM package like HSM will do the job great. There isn't a substitution for raw power of a larger-class machine, but you can still get good cost-effective results.

For general purpose work (and small production) I'd propose any of the three machines would do the job for you, but personally I would elect for the more specific platform if you KNOW you won't need more power for larger tools, and if your budget allows it. That's probably the final deciding factor

I don't have any first-hand experience with the DM1 outside of seeing the demo cutting programs. It seems to be almost the same machine, just larger toolholder for more rigidity. It's probably preferable for general-purpose work. I wouldn't have a problem looking into it if I were in the market for a new mill.

See the attached picture which shows spindle power. I overlaid the minimill, superminimill, and DT1 then normalized the graphs together. Unfortunately I don't have the chart for the DM1 so maybe somebody with access to newer specs can get it...

[MaletaBG]

Thanks everyone. Still haven't decided. I am trying to find some of these machines nearby, to check it out.

Ydna, very helpful post, thanks. DT-1 is top contender. I am very sure I won't use anything larger than 8mm mills, and I do only 2 1/2 d milling.

And price of SMM2 with 15k RPM spindle and some extras is very close to the price of DT-1 with same extras (Renishaw, HSM, MQL cooling...)

In the meantime, I got a quotation for Robodrill D21MiB5, with 24RPM BT30 spindle and probing system - 117.000 EUR. -.- Almost double the price of DT-1 with Renishaw and few more extras... I am in Serbia, Europe, btw...

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Dallas J]

Reading through probably the same things as you right now comparing DT-1 vs SMM2 vs VF2, the two things that have sorta dropped DT-1 off my list are the spindle and table weight. Specifically on the spindle, and correct me if I have the wrong info, but it has ceramic bearings which are much less robust for heavy roughing. The max table weight is also only 250lbs as rated which would be taken up with 3 vices pretty quick.

I think the BT30 thing is way overblown considering the Brother machines are using BT(or cat?)30 tool holders and arguable rough better than Haas if you believe what the interwebs tells you. I'm really hoping to find a way to fit the VF2 but need to see some roughing data for the Mini before I can make my mind up.

[Ydna]

I don't know about the standard 8100-RPM spindles, but the superspeed VF mills also use ceramic bearings. I'm not sure about the 10krpm SMM. It was a factor when we purchased our SMM back in the day but I can't remember which way it went.

It's only an issue if you SEVERELY crash the machine, over and over, but if that occurs then you may have other things to worry about. I'll be honest, I've seen some superspeeds that have been beat to ****, crashed literally every month...but are still perfectly functional, trammed, and have no performance issues. Perfect example - I did training at a factory last year, where the first thing I had to do was help them recover their machine after an ER collet nut was friction welded right into the top of the table. (supposedly it has a 1/16" endmill inside...lol)

For the sake of completeness I should mention that the spindles actually have "mostly" ceramic bearings, but some of the bearings are steel. They're made like that because some people use conductivity-edgefinders, which only work if the spindle has at least some steel to conduct the signal. For what it's worth...

[LeeWay]

Spindle speed is certainly a big consideration when machining mostly aluminum. My Pulsar came stock with 4500 RPM spindle speed under Mach 3. Of course it can machine aluminum at that speed. Less than optimal parameters for tool life, cycle speed etc.
When I switched over to Path Pilot, I was able to increase the speed to 5200 RPM. That and the way Linux controls the machine made it seem as though it was indeed a new machine. Much smoother quieter movements and crisper responses. It machined aluminum better too with only a 700 RPM increase.
The MM has another 800 RPM spindle increase over that, so I know that alone would make it preform better in aluminum.
I had 6600 RPM on my home made mill and that really was a nice speed. So an increase to 8000 should do quite well. If doing lots of production work and possibly dry machining, I can see the benefit of the 12 or 15 thousand RPM spindles.
Now consider when something does go wrong. If you do need a new high speed spindle replacement, I am pretty sure that it would cost significantly more than a lower speed one. Damage possible from larger tools at that kind of speed could be a concern too.
While i am comfortable with the 6000 RPM limit for the MM, I did consider the 8000 RPM options for other models too. Somewhere in that range is a sweet spot for the type of work that we do. We will just have to stay a little below the sweet spot.