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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    31

    Is Charter Oak still in business?

    I have emailed, and called multiple times, left call back number and have not been able to reach anyone.

    I am really interested in the 12z mill but can't seem to get in touch with anyone, can't buy one if no one is there.

    Guess I start looking for another mill to use, I really like the size and can't seem to find any other mill with the working envelope of the 12z in a manual machine.


    Still looking for the drawbar set up, but I found the same size mill with hardened ways from Precision Matthews.

    Let the conversion begin!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    5

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    I've called and emailed a few times as well with no response. I have recently purchased a NOS Industrial Hobbies which I believe was Charter Oaks predecessor. I had a few questions about the mill and was hoping they had some info. I guess they don't.... Lol

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    5717

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Precision Mathews is a very reputable vendor and very responsive to questions.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4553

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    See attached link, this model is very similar to the Charter Oak machine:

    http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-940m/
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Figorvonbuellin View Post
    I've called and emailed a few times as well with no response. I have recently purchased a NOS Industrial Hobbies which I believe was Charter Oaks predecessor. I had a few questions about the mill and was hoping they had some info. I guess they don't.... Lol
    I use to sell the 12z IH machine. I might be able to answer a few questions about it for you.
    [email protected]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    17

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Since Charter oak doesn't seem to be responding to either email or phone calls (mail box is full and not accepting messages), does anyone here know where I might find a copy of any documentation for the interconnections of the PC and the controller cabinet?
    I have found nothing online through any number of internet searches.

    I purchased a used mill but it came with absolutely no documentation at all and there are two unmarked parallel ports on the controller cabinet but a PC with Mach 3 loaded and only one parallel port.

    Not wanting to damage anything I was hoping to find out which port is which from the documentation.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4553

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Post good close up detailed images of the components in your control cabinet, someone here will be able to identify what they are and provide accurate information.

    Jeff...

    Quote Originally Posted by IHFan View Post
    Since Charter oak doesn't seem to be responding to either email or phone calls (mail box is full and not accepting messages), does anyone here know where I might find a copy of any documentation for the interconnections of the PC and the controller cabinet?
    I have found nothing online through any number of internet searches.

    I purchased a used mill but it came with absolutely no documentation at all and there are two unmarked parallel ports on the controller cabinet but a PC with Mach 3 loaded and only one parallel port.

    Not wanting to damage anything I was hoping to find out which port is which from the documentation.
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    17

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    Post good close up detailed images of the components in your control cabinet, someone here will be able to identify what they are and provide accurate information.

    Jeff...
    Jeff, thanks for the response.
    I will try to get some better pictures and post them but these are some that I took initially.
    C13 breakout boards on the rear panel of the controller cabinet.
    The wires from the one barely visible underneath go to the Gecko motor drivers.
    The wires from the one on top go only to the C11 multi function board.



    C11 Multi-function board and missing Smooth stepper board? The wires from the C11 go only to the breakout board on top in the previous picture.




    But, in looking a bit closer I think that I see maybe what he was doing but not quite certain why?

    There are two C13 breakout boards each with their respective DB-25 connectors on the back panel of the controller cabinet. That there were two is what initially threw me off. Since they are unlabeled I wasn't certain which to connect the single parallel port cable to. The PC also has only one parallel port.

    One has wires from its screw terminals going to the four Gecko motor drivers. That seemed to make sense.

    The other one has wires going to a C11 Multi-function board? That is what was confusing me.

    What I finally noticed was that there was another board that was apparently removed that is next to a C11 Multi-function board. There are just 4 screws sticking through the door of the cabinet next to the C11 DB-25 connector. This C11 has nothing connected to its DB-25 connector but it's outputs are connected to the terminal blocks of one of the C13 breakout boards and nowhere else.

    What I think was going on is that he had a Smooth Stepper board in there and somehow was using the C11 as an interface so that by disconnecting the parallel port cable from the PC and jumpering the two connectors on the controller cabinet with the parallel port cable he could switch from parallel port control to Smooth Stepper control?

    While that seems a somewhat elegant solution to keep everything contained and the cabinet sealed since the ribbon cable from the Smooth stepper wouldn't have to exit the cabinet, why was a C11 necessary??

    The Smooth Stepper parallel port could have simply been hard wired to the breakout board and have accomplished the same thing? Or perhaps I'm just missing something obvious.

    The PC has Mach3 loaded and does ask upon launch whether to use the parallel port or a USB Smooth Stepper further reinforcing my theory of just WTF is going on.

  9. #9

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    I'm looking at getting their fourth-axis CNC upgrade, will try contacting them via email tonight.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    17

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Quote Originally Posted by jetflatline View Post
    I'm looking at getting their fourth-axis CNC upgrade, will try contacting them via email tonight.
    Jet,

    Good luck,
    Perhaps I just didn't indicate that I wanted to spend enough money with them?
    If you do get in contact with them tell them to empty their voicemail box so people can leave a message and to answer the other emails that I sent?

    ETA: I just called them again and was able to leave a phone message. So perhaps they are just not good at handling phone calls/emails?

    If I ever get this thing up and running maybe I will be able to actually figure out how to use the 4th axis setup it came with?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    17

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Jeff,

    thanks for the help on the phone. I think that I have a much better understanding of the situation now and a plan of action.

    This is another picture that I'd taken since the others but hadn't posted yet.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4553

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    A simple solution to what you have now would be to completely remove both C13 BOB's and wire the C11 multifunction board to the existing Gecko drives, plug a parallel port cable from the C11 to your P.C. and start making chips. At a later date you can add something like a UC400ETH Ethernet Motion Controller and simply connect the UC400ETH to the parallel port feature connector on your existing C11.
    See attached link for UC400ETH details:
    https://cnc4pc.com/uc400eth-ethernet...troller-b.html

    A IDC26 to DB25 adapter will also be required.
    https://cnc4pc.com/idc26-db25-lph-26...bon-cable.html

    Jeff...


    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  13. #13

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    As soon as / if I hear back I'll post here. Charter Oak was very helpful in getting me parts missing from my IHCNC kit, so at least they are/were trying.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    17

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    A simple solution to what you have now would be to completely remove both C13 BOB's and wire the C11 multifunction board to the existing Gecko drives, plug a parallel port cable from the C11 to your P.C. and start making chips. At a later date you can add something like a UC400ETH Ethernet Motion Controller and simply connect the UC400ETH to the parallel port feature connector on your existing C11.
    See attached link for UC400ETH details:
    https://cnc4pc.com/uc400eth-ethernet...troller-b.html

    A IDC26 to DB25 adapter will also be required.
    https://cnc4pc.com/idc26-db25-lph-26...bon-cable.html

    Jeff...


    Jeff,
    Again thanks for your assistance. I have determined that this C11 board and associated wiring is not used at all for parallel port operation and I seem to have basic motion and can run some programs that he left on the machine. I'll remove it so clean things up.

    The work offsets were screwed up up but once I set them so the motion was within the limit switches they seemed to run OK with the Z axis set well above the table and no tools. The Z-axis needs some tuning work. It makes noise and likes to fault sometimes. So I'll drag out a scope and take a look.

    While this has a nice variable speed motor driver (TECO) and a two speed belt drive system, there is no way to actually control spindle speed and MACH complains about the RPM being zero and our of range for the selected pulley.

    Anyway this is another reason beyond cabling convenience to use an Ethernet interface to get me a second parallel port so that I can install and spindle index pulse for RPM measurement. All input lines are used for home/limit switches and the E-Stop button.
    It doesn't have the C3 board for the index pulse but I can add that easily enough and I found a reflective sensor that should work well with it and can me mounted above one of the pulleys.

    Never did hear back from Charter Oak.

    Mark

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4553

    Lightbulb Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Mark,

    Leaving the C13 boards and removing the C11 may not be your best option, the buffered step and direction output of the C11 may enhance the performance of your drives due to having five (5) volts driving the Gecko's versus a possible lower 3.3 volts or less passing through the C13 from your computer's parallel port. YMMV.

    Enjoy the journey,

    Jeff...
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    17

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Jeff,

    The C11 board is not connected to anything? The DB25 connector on the C13 board that wires to its input /output screw terminals has nothing connected to it.
    There is nothing connected to the DB25 connector on the C11 board.

    The DB25 connector of the other C13 board is connected to the PC parallel cable and is wired to the Gecko 320 motor drivers.

    Without the missing smooth stepper board it is not doing anything at all currently.

    Mark

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    Mark,

    Leaving the C13 boards and removing the C11 may not be your best option, the buffered step and direction output of the C11 may enhance the performance of your drives due to having five (5) volts driving the Gecko's versus a possible lower 3.3 volts or less passing through the C13 from your computer's parallel port. YMMV.

    Enjoy the journey,

    Jeff...

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4553

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Mark,

    Maybe re-reading my first suggestion will help.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    A simple solution to what you have now would be to completely remove both C13 BOB's and wire the C11 multifunction board to the existing Gecko drives, plug a parallel port cable from the C11 to your P.C. and start making chips. At a later date you can add something like a UC400ETH Ethernet Motion Controller and simply connect the UC400ETH to the parallel port feature connector on your existing C11.
    See attached link for UC400ETH details:
    https://cnc4pc.com/uc400eth-ethernet...troller-b.html

    A IDC26 to DB25 adapter will also be required.
    https://cnc4pc.com/idc26-db25-lph-26...bon-cable.html

    Jeff...


    Have a most awesome weekend!
    Jeff...
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    17

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Jeff,

    Well after having spent the past week or so on this I'm somewhat at a loss, and wondering if there is any fixing this mill? So much for "just making chips". :tired:

    There is some serious weirdness in X and Z. Interestingly Y acts pretty much normally.

    I see serious backlash. .005 or more in X .003 or so in Z ~.001 in Y

    The backlash is not symmetric. Some of the below weirdness I'm attributing to that.

    e.g. Program a move of .100 inch.
    Table sometimes moves a bit more, sometimes less. This is after a move that should remove any lash. Also, trying to approach the same point from the same direction after having passed it and then come back far enough to remove the lash [like a manual mill] does NOT return to the original starting point but can be off as much a .005?
    It's as if it has lost position somewhere but the controller doesn't notice the loss. These aren't stepper motors so it is hard to imagine how this happens with DC servo motors and encoders?

    If I use the axis calibration function to program this move of .100 and I accurately report the movement, it wants to add or subtract enough steps that any subsequent move causes the motors to fault. Set it back to 20000 exactly and no problem
    If I use a move of 1.000 then it wants to add or subtract 20-30 counts and then the step accuracy of small steps using the pendant are even less accurate and all over the place.

    Use either the Pendant or the Mach 3 screen equivalent to move .001 steps and depending on where you are in the table travel it may ignore as many as five steps (IOW, no movement of the motor shaft) and then may move less than .001 or several thousandths, or close to .001. It seems to depend somewhat on where it is in the table travel?

    I thought it was maybe the cheap dial indicator I was using.

    Repeat using a .0005 SPI and the results are the same.

    Having moved in a consistent direction for a quarter inch or so to approach the indicator with lash removed, touch off on the indicator and set the dial to zero. Move in .001 steps. First step .0015, next step .001, next step .0007, next step no movement, next step ends up at .0055.
    Move another .010 or so and then come back beyond the indicator a quarter inch or so and approach it again. Will not return to the original zero point. Always off by several thousandths.

    No, backlash compensation is not turned on. That makes the thing go completely ape**** when I run the Renishaw test. It was not turned on initially either.


    e.g. I tried setting G54 to the back vise jaw using a HAIMER 3D sensor. When I got close in X and then stepped in .001 increments, repeatedly at ~.005 away it ignored exactly the same three steps either using the pendant or the graphic interface!
    A couple more steps closer and when ~.0015 away, one more step and it moves .001 past the edge!

    I went round and round and then resorted to moving the GD vise slightly just to get something close to reasonable.
    Nothing repeatable mind you.
    Home the axes, move back to G54 with the HAIMER in place and axes are all over the map by thousandths.

    Z axis exhibits much the same behavior. It is difficult to imagine how there can be that much backlash in Z since the weight of the head should be keeping the ball screw loaded at all times.

    I've tried loosening the gibs completely, tightening the gibs, no difference in any of the axes behavior.

    Tool offsets are all over the map and completely non-repeatable (off as much as .002-.003) using a tool setter.

    I thought it might have been the dirty encoder signals identified as a culprit in other threads about DC servo motors losing position. But I looked at the encoder signals. Perfect. If there was an issue then the capacitor and pull up resistor fix indicated for the 320X drivers are in place.


    I thought it might have been bad motor tuning.

    I've spent hours working on tuning with various programs to get the test point to look similar to the pictures that show what properly tuned motors should look like. Y & Z look mostly like that. X is much noisier but not in the way that lack of dampening or excess gain implies.

    I created a modified version of the Renishaw program that just runs the table around in a .500 circle continuously and there is some definite bad mechanical sounds in X. Probably the backlash as the motor changes direction. Prior to spending time tuning things it sounded like the mill was going to vibrate itself off the stand to do that circular motion.

    Renishaw test results suck as one would expect with the above strangeness. I understand that there is nothing to be done about the lack of squareness,




    I don't know what the previous owner was making but it couldn't have required much in the way of precision. I'm beginning to see why this mill was for sale.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1041

    Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    I would leave the electronics alone for now and look at the machines mechanical components instead. Check everything for good lubrication. Unhook your motors and turn the screws by hand thru the travels. Check all pulley setscrews. Check your bearings for end play and adjust or replace as needed. If you perform your measurements tests by hand do the problems still exist?

    Ben

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4553

    Post Re: Is Charter Oak still in business?

    Mark,

    I totally agree with Ben, Isolating any mechanical issues first may keep you from chasing gremlins.

    Remember to maintain logic and change or adjust only one variable at a time then test and repeat process.

    Jeff...
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

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