584,837 active members*
5,715 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    39

    ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    When I was researching CNC machines about a two years ago, I read a lot of the build threads and problem posts on here. They were very helpful in making my mind up to purchase a PRO4896. Something you notice is that the posts taper off once people have their machines built and bugs worked out. So in light of that, I'm going to do a one year post-build update of sorts.

    MY MACHINE - I purchased the PRO4896 with the NEMA 34 Plug and Play electronics. Initially I used the router mount with a 2HP Hitachi Router. My machine was purchased just before the switch over to linear rails. I did not purchase the leg set, opting to fabricate a wooden base with large laminated timber beams. My base weighs about 400 - 500 pounds I estimate. I purchased a Lenovo Think Pad laptop ($250 on Amazon) to use as a dedicated machine to run Mach 3 . The computer sits on a rolling cart I built that also holds my bits, tools, and misc supplies. I mounted an inexpensive 27" HDTV to an arm on the cart for better, eye-level, visibility. I also purchased a second Think Pad specifically for the design software - Vetric, Mozaik, Fusion, etc.

    MY SHOP/BUSINESS - I have a 2500 s.f. cabinet/woodworking shop in a two year old all steel building. It's insulated with gas heat, 3-phase power, and all high intensity LED lighting. We fabricate custom built-in cabinetry, architectural millwork, and interior design elements. Occasionally we will build kitchen cabinets but that is not really our focus as the field is fairly full of cabinet manufactures and we aren't interested in competing. We design some of our products, but usually receive CAD drawings from interior designers we work with. Sometimes we get actual files from them for certain design elements we are going to directly cut out, mostly decorative panels and screens. I have five employees - one office and four shop/field.

    SOFTWARE - We purchased MACH 3 and Vectric CUT 2-D with the machine. We upgraded our Vectic software to V-CARVE PRO a few month later. I have played around with Fusion but more so for generating 3-d files for my home 3-d Printer. We are looking into the slicing features currently for some 3 dimensional furniture projects. From what I read the tool paths created by the Vectric or Mozaik programs we use will work better with a CNCRP machine than the Fusion paths, which might require some tinkering (time I don't have)

    THE BUILD - Aside from some minor issues, all mistakes on my part, and quickly corrected thanks to quick help from the awesome folks at CNC Router Parts, I had the machine up and running within a month. During the build, CNC Router Parts issued the newer linear rail version of this machine. I was offered an upgrade at an extremely discounted price given my very recent purchase of the older kit, but elected to stick with the v rail version as it was operating fine. I'm still not sure an upgrade is worth while until I notice wear or bearing issues wit the v rail system.

    SPOILBOARD - I'm using 3/4" MDF with a non-standard attachment method. I'm sure there are a million reasons why I should be doing it this way, but since I have a wood base with a wood top that the machine is bolted too, I simply drill holes with a forstner bit about 3/8" into the sheet immediately adjacent to the cross rails and use long GRK lag screws to attach. It's a very quick process and haven't had any deflection or stability problems. Technically the spoil board and the frame of the machine aren't directly connected, both being attached to the machine base. I surface the board with an the Amana mini spoil board cutter with replaceable cutters.

    WORK HOLD DOWN - I purchased the composite nailer and 1 1/4" nails with the machine. This system while not being anywhere near as good as a vacuum table, is fast and does work. You need to use tabbing.

    DUST COLLECTION - My machine is located some distance from the main trunk of my shop dust collection system - a 3hp cyclone - so I opted for an independent dust collection system for this machine. I went with a small General collector with a canister filter. This cleans easy with the crank arm, however, the bag is smaller and fills up fast. The bag is also a pain to change. The filter is problematic - it's easy to clean out the pleats with the cleaning arm, but this can only be done when the machine is not running and the blower has stopped spinning. Large MDF cuts clog the filter and I have to shut down mid-cut to clean and between the shut down and the loss of efficiency during the cut, dust collection isn't very effective at times. I purchased the Kent Dust Shoe. When I upgraded to a spindle I had to purchase a new Kent Shoe. These shoes work great and are easy to remove and replace. Not much visible wear on this after a year. Initially a 4" hose was extended above machine using a few bungees attached to a steel i-beam column of my shop wall. Later, to improve this system I added a steel cable across my shop that runs along the center line of the CNC machine about 10' above the table. The 4" hose is attached to pulleys that run along the cable. This set up allows for very smooth movement of the hose with no potential for impeding machine operation. I intend to change out the small dust collector for a smaller (1 1/2 HP) Jet Cyclone dust collector. This will be easier to empty and will keep filter clear of most clogs. I also recently installed a Holz-her vertical panel saw adjacent to the CNC machine that has a bag dust collection attachment but is also a hassle to empty. I will tie both machines into the newer cyclone.

    SPINDLE - As mentioned, I upgraded to the CNC Router Parts Spindle/electronics after using the router for a few months. I'm glad I started with a router as I managed to bend the shaft of the first router. The installation of the spindle was straightforward. I'd would have liked a larger spindle so I could cut at faster speeds, but it has been adequate so far.

    MOZAIK CABINET SOFTWARE - I'd thought of using the Vectric software to produce cabinetry components. It's possible to do this, but after looking into Mozaik cabinet design software I decided to try it for three months. It's an yearly subscription type arrangement that works out to about $125 a month. This is still cheaper than most other similar products and with the subscription you aren't stuck with one version of the software as it is updated frequently with improvements and bug fixes. I've had for around a year and there have been many improved features during. Purchasing the yearly subscription comes with two hours of phone training (two one hour sessions) The first helps get the software loaded and set-up for your specific uses, along with a little training. The second is to get the software working with your machine. The initial training session was helpful, the second was not. The person from Mozaik in the second session didn't really listen to my specific integration issues and didn't understand the CNC Router Parts machine and it's limitations. He was a horrible listener and spent at least half the time basically telling me if I wanted to learn more I should pay for a few more training hours. The software they sent me to enable the program to generate G-code for a CNCRP machine didn't work. I had to debug it myself and change a few lines of code myself. They had the z axis set up completely reversed (which cost me a Hitachi router as I bent the shaft of the router) After I fixed this I began to realize that this software is designed for us with a much larger CNC machine. A big problem was that it had options to set the number of passes for pocketing operations, but as I found out later, this feature wasn't active yet (I believe it is now) Pocketing operations for say, RAFIX fasteners were done in one plunge - far too aggressive for a CNCRP machine. I broke a lot of bits due to this flaw. The drawing program works well and produces good drawings for presentation. Setting things up for how you build cabinets is a little awkward - almost too many variables that can be changed in multiple menus. The nesting works well and there are now easy options for recutting specific pieces if needed. Another nice feature is that if you use tabbing, which I do, the machine generates a tool path for cutting out the tabs. I run this last on each sheet and it gently cuts away the tabs - almost vacuum table production. Since Mozaik assumes most users will have a ATC on their machine, the tool path creation is geared more toward that. You can opt out of things for a CNCRP machine where you are changing tooling manually, but saving the individual tool paths can be tedious. Some runs we have can be up to 15 sheets of material. This means saving up to 60 individual tool path files and changing the g-code in Mach 3 after each run. Files would be for - 5mm hole drilling, pockets (dados and rabbets), profile (cutting out pieces), and tab removal (last path on each sheet) Typically we need to change out to 5mm bit for just the shelf hole machining. The trouble is that if you group the remaining paths (that use the same tool) into a single tool path, the program picks the order of operations and for some reasons picks the worst possible arrangement. When I tried this it ran the tab removal paths first. Besides needing the tabs until the very end, once again there was no allowance for a stepped plunge - just a violent one shot thing that could have damaged the machine. With the newer version of Mozaik, it's easy to rearrange the nested sheets and what we tend to do lately is to group things, if possible to keep the actual tool changing to a minimum, since this involves swapping the bit and re-zeroing the z axis each time. We also try to group the cabinet backs onto sheets in order to cut these on our vertical panel saw. The panel saw is very precise and cuts very smooth. I just figured its more economical from a time and tooling standpoint to cut out the backs the old-fashioned way. Also, I can do this while the machine is cutting out the other parts. A nice feature with Mozaik is that you can select machines in the nesting section. If you select "Table Saw" instead of CNC Router, it will nest the parts for optimum cutting on a table saw, or in our case, a vertical panel saw. There are a few other flaws with Mozaik that you need to work around at times. We use 1 1/4 door overlays. As far as I can tell you can't adjust the overlays for the side and top/bottom of doors so if you don't have at least a 2 3/4" face frame rail between, doors will overlap - no feature to catch this automatically. You need to either manually correct the door sizing or adjust the face frame. Every version of the program fixes bugs and awkward features and adds some new ones. They update at least a few times a year with new versions. Despite the steep learning curve, I'd recommend this program for the value and extensive features (once you master all of them) . If we constructed generic kitchen cabinetry we would have fewer glitches, and in fact, Mozaik even has a feature to automatically populate a room with kitchen cabinets. Would save a lot of time if this is all you did.

    CABINET CONSTRUCTION - We keep it simple. Cabinet casework is all 3/4" maple plywood (pre-finished if solid doors, un-finished if to be painted) This includes the back panels. There are pros and cons to going with such thick backs. It does make the cabinets much heavier, and costs a little more, but this is outweighed by, stronger construction, more gluing area, elimination of nailers (these look cheap in my opinion), not handling multiple materials, and ease of installation. All casework is fit together with dados. Maple face frames are used, attached with pocket screws and glue. Once cut on the CNC the cabinet components are labeled, using a label printing feature in Mozaik. I originally labeled parts with masking tape and sharpie. After mixing up a few pieces we switched to the printed labels - We place on the edge of the piece so they end up on the back of the cabinet or buried in some dado. Having more information than on a piece of masking tape helps to keep things organized. A nice feature with Mozaik is that you can adjust the scribe on all sides of the cabinet and the back as needed. This allows the use of wide face frame stiles instead of using filler pieces. Cleaner look to your finished products.

    OTHER CUTTING - We do a myriad of other fabrication operations using the CNCRP machine. No sign making - mostly interior and exterior architectural details. The newer molding feature on the latest version (I think latest) of V-Carve has been a moneymaker for us - for our own work and for other contractors.

    TOOLING - Information on proper tooling was sparse when we first started running our CNCRP machine. What was out there sort of lead me to believe I needed to be using expensive compression bits on everything. After breaking many many bits, I realized that a standard 2-flute bit cuts out 3/4 maple ply fine with nice edges. At $16-17 a bit it's easier to just add one or two to each job and use fresh ones and toss the old. We haven't really hooked up with a tooling rep yet, but have been using either Whiteside or Freud. Most other tooling are Amana bits ordered on-line. We have cut most materials except for metals on the machine - wood, plywood, melamine, mdf, composites, plastic, foam, etc. One material that I'm not a fan of cutting on a CNCRP machine is melamine. It's difficult to secure as it's a slippery material and dulls bits fast. If all you intend to cut is melamine, you might want to get a more powerful machine with a vacuum hold down. We are getting into closet/storage systems more, but are using a hybrid fabrication system - CNCRP machine for hole drilling and other pocketing machining, but all cuts are being done on the Holz-her Panel Saw. The Holz-her has an unique scoring attachment (not a rotating scoring blade) that gives us glass sharp edges that edge band very nicely. It was not possible to get as sharp edges with a router bit.

    SUMMING IT UP - Please take this as a "what works for me" with my unique circumstances. Overall I have zero complaints about the CNCRP machines and was probably one of the best moves I made purchasing it. There customer service and commitment to their product is stellar. The Vectric software is great - not sure if I need to upgrade to Aspire, but that is possibly in the future. The Mozaik software had a steep learning curve but at the end of the day, it works for me, and at the end of the day is much less of a financial commitment than KCW or 20/20 or Cabinet vision. Will I upgrade the machine to linear rails? Maybe, but not in a rush. I need a new zeroing plate as I've managed to mangle ours one too many times. They were out last time I checked but will order as soon as new shipment is in. I will be redoing the dust collection to improve efficiency and make changing out dust easier. Other than that I will continue to use the machine. It's hard to figure the number, but if I had to guess, I've cut at least 500 sheets of material in the past year. Only recommendation I have is that I would start out with a router, especially if you are using unfamiliar software Destroying a $100 router is a lot less disconcerting than a $1700 spindle. Also, since Vetric upgrades are reasonable, I would probably start out with Cut 2-d Keep the features limited until you master them, and then had more in V-Carve or Aspire. This worked for me as when I went to V-Carve, learning the new features seemed easier, already knowing the basics. I would be happy to answer any questions. Again, just my one year experience with a CNCRP machine - looking forward to many more.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    9
    In the beginning, I had some of the same problems you've had with mozaik. I quickly realized the z was reversed but fortunately I did a dry run, not cutting anything. It was a simple fix in the post processor. Then I cut a test cabinet and quickly broke a bit. The default feeds/speeds are not optimized for this machine. It is a easy fix to change plunge depths, feed rates, and spindle speed though. Once I slowed things down it has worked beautifully. It sounds like you need to make some changes in your CNC tooling library too.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35538

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    One material that I'm not a fan of cutting on a CNCRP machine is melamine. It's difficult to secure as it's a slippery material and dulls bits fast. If all you intend to cut is melamine, you might want to get a more powerful machine with a vacuum hold down. We are getting into closet/storage systems more, but are using a hybrid fabrication system - CNCRP machine for hole drilling and other pocketing machining, but all cuts are being done on the Holz-her Panel Saw. The Holz-her has an unique scoring attachment (not a rotating scoring blade) that gives us glass sharp edges that edge band very nicely. It was not possible to get as sharp edges with a router bit.
    The top tooling companies offer compression bits made of harder carbide that can give much better tool life. But to really take advantage of them, you need a lot of power, and need to cut very fast. Vortex XP series is one example.
    One way to greatly extend tool life, is to rough cut your parts about .015-.02" oversize with a downcut bit, then finish with a compression spiral. The compression bit will last much longer. I use this technique for laminated panels, as laminate destroys standard carbide tools pretty fast.

    Also, always conventional cut when cutting melamine. Climb cutting will leave a much poorer cut.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    39

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    What changes to my tooling library should I be making? Glad I wasn't the only one to experience the Mozaik issues. I did use a spacer block to dry run machine so caught the z-error too before destroying anything. I still managed to bend a cheap router when I tried making knock down frameless cabinets in Mozaik. The plunge on the Rafix holes and notches was not pretty. When I say destroy a router - the shaft bent very very slightly. I only found out this after I noticed my 5mm shelf pegs were a little more loosey-goosey than usual. The slight bent shaft was increasing the diameter of everything by fractions of a millimeter. The funny thing was that Mozaik had settings for step plunge cuts which I had set for a not to aggressive plunge prior to running the frameless KD - I tried a few more times thinking I had missed something but just nasty sounding plunges. When I talked to the company during the free phone training (this happens a month or more after you purchase the software) I brought this up. They said although the features were in the program to set the plunge in steps, they weren't operational yet - would have been nice to have a flashing red light or something next to it, or not allow you to change the settings. They might be operational now - haven't tried lately. Since we work almost solely in MDF, plywood, or plastic, and build framed cabinets. This isn't much of an issue for us.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    9

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    You can set your pass depth and your plunge depth on the tool properties tab of your tool library. If your material is 0.75 inches and your pass depth is set to 0.25 inches then it will take 3 passes to cut the material. I haven't done the phone support, but in your case it doesn't seem like a bad idea. Also, read their forum and check out their video tutorials. I'm sure this is covered the. For melamine​, I strictly use compression bits. Ger21 gives you some good advise. I might also mention that I use mortise compression bits and set my pass depth deep enough that the first pass is deeper than the upcut portion of the bit. I also had v-con rails and all my small circles were ​elliptical. I upgraded to the profile rails because the old rails just had too much flex to do right radii. Even now, there is a lot of flex in the machine despite my efforts to tighten it up.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    164

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    Glad to hear your happy with your machine . I almost bought one just before they changed to linear bearings . I decided to wait as I'm jumping the gun a bit till I get my garage insulated .

    Now I'm debating to scratch build one , but I'm always up in the air about it . I think it's going to cost me about the same amount to build one as to buy a pro version 4x4 , so unless I can design and build one stronger than the pro version , I don't see the point ? Unless you like headaches and frustration lol .
    I was definitely going to build the electronics myself though .

    One thing about CNCRP , I've talked to them and they seemed very helpful and professional, and I've never heard a bad thing about them so far .
    I'm in western Canada , so that's a bonus seeing as there based out of Seattle shipping wise .

    I can get a 4x4 in my garage quite easily, but I have a feeling I'm going to kick myself if I don't get a 4x8 for the extra thousand bucks . This is basically a hobby for me , and I'm not sure if sheet goods will be neccesary. I want to make signs and 3D carvings , but a friend of mine does need speakers made from Baltic birch on occasion though

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    39

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    Right, I did all that when I first purchased Mozaik - my point was that the feature only worked for profile cutting, but for pocketing, like the holes and slots for KD rafix connectors, despite setting non-aggressive pass depths to make the pockets in three passes, the program still did in a single very aggressive pass. As I also said, I did take the free phone support and when I brought this up their response was that despite being able to set pass depth for pocketing, the feature was not active yet (this was a year ago and there have been a few versions since then so I assume they have this corrected now) My point was why give someone the false impression they are setting the pass depth if it doesnt work and not have a warning - it cost me a $100 router. If you also read my original post - the phone support wasn't very helpful - I'd already had been successfully using the program for two or three month - the first hour they read from a script. The second, separate session a week later was supposedly the technical guy - I had three very very specific issues I wanted to talk about - he totally ignored me - didn't understand a CNCRP machine at all - reset all my tooling libraries to 400 ips, despite telling him that wasn't going to work - changed my pass depth back to way too aggressive depths....on and on - and spent 75% of the time telling me I should pay for additional training ASAP - Yeah additional training to fix everything he'd fk'd up. Not bothering with melamine anyway - too brutal on bits and machine, and not fun to play with material anyway. For melamine we cut all on Holz-her panel saw and just use the CNCRP machine as a line borer and pocketing machine.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    39

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    Hi Major - I use mine for work - to supplement what we do in an already productive shop. For me the time building it and getting it running was a cost factor, hence the plug and play etc. If it was a hobby - maybe do a lot more from scratch. I play with model trains as a hobby and with that I'm building something that will probably never be complete complete - building it is the fun of the hobby... No pressure - go for it, but just also factor in that if you did hit a wall, with the CNCRP stuff - you have a friend in the north-west there to send an SOS to. Speakers you could still probably fit in a 4x4 machine. My machine takes up about 6x11 feet and that doesn't allow space to load the machine. I have one side completely open for loading, which happens to be right next to high pallet racks with shelves for each type of sheet material we use. The stuff we use most is at chest high level and easy to grab and swing onto the table. Front loading is completely possible but just think about material storage etc. Good luck with your build

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    33

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    I am getting ready to commit to the Mozaik software for the initial 3 month.. Would you guys share your post file for CNCRP? Reading this thread is making me second guess.. lol Or do you think they have this worked out now?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    39

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    I'm not sure if they worked it out or not. I wouldn't let this stop you from purchasing the program - once learned it has been valuable to us and cost effective. I'll see if I can find the post but from what I recall it has to do with the z numbers in the post they sent - might have been negative and needed to change to positive or something along those lines. Might have just been backwards. It isn't long so wasn't hard to spot

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm not sure if they worked it out or not. I wouldn't let this stop you from purchasing the program - once learned it has been valuable to us and cost effective. I'll see if I can find the post but from what I recall it has to do with the z numbers in the post they sent - might have been negative and needed to change to positive or something along those lines. Might have just been backwards. It isn't long so wasn't hard to spot

  11. #11

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    Using my 4896pro in a similar fashion. Rhino5, Rhinocam Pro and Mach3.
    Machine is used more for furniture making. A bit of flip milling, lots of profiling and some nonferrous machining.
    Didn't upgrade to linear bearing system yet. Waiting for CNCRP to come up with rotational axis kit so I can do both at the same time.

    Guys, hurry up with rotational 4th!!!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    18

    Re: ONE YEAR (or so) UPDATE ON PRO 4896

    Thanks Mussersail for all that wonderful user experience and all the general business info shared. I have had my PR04896 for over a year now and happy with it as well. I was probably one of the early linear bearing customer.

    Be Bliss.

Similar Threads

  1. new to me tech lc 4896 atc
    By 2fast4u66 in forum Techno CNC
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-20-2015, 12:41 AM
  2. 20 Year Old 4'x8' APD CNC Router Rebuild and Update
    By IdeasSquared in forum DIY CNC Router Table Machines
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-01-2015, 11:27 PM
  3. DLI 4896 (What is it worth)?
    By c.fehringer in forum DynaCNC
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-14-2012, 05:39 PM
  4. Please Help with Shopsabre 4896
    By awest486 in forum Shopsabre
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-05-2012, 07:34 AM
  5. Engraving with SS 4896... Help
    By Vanishingstar05 in forum Shopsabre
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-20-2011, 08:42 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •