[LeeWay]

They have many different options.
Vertical Machining Centers (VMC) | Haas Automation

[mountaindew]

They have many different options.
Vertical Machining Centers (VMC) | Haas Automation

I like their mini education model. $19k base model. 4k 3.4 hp spindle fast 2klb servo driven axis. This model must be new because 4 years ago I would have looked at this very close and I dont remember anything Haas sells for under $30k

Maybe Tormach showed them there is a market for smaller sub $20k machines. Noted in another thread about Haas lube system. I have dreaded way oil system from day 1 on my Tormach. What a mess that system makes and pollutes your cutting cooling fluid, Sealed grease ways are very nice .

[IMT]

You can build your own quote on the website. The only extra I added was rigid tapping. It's the only one I could not live without. It comes standard on most models, but not the MM.
That site price is what I got.
$34490.00 Less 5% discount.

$32765.50

Freight was $1500.00.

I may spring for the High speed machining on it. I have 200 try out hours in which I will be able to test it to see if it is justifiable for us.

Lee, I'm curious why you went with the mini mill instead of the TM-1P. Same price, same spindle, smaller travel 16" X vs 30" X. Slightly faster rapids 600 vs 400.

[C*H*U*D]

I like their mini education model. $19k base model. 4k 3.4 hp spindle fast 2klb servo driven axis. This model must be new because 4 years ago I would have looked at this very close and I dont remember anything Haas sells for under $30k

I thought this package price was available to educators only? HAAS lists it as "Educator Exclusive", but I don't see where they list the criteria for that.

[LeeWay]

Basically the machine is quite a bit larger and required a lot more space all the way around it. Slower rapids. Not a full overhead enclosure. Much more table than we actually need. Smaller coolant tank. If I was going to get one that size, it would need more Y travel and a higher spindle speed. Then we are looking at a VF1. With the Mini Mill instead, I left us some room to expand if we need some other machine in there. The Mini Mill also has less room inside, so makes clean up easier with it's included wash down hose. I am spoiled by that on the Pulsar. It was a must on this one too. I don't think they offer that on the TM models.

Now I thought about backing the TM1P up against the wall and cutting a doorway there to access the control panel. I didn't think about it for very long.

[LeeWay]

I thought this package price was available to educators only? HAAS lists it as "Educator Exclusive", but I don't see where they list the criteria for that.

By the time you add everything back to it, it is very close to the standard MM. Only a couple thou discount. I am sure they will ask for credentials at some point for those.
John Saunders teaches classes in Fusion 360 and machining, so he could get one I would think.

[rdsi]

I like their mini education model. $19k base model. 4k 3.4 hp spindle fast 2klb servo driven axis. This model must be new because 4 years ago I would have looked at this very close and I dont remember anything Haas sells for under $30k.

If your talking about this model MINIMILL-EDU I’m thinking this is the standard MiniMill at a discount for educational institutions only and not for us hobbyist or regular machine shops.

[LazyMan]

Cut a hole in the ceiling and get a "real" machine if money is not a big issue. I own an 1100 and VF-2SSYT, which is the absolute largest I can fit in my garage. I still use my Tormach for one off general tolerance parts especially plastic and I actually find it more convenient in most cases. Even if you make small parts, a larger cutting area can be a huge plus for a one man shop. I realized how significant this is on my first 100 piece part run. Standing at a machine loading and unloading parts every few mins all day opening and closing the door gets miserable very fast. A larger table lets you get more vises and parts on the table and you can walk away from the machine and do other tasks like watching TV or taking a nap . If you make smaller parts with smaller tooling particularly in plastic and aluminum, high RPM spindle is very important. However, I personally would stay away from the CM-1 unless you had a very specific need for it.

[CadRhino]

Nice post. Are you using 220 residential current with vid/phase converter to run your VF2?
Did you buy it new/used.
Is it a crap shoot when you buy it used?
I use my 4th axis quite a bit on my 1100 and a haas 4th costs like $13,000 installed.

Cut a hole in the ceiling and get a "real" machine if money is not a big issue. I own an 1100 and VF-2SSYT, which is the absolute largest I can fit in my garage. I still use my Tormach for one off general tolerance parts especially plastic and I actually find it more convenient in most cases. Even if you make small parts, a larger cutting area can be a huge plus for a one man shop. I realized how significant this is on my first 100 piece part run. Standing at a machine loading and unloading parts every few mins all day opening and closing the door gets miserable very fast. A larger table lets you get more vises and parts on the table and you can walk away from the machine and do other tasks like watching TV or taking a nap . If you make smaller parts with smaller tooling particularly in plastic and aluminum, high RPM spindle is very important. However, I personally would stay away from the CM-1 unless you had a very specific need for it.

[mountaindew]

If your talking about this model MINIMILL-EDU I’m thinking this is the standard MiniMill at a discount for educational institutions only and not for us hobbyist or regular machine shops.

That could be the case but a poor business model to design and make a product to sell to schools only!. If you can sell a product at a price point, then it should be available to anyone that can write a check for it. I see companies like Autodesk do this with Autocad software package and its crippled in certain ways also says not for commercial gain "teaching" The full product is a fixed price at 60x the edu version costs If Haas sells this to education institutes only then IMHO it should sell them at a education price $40K / 60 = $ 666.00

Another example If Ford sold trucks for 2x more because you hauled building materials to the job site, then if your purchased one to haul your kids mx bike to the track would be silly. In my case I would go buy trucks from dealers to haul my kids bike to the track and turn around and sell them to construction companies . Not hard to find a friend in low places like school districts In this area anyway to buy one of these units.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

That could be the case but a poor business model to design and make a product to sell to schools only!.

Tell that to Apple, and a whole lot of other companies. Apple GIVES computers to schools. Guess what brand the kids in those schools buy when they go computer shopping? Haas offers machine discounts to trade schools, and guess whose machines most trade schools use to train machinists? Then with all those Haas-trained machinists coming out of the trade schools, guess what machines a lot of the machine shops buy?

Regards,
Ray L.

[IMT]

Tell that to Apple, and a whole lot of other companies. Apple GIVES computers to schools. Guess what brand the kids in those schools buy when they go computer shopping? Haas offers machine discounts to trade schools, and guess whose machines most trade schools use to train machinists? Then with all those Haas-trained machinists coming out of the trade schools, guess what machines a lot of the machine shops buy?

Regards,
Ray L.

Exactly! And the educational price is about the same a fully outfitted Tormach or Novakon.
Autodesk seems to have figured out that this is a good approach with Fusion 360. Make it free to the next generation and those starting out. When they start using it to make money they will stick with what they know.

[LeeWay]

The EDU machine is fully stripped down and hog tied. Only half of the hyped HP of the MM. Not near the basic features of a standard Mini Mill. With the Tormach or Novakon, you at least get a tool changer for that price.
For those reasons, it really is only suited for training.

[Steve Seebold]

When I had my shop I had a Fadal 3016 and a Haas TM1.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have taken some of the money I got for my Fadal when I sold it, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Tormach, but the Haas was a way better machine. And it had a 10 station tool changer and a 5C 4th axis.

I have always said, Haas is an excellent machine. If you run them the way they are designed to be run, you cans beat them. If you're looking for a heavy steel cutting machine, the Haas is not the machine fou you.

[CadRhino]

Steve, it always like it when you say that the tormach can do whatever you haas did but it takes longer.

That being said, I am impressed with the tolerances you can hold with your tormach. Do you have any secrets to how you have been able to do this?

Did you do a lot of gib tightening/adjusting?

Did you lap your r8 collet so that it gets even bearing on the tools?

Do you have your spindle/tools marked to be inserted in the same location?

I guess not having an atc may allow for better accuracy since you can load tools in the same location every time.

Thanks
Nathan

When I had my shop I had a Fadal 3016 and a Haas TM1.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have taken some of the money I got for my Fadal when I sold it, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Tormach, but the Haas was a way better machine. And it had a 10 station tool changer and a 5C 4th axis.

I have always said, Haas is an excellent machine. If you run them the way they are designed to be run, you cans beat them. If you're looking for a heavy steel cutting machine, the Haas is not the machine fou you.

[LazyMan]

Nice post. Are you using 220 residential current with vid/phase converter to run your VF2?
Did you buy it new/used.
Is it a crap shoot when you buy it used?
I use my 4th axis quite a bit on my 1100 and a haas 4th costs like $13,000 installed.

I bought it new during one of the 10% off promos. I looked at prices of used machines and used haas machines were not all that much cheaper unless you got a much older machine. Unless you are experienced it can be too stressful because you never know if your buying a machine that's been crashed and has hidden issues. I wanted the latest tech with my machine and the greatest reliability possible. Service techs cost $130 and hour for repairs plus parts, when jobs are rolling through and my machine is down, that's a lot of money lost not to mention the stress I must suffer and a potentially unhappy customer. From a business standpoint, the Haas is cheap compared to having employees. I'm a one man shop and plan to grow my business with as few employees as possible because from my experience with an unrelated business, it's the most expensive and unreliable aspect of a business and I rather spend lots of money on machinery than hire people. With the Haas I can take in all kinds of work with confidence, and the 30x20in XY travel has greatly expanded the jobs I can run. Also, customers are more likely to do business with you if you have a "real" VMC.

I'm running a perfect phase digital phase converter on 220 residential power. Its expensive but provides the most balanced power possible and the much higher efficiency and reduced standby power consumption will save you money long term on your utility bill over a rotary.

My advise to anyone buying a Haas, BUY THE PROBE PACKAGE. The first time I had to locate a part from a bore and a boss, I was smiling like the joker from batman. Huge time savings are possible. If you got a tight tolerance on pocket depth on a bunch of parts but the blanks vary in thickness by a few thou you can have the probe come in and touch off the part every time for very accurate parts. Is your workstop in the way of your machining op? Not with the probe it isn't, no stop needed, the probe can come in and touch off your X each time. Then comes the tool setter. You can measure the actual diameter of your endmills, which make makes it much easier to make parts accurately the first time around. If you are running a long cycle, or critical parts unattended, you can detect broken tools before each tools change. Its a really great setup and I cant imagine not having it on my machine anymore.

With all that said I still love my Tormach except its slow spindle.

[CadRhino]

Wow, thank you for your insight.

Regarding your tormach, would you say it can pretty much do what the haas can (tolerances/repeatability) but at a much slower rate?

Glad to hear you are still using your tormach and congratulations on moving up to a 'real' vmc

I bet you are stoked

I bought it new during one of the 10% off promos. I looked at prices of used machines and used haas machines were not all that much cheaper unless you got a much older machine. Unless you are experienced it can be too stressful because you never know if your buying a machine that's been crashed and has hidden issues. I wanted the latest tech with my machine and the greatest reliability possible. Service techs cost $130 and hour for repairs plus parts, when jobs are rolling through and my machine is down, that's a lot of money lost not to mention the stress I must suffer and a potentially unhappy customer. From a business standpoint, the Haas is cheap compared to having employees. I'm a one man shop and plan to grow my business with as few employees as possible because from my experience with an unrelated business, it's the most expensive and unreliable aspect of a business and I rather spend lots of money on machinery than hire people. With the Haas I can take in all kinds of work with confidence, and the 30x20in XY travel has greatly expanded the jobs I can run. Also, customers are more likely to do business with you if you have a "real" VMC.

I'm running a perfect phase digital phase converter on 220 residential power. Its expensive but provides the most balanced power possible and the much higher efficiency and reduced standby power consumption will save you money long term on your utility bill over a rotary.

My advise to anyone buying a Haas, BUY THE PROBE PACKAGE. The first time I had to locate a part from a bore and a boss, I was smiling like the joker from batman. Huge time savings are possible. If you got a tight tolerance on pocket depth on a bunch of parts but the blanks vary in thickness by a few thou you can have the probe come in and touch off the part every time for very accurate parts. Is your workstop in the way of your machining op? Not with the probe it isn't, no stop needed, the probe can come in and touch off your X each time. Then comes the tool setter. You can measure the actual diameter of your endmills, which make makes it much easier to make parts accurately the first time around. If you are running a long cycle, or critical parts unattended, you can detect broken tools before each tools change. Its a really great setup and I cant imagine not having it on my machine anymore.

With all that said I still love my Tormach except its slow spindle.

[Steve Seebold]

Steve, it always like it when you say that the tormach can do whatever you haas did but it takes longer.

That being said, I am impressed with the tolerances you can hold with your tormach. Do you have any secrets to how you have been able to do this?

Did you do a lot of gib tightening/adjusting?

Did you lap your r8 collet so that it gets even bearing on the tools?

Do you have your spindle/tools marked to be inserted in the same location?

I guess not having an atc may allow for better accuracy since you can load tools in the same location every time.

Thanks
Nathan

The work I do on my machine now doesn't require extreme accuracy. I no longer take outside work that requires those tight tolerances any more.

I'll be 73 years old this October and I just don't want to work that hard any more.

From now on, I'm going to concentrate on making hardware for my remote control boats and trucks. And doing some RV traveling with my wife.

[mountaindew]

The EDU machine is fully stripped down and hog tied. Only half of the hyped HP of the MM. Not near the basic features of a standard Mini Mill. With the Tormach or Novakon, you at least get a tool changer for that price.
For those reasons, it really is only suited for training.

I dont agree!
I like to do very precise small things. The specs of that machine would fit me very well. Easy to list 2 dozen things I like about that machine. No way oil for one

Tell that to Apple, and a whole lot of other companies. Apple GIVES computers to schools. Guess what brand the kids in those schools buy when they go computer shopping? Haas offers machine discounts to trade schools, and guess whose machines most trade schools use to train machinists? Then with all those Haas-trained machinists coming out of the trade schools, guess what machines a lot of the machine shops buy?

Regards,
Ray L.

I agree

Only those kids need to change real fast. They dont use any apple equipment at the local Community college that teaches machine tool operation. Everything is Dell workstations running solidworks and master cam. Also the community college here has some very nice equipment in a very modern building with glass walls. I know the company I worked for remodeled it back in the 90's. Looks like they have a decent cnc cad,cam focused program there also "very little manual equipment" . Could buy a Haas mini mill for the cost of their 2 year program It is very cad cam intense program with most of your credit hours spent at workstation computers. Kurt Manufacturing has a plant about 4 miles from me built back in the 80's by one of our competitors. Last time I was in that building it had long lines of HAAS equipment. I would bet part of this college program was tailored and focused for that Kurt plant and a few other companies in this area.

[CadRhino]

Congratulations on being able to take it easy.

So, is that a yes or no on your tormach being capable of doing what your haas/fadal did but just at a slower speed?

Thanks

The work I do on my machine now doesn't require extreme accuracy. I no longer take outside work that requires those tight tolerances any more.

I'll be 73 years old this October and I just don't want to work that hard any more.

From now on, I'm going to concentrate on making hardware for my remote control boats and trucks. And doing some RV traveling with my wife.