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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    4

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Thanks for that image of your analog driver boards - I think I have three different types of driver board in my machine, one GA4568EA? amp that looks like yours, one of the AMP-0015 AMC amps and two of some older GA4568SE-1 ?? type amp boards, so quite the mix-match. But at least all the of the Glentek boards look very similar as far as potentiometer locations and I can probably figure out the correct feed points. I can probably use the AMP-0015 as the 4th axis amp(maybe that's the location its already in) - I don't have a 4th axis mechanism at this time. I also do not have the machine here yet to check the part numbers, just some pictures taken a month ago..

    Yeah I agree MACH3 is not an option at all, I used it on a sherline mini mill via parallel port awhile ago and it was not reliable - and the dedicated hardware for motion separate from the PC is what brought me to the Kflop originally.

    I wonder if Kflop 2.0 is in the works anytime soon.. The main processor on the board is at end of life by TI (unless its been upgraded from the one listed in the manual) and the board is about 10 years old I think?

    Those intake parts look awesome! Video of something like that being machined on your 4th axis would be cool to see. Maybe a timelapse?

    Do you have any type of probing on the machine?

    I think I am going to at least try the CNC88 control now - I have learned I don't have to buy anything to run it via the serial port at 9600 baud as it should work with a USB to serial converters I already have. And found out about the free NClink software to send it files. But when something breaks(just a matter of time) or I feel the existing control is limiting me I am pretty sure this is the best option. Nearest other option is $8k for Calmotion - Kflop is possibly better than the Calmotion once its done, Kflop is more labor to setup than Calmotion, but much less $ - but I really don't have any experience with either to make a direct comparison.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    127

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Better late than never reply, I suppose, but this is my old machine, and I did that first retrofit! You're at least the fourth owner, as I had to sell it to another guy when I moved into a workshop without a solid enough floor. It's a shame, because I'd have loved to had the time to fully mod it as you've done. We retrofitted a bridge router with linear motors for that new place, so it's not all regrets . There's a bunch of functionality in KMotionCNC that got added in because of that machine and working together with Tom on features we needed.

    Anyway, here's some answers to the mysteries:
    1- I was running a job shop with that as my only machine when we retrofitted it, so you are correct that the second I had it cutting parts I was back to work. I was also younger and less detail oriented in my work and there was basically no information online in 2010. The programmability of the KFLOP (and Tom) was really important to being able to hack together a solution, at the time the only other solutions I could find were building something in Mach3 (haha), LinuxCNC, custom code with Galil boards, or something like a Centroid retro where prices started at 20K US. The KFLOP was a total game changer, and in a lot of ways it still has no peers.

    2- The drives had a circuit which blended the tachometer output with the control input and did some sort of differential foolery to make them work. If you left the tachs in, then you could run them in velocity mode with a +/- 5V input. But as soon as you took the tachs out of the circuit it was a mess. We were originally working with Tom on maybe implementing some sort of tachometer emulation using the encoders and the Kanalog, but decided to trace the boards and see if we could get around it entirely. Messing with an undocumented way of driving an undocumented servo drive as the first person doing such a retrofit was...tense...but it was really awesome once we got it going! It was originally resolvers and tachometers. Every tech I talked to insisted there was no way to reuse the motors and drives, which of course sounded like a personal challenge.

    3- The performance compared to stock is 100% worth the retrofit. Stock acceleration was about 30-50ips^2, we got it up to something around 10X that. That meant on a 6" wide part with an oscillating finish pass at 125IPM you were basically halving your cycle time. At 200IPM the difference is 4X. The machine stock also had feed rates capped at 375IPM and the following error was not great over 200-250. Rapids were at max 600IPM default 400IPM I think, but the machine would need to run over a lot of distance to ever reach that velocity. I machined at 400-600IPM routinely post retro. The difference in finish with the tracking we could pull using the encoders was also night and day. It was twice the machine post retrofit, and capable of much higher quality. 1994 was a year where they were transitioning from inch ballscrews (which were small) to metric ballscrews (which were big) and so the metric machines were much better mechanically. You won't be able to get the same performance out of one of the inch machines. I think they changed from the DC motors to AC motors in 1998.

    4- Those inserts in the table are the same pattern they use at Taylor guitars to mount their tooling. I originally got the machine rebuilt by the guy who used to run their machining department, and he did the same mods they do to their machines as I was planning to build guitars with it. That included the table inserts drilled, the door interlock removal, the air blast in place of flood coolant, and the dust extraction ports in the base of the machine. The air was mainly so I could use air turbine spindles as I did a lot of micro work and needed the 65-90K RPM.

    5- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOfzLbodL_8 There's a vid of its former life, at the resolution of the day.

    6- That double-crescent dent in the middle of the table is from my first day with the machine (which was my first day ever touching a mill). I got it shipped from San Diego to Halifax, NS and basically had to learn everything alone. Accidentally dropped a pristine 1" carbide ball out of the spindle. My machining education didn't come cheap!

    Those Fadals are really great machines to work on, and they lost a lot of resale value when the company shut down and changed hands a few years back. If you've got the space, a retrofitted 4020 is about the best value you can get per dollar in a mill.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    7

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Really awesome work overall guys!

    Just scooped up a 1992 Fadal 4020 myself. X and Y axis were rebuilt 2 years ago I am told. Replaced the spindle belts and it seems to all function as it should. However, I am running a Kflop board on my (in process) 5-axis router and I like it for the reasons mentioned in previous posts. Getting back to the Fadal, I have the DC drives and from the text, the smaller inch ball screws. I need to verify I have the same drives as listed but maybe doesn't matter?? As in the torque bypass mod would work on both types?

    I am heavily debating just going Kflop+Kanalog+Konnect+KmotionCNC right out of the gate. Like the shopping cart is full and one click away. What encoders did you use on this machine? Happen to have a P/N handy? Would like to get a complete cost picture before pulling the trigger on the more expensive items.

    I have baud rate issues a lot with my 95' Hitachi Seiki VM40H. Especially doing detailed plastic work. 2 hr toolpath taking 4-6 hours, oofta. Swapping over the Fadal with the resources on this post would give me what I need to tackle the VM40 down the road.

    Thanks guys!

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    7

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    I learned how to use search. Go me. Here is the encoder used on the Draask/Mcmurray 4020: Teledyne Gurley Encoder With 10 Pin Connector 8225-6000-dqsd

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    127

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by BattyZ View Post
    I learned how to use search. Go me. Here is the encoder used on the Draask/Mcmurray 4020: Teledyne Gurley Encoder With 10 Pin Connector 8225-6000-dqsd
    I wouldn't modify the drives unless you're very comfortable with electronics, I had help from a friend who's quite skilled. The original reason I did it was to cut the tachs out of the circuit, as I had a tach that was a bit off and it gave me velocity wobble. Just by accident that we figured out the rest. Tuning the drives as modified is -very- tricky - the drives already work on +/- 5V but when tuned this way you've got something less than +/- 1V to work with...I think maybe +/- 0.5V but I don't recall. It only works because the KFLOP has such a high refresh rate that it can operate something even at that low resolution. Also, Glentek will 100% tell you nothing about any drives they ever made for anyone so you're on your own re: any specs of the drive.

    The encoders I found on eBay, and they were awesome and super durable (pretty sure they were military in origin) but I don't think Teledyne has existed for probably 20 years so might be hard to find replacements. In the mean time, encoders have become much cheaper and higher quality, so I don't think you'll have a hard time finding replacements. Look on eBay, there's always stuff on there that's decent. They probably have decent encoders on AliExpress now, too - you can definitely get decent linear encoders on there.

    You'll run into the same baud rate issues with the Fadal, though you can mostly get around them if you're careful in how your code is filtered. On the other hand, that control absolutely can't run the machine accurately at the speeds the KFLOP can. A KFLOP can run a Fadal at 400IPM as smoothly as the built in controller can at 50IPM.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    537

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by BattyZ View Post
    I learned how to use search. Go me. Here is the encoder used on the Draask/Mcmurray 4020: Teledyne Gurley Encoder With 10 Pin Connector 8225-6000-dqsd
    I think thats right. I wouldn't really recommend these encoders for a couple of reasons.

    First reason is they have no index. Fadal did not use proper home switches, they just did a cold start procedure that searched for index line of the encoder. You cant do this with these encoders. And adding home switches is little bit of a pain. honestly im still just using a program to "park" the machine at the cold start position at the end of the day. Its working, but its a terrible practice. Someday i need to do proper home switches, even with proper home switches its still nice to have the index signal for accuracy.

    Second is the number of counts is a little too high. Kflop has a maximum input frequency of 1mhz I think, and at rapid speed on my machine im actually cheating this a little bit 1.25mhz. This is working fine for me, but does make me little nervous sometimes. This will be huge limitation if you have the inch ball screws. You will need lower resoloution encoders or just have to live with much slower rapids.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    127

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    I think thats right. I wouldn't really recommend these encoders for a couple of reasons.

    First reason is they have no index. Fadal did not use proper home switches...its still nice to have the index signal for accuracy.

    Second is the number of counts is a little too high.
    Those are good points.

    I had a UPS (uninterruptable power supply) that powered the KFLOP and encoders so that I'd never have to turn it off. Also a hackey solution, but I never lost position!

    The actual count rate limit is 1.42MHz but the spec is lower to give some buffer. I did talk to Tom about the encoder frequency limit for another machine, and it can be raised possibly as high as 16MHz with some custom code if you're a daredevil. I never got around to implementing it because it wasn't an issue on the Fadal. I might look into it now - my micro machining mill has nanometer-level linear encoders and it can only hit 60IPM.

    All that said, those inch screws are a lot smaller, so the machine probably wouldn't be thrilled if you were rapiding it at 800IPM or doing the sort of accelerations mmurray's Fadal is set at.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1041

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Hi mmurray70
    I have been trying to download your c programs but can't seem to get it to come through. Would it be possible for you to post a screenshot of your toolchange program. I really only need to see the section that shows how you block it from changing tools if the current tool matches the tool being called. My program works great I just need it to stop dropping off and picking up the same tool when it already has the correct tool.

    Thank you
    Ben

    Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1041

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    I have finally gotten the files to download so please scratch that last post. Thanks

    Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    This machine uses DC servos and the original motors and drives are being controlled by Kanalog. The original motors had tachometers and resolvers and velocity mode servo drives. The previous owner removed the Tachs and resolvers, added encoders and modified the drives to operate in torque mode with Kanalog controlling them. Looks like he bypassed the velocity loop and soldered signal wire directly into a specific point in the amplifier farther down the line. This is working well, no issues with motors or drives so far.

    When i got the machine I cleaned up alot of the wiring and traced nearly every wire in the machine and got rid of anything not needed. Nothing at all worked in the original control box on the front of the machine so i stripped that and added a LCD display, keyboard, buttons and overrides and an MPG so this machine could be operated like a normal VMC instead of fiddling with a laptop. I had to add a Konnect board to get the number of inputs and outputs i needed.
    hi
    Please, if possible, send a picture of the signal wire on the amplifier
    picture of (bypassed the velocity loop and soldered signal wire directly into a specific point in the amplifier farther down the line)

    thx

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    7

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Well, I have been running with the stock CNC88 controller since that first post of mine on this thread. I get along but the baud rate is killing me on thread milling and surfacing. I have just had a resolver go out on my X axis so this has got me back on the Kflop train.

    I looked and I do have the inch ball screws...What kind of speeds would be reasonable post-retrofit? I am not opposed to eventually getting metric ball screws. Still, the retrofit is more about removing baud rate restrictions, accelerations, some probe work/tool setting, and running semi 'lights out.' I have wifi switches on my VM40H mill that allow me to set up a job and kill it remotely. Kflop running a C program could handle this well and report back to our automation server if successful or timed out.

    Another question: Use the Glentek servo drives or try to integrate a DC servo amp? The SnapAmp (Dynomotion) and G320X (Gecko) would be fantastic solutions but only drive up to 80V when 160V (7amp) is what the Glenteks run. I would like to get away from Glentek. Like any other Fadal owner?? But, throwing 3 1.5KW AC servos & drives really ups the ante. Thoughts?

    Also, I see people upgrading the axis shaft couplers from the lovejoys up to disc couplers or the like. Something I should look into?

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4043

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Another question: Use the Glentek servo drives or try to integrate a DC servo amp? The SnapAmp (Dynomotion) and G320X (Gecko) would be fantastic solutions but only drive up to 80V when 160V (7amp) is what the Glenteks run.
    It's hard to say if the 160V is needed, Do you have the motor spec? If not you might run a test. The speed of a DC motor is basically proportional to Voltage under light load. So you might apply some voltage to the motor like 24V and measure the speed. An 80V supply should be able to drive the motor ~3X that speed. If you can move the machine you might move at some speed and measure the motor voltage with a voltmeter, Then calculate the top speed as the Test Speed * 70/ / Measured Voltage.

    HTH
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    7

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Thanks for the quick response Tom!

    Motor: GM4050
    660 in/oz Cur-A:12.8 (Assuming this is max current)
    Ohms: .6 Ind: 4.4 MH
    RPM:2400

    Those tests you laid out would be a proper way to get a good feeling. I may do them but plans changed for me a bit...

    The Fadal parts I bought to rebuild the X-axis electricals are getting returned. A KFLOP, KANALOG, and KONNECT board are on their way!

    For the servo drives, I have 3 Copley ACM-180-20 coming. 10 amp continuous, 20 amp peak. Big heat sinks and fans on these; hence my earlier assumption on 12.8 A being the max motor current. (The plan is to sell all the old drives/boards.) If the Copley drives don't work out will take a hard look at SnapAmp. These drives also mention auto-tuning capability which would be wild.

    Encoders: Omron E6B2-CWZ1X 2000P/R. Should be good for the application? These do have a Z index pulse so might be able to bring back the 'cold start' until limit switches are put in place.

    I will start a build thread over on the dynomotion forum.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    7

    Re: My Fadal 4020 Kflop Retrofit

    Drassk/Mmurray70:

    If you guys add any extra info on how you went about tuning the servos, I'd be all ears. Some options for other servo drives are on their way(to me) but would also like to be able to successfully modify the Glentek drives. Thanks!

    Link to my fadal retrofit:

    https://www.dynomotion.com/forum/vie...hp?f=16&t=1724

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