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IndustryArena Forum > Other Machines > PCB milling > Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3
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  1. #1
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    Jan 2017
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    Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Hello here. I am trying to make a dobbelt sided pcb. But when i flip the board the other layer is misplaced. Attachments IMAG4040 and IAMG4014

    Its look fine in Coppercam. see Attachment pic1

    I tried to measure how much offset, compared to the bottom layer and top layer. and set the an offset i coppercam. see Attachment pic2
    But in mach3 the offset is lossed so I think I need to do something in Mach3.

    Have someone an idea what is wrong here?

    Best Regards
    Mads

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Hi, if it's just an out of position thing why don't you just move the board over the required amount?

    If you're using the same jig to locate the board for the other side then as the first side staring point is G coded at G54......the second side start position would be coded to G55 for the new start position.

    I may be wrong on that assumption as I'm quite new to CNC and G code but it seems the logical way to go.
    Ian.

  3. #3
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    Jan 2017
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    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Okay thanks for the Idea, yes the G54 is at the beginning of the G-Code but not when I have to flip the board. I will try to ad the G54 again when im starting to milling the other layer.

  4. #4
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    Jun 2005
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    1723

    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Mad,
    This is a pretty common issue when doing double sided PCB regardless of the various software tools I have tried. What I found works the best was to make sure you have 2-3 tooling pins in the master files. Then when you flip the board generate the gcode to re-drill the tooling holes. Just start the code and have it go to the first hole and see if it lines up. Many times it will be slightly off. You need to move to that spot, adjust so you can get the drill bit just fit in the hole using a mpg or whatever to move the drill. Then when it fits perfect key in that position into your DRO manually so it matches where the Gcode to the machine to go for that hole. Now you are ready to run the back side. This time you will find it aligns perfect. No clue what all these various tools seem to get this off. I have used Eagle for the PCB and PCBGCODE and run into this all the time. Doing what I outlined above seems to work for me. Your mileage might vary others might have other suggestions.

    Russ

  5. #5
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Quote Originally Posted by madshusted View Post
    Okay thanks for the Idea, yes the G54 is at the beginning of the G-Code but not when I have to flip the board. I will try to ad the G54 again when im starting to milling the other layer.
    Hi....the flipped side needs to have G55 as the new zero at the beginning of the second side coding for the new starting point once you've lined the second side up.
    Ian.

  6. #6
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    Jan 2017
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    7

    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Thanks for tje reply Russ. Okay so it seems that im not the only one here.
    Ian, I like the Idéa with the G55 end wil try that.

  7. #7
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    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    I give up. Now its out by 2mm, so are close. I will order my pcb online.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    142

    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Hi dear as i see in cooper cam in second picture the tracks are misplaced , they are about 2 mm right .

  9. #9
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Quote Originally Posted by madshusted View Post
    I give up. Now its out by 2mm, so are close. I will order my pcb online.
    Hi, you do need to have the second side layout design EXACTLY superimposed on an image of the first side layout when you compose it to make sure it's orientated exactly to the first side.......then when you flip the board you set the G55 to get to the second side start point.

    If the second side layout is not orientated EXACTLY to the first side the machine will follow the code from the start point.....wherever that may be misplaced......your holding jig also needs to be able to locate the board for both sides......EXACTLY.
    Ian.

  10. #10
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    Jan 2017
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    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Russ. I have now trid what you sad, but sure i did something worng, because it way off. I first drill the centerholes then the 0.8mm drill and last milling. No problem there. When I flip the board, I re-drill the centerholes at watched it was not at the same point at the last time. I made a new startting point and put the PCB back in, but it is so way off when I start milling.

    I don´t know what you mean when you sey put my new position into your DRO manually.

    You can see how off it is.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMAG4043.jpg  

  11. #11
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    Jun 2005
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    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Mad,
    Let me try to explain it a little clearer, sorry for any confusion. First you want to check the gcode files and make sure they both include a set of holes such as a couple tooling pin holes. Now go ahead and do one side of the board. Then you must determine in your software if you are required to flip your board Left > Right or Top to Bottom, each software package works uniquely. Now after you flip the board, go ahead and start the file and pause the machine as soon as it gets to the first hole to drill. Stop the spindle and carefully job the drill down to that hole you will probably note the drill will be slightly off from the previously drilled hole. Now before you move anything you need to look at the Gcode and make sure your DRO is currently reading where the position for the hole is in the Gcode. If so write that position down on a piece of paper, just the X and Y. Now you can stop the gcode and manually jog the machine slightly until the drill fits in the previously drilled hole perfect. Now you will note the DRO is not reading the position the hole is listed in the Gcode. For example: If the gcode had a line like G0 X4 Y5 for a given hole, after you have jogged the machine the DRO might read something like X=4.020, Y=5.000, now if you are running Mach3 or several other cnc control programs you can click on the DRO for the X axis and type in 4.00. Now the DRO is reading exactly what the Gcode is reading for that hole location. Now you have recalibrated the board being cut. Now restart the gcode to drill the 2nd side of the board as it approach the first hole pause the machine as it starts to go down. Now turn off the spindle again and jog it down and match sure it is aligned with the previously drill hole. If so you can restart the spindle and let the program run or you can restart the gcode again and it will cut the 2nd side of the board aligned with the first side of the board. Hope you followed this explanation.

    Russ

  12. #12
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    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Hi Russ, thanks for the explanation I will try that. However i'm using Mach3 and I can find the bottoms To DRO and Load DRO, I believe I have to use the bottom that says To DRO when I input the new reading. But I have a concerns, you like me to use the drill file again, but when I flip the board the drills are mirrored. I believe I have to make a drill file for the bottom layer thats are mirrored and for the top layer thats not are mirrored and follow your guide with that file?

    Mads

  13. #13
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    Jun 2005
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    1723

    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Mads,
    Not sure if CopperCAM flips the boards Left > Right or Top to Bottom, meaning vertically or horizontally. Normally you get two drill files and two etch files as Gcode output from most of the PCB programs. So you go in sequence.
    1) TOP DRILL
    2) TOP ETCH
    3) FLIP BOARD check software to determine which way it flips
    4) BOTTOM DRILL (note the same holes will be here but with different coordinates because the board has been flipped, so you have to experiment to figure out which ones. Normally the tooling pin holes are much bigger than via holes so they are pretty easy to spot in the gcode file.
    5) While you are playing with the bottom drill file is when you run the experiment I explained perviously. You want those tooling holes with the new coordinates to be exactly in the same place they are already drilled.
    6) Once the drill is fully aligned with the hole, you CLICK on the DRO which is off normally either the X or the Y depending on which way the board was flipped. When you click on that DRO you can type in a new number, which will override what was there. The number you are going to type in is the one in the Bottom Drill gcode file for that given tooling pin hole. Once you have done that you can run the bottom drill file or since it is really already all drilled you can go to the final step.
    7) Since the board is now fully aligned you run the BOTTOM ETCH gcode file.

    Does this help?

    Russ

  14. #14
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    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Yes Thanks Russ for you´re help, thats make it more easy for me. I have now made the PCB board :-)

    Many thanks

    Mads

  15. #15
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    Re: Help dobbelt sided pcb problem with coppercam/Mach3

    Glad that got you going.
    Russ



    Quote Originally Posted by madshusted View Post
    Yes Thanks Russ for you´re help, thats make it more easy for me. I have now made the PCB board :-)

    Many thanks

    Mads

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