[StarApple]

I wish to start a training course for the less fortunate over here and maybe set them up in a livelihood program here in The Philippines.

I am planning on building the machine myself and cut down the costs (option 1) as our charity only has a small budget for this. We mainly deal with malnutrition and housing for indigents.

I am hoping to cut the costs, because we are a registered charity. Windows 10 Pro is only 10 dollars from MS through TechSoup, Fusion 360 is free to us also, as is most software. We have been offered some discounts on hardware in the past week. If anybody else here knows companies that are helpful to non-profits, please let me know.

At the moment am just reading threads here and learning Fusion 360. The CAD end I find easy as I have used CAD before. CAM is a different story, so I will have to read up and study that a bit.

Any advice is most welcome. Whether to go with Mach 3/4 or the new Acorn. I presume most of you will say to buy Gecko drivers (expensive but good?).

I will not name our Foundation here for fear of facing the wrath of the moderators, but we are fully registered and all our board are volunteers.

P

[ger21]

Any advice is most welcome. Whether to go with Mach 3/4 or the new Acorn. I presume most of you will say to buy Gecko drivers (expensive but good?).

I'd recommend UCCNC. over Mach3/4.
Most people tend to prefer Leadshine digital drives to Gecko these days.

[louieatienza]

As a guy of Filipino descent, this is great! The nice things about Mach3 is that it's cheaper, you can run multiple copies of a license for non-commercial use (which would be beneficial for a classroom setting), and it's easily used on a lowly first-gen P4 running XP - meaning the computers can be a free or very cheap.

Geckos are as bullet-proof as you can get, and Marriss is a stand-up guy. That said, for the money, Leadshine's drives (especially the DM, EM, and AM series) are great deals, as Gerry mentioned.

[OlfCNC]

Mach3 is now considered an end of life product and Mach4 is incomplete.
Parallel ports are extinct, no more available on new computers.
I would not teach an end of life product based on obsolete technology.

You can install the demo UCCNC without any license keys.
With the UC100 controller it is 80 EUR + the license cost which is 55 EUR.
I don't know if they have any educational discounts, IMO it worth a question to the developers though.

Or you could go with linuxcnc then you do not even have to purchase windows and only the PC is needed, but then you also have to teach the usage of linux to the students and they are probably already familiar with windows.
And BTW, OEM PC manufacturers might be able to offer Windows 10 Home for free, because Microsoft is offering it for free to OEM computer manufacturers so they can install it free on the computers they make and sell.

[bostosh]

Start them off with addition of positive and negative numbers and Cartesian coordinates on a blackboard, plot points on graph paper. no machine, no electricity, no batteries needed, no software, no licenses, just need paper, pencils and chalk
Yes i am old school.
Our schools had windows to stare out of when bored.

[louieatienza]

Mach3 is now considered an end of life product and Mach4 is incomplete.
Parallel ports are extinct, no more available on new computers.
I would not teach an end of life product based on obsolete technology.

You can install the demo UCCNC without any license keys.
With the UC100 controller it is 80 EUR + the license cost which is 55 EUR.
I don't know if they have any educational discounts, IMO it worth a question to the developers though.

Or you could go with linuxcnc then you do not even have to purchase windows and only the PC is needed, but then you also have to teach the usage of linux to the students and they are probably already familiar with windows.
And BTW, OEM PC manufacturers might be able to offer Windows 10 Home for free, because Microsoft is offering it for free to OEM computer manufacturers so they can install it free on the computers they make and sell.

The concepts in Mach3 are not antiquated. I still run a couple machines with it, with absolutely no issues. Maybe in Sweden and other modern countries, parallel ports are extinct. Knowing where my family came from, "dirt poor" is a literal term. G-code will not become obsolete, and anything from the newest VMC to the lowly Mach3 reads it just fine. I have Mach3 running machines on a laptop with WinXP, an Intel NUC running Win10 and SmoothStepper, and yet another on a Win7 machine, all repurposed computers.

The thing with the Mach3 license is that if more machines are needed at the school, another computer can run it without having to purchase another license or USB device.

I'd agree that LinuxCNC would be another option. I haven't followed its progress, but previous versions could have problems with some PC configurations. Running Win10 would preclude that you use a USB option. There are a lot of internet cafes in the Philippines, and I'd bet you can get a couple PCs inexpensively, that would work fine. Then you can save for better PCs for the CAD/CAM stuff.

Another option, for the machine control, if you can run your steppers at 24V and less than 2.4A, is one of the boards designed for 3D printers. There are a couple that have Trinamic stepper drives built in, and they're pretty capable drives at that.

[StarApple]

Wow. So many replies. I was not expecting that.
i will reply to them one by one. Thank you.

[StarApple]

I'd recommend UCCNC. over Mach3/4.
Most people tend to prefer Leadshine digital drives to Gecko these days.

Hi Gerry (my fathers name)
Thank you for these two pointers. I will research them both today or tomorrow.

Pascal

[StarApple]

The concepts in Mach3 are not antiquated. I still run a couple machines with it, with absolutely no issues. Maybe in Sweden and other modern countries, parallel ports are extinct. Knowing where my family came from, "dirt poor" is a literal term. G-code will not become obsolete, and anything from the newest VMC to the lowly Mach3 reads it just fine. I have Mach3 running machines on a laptop with WinXP, an Intel NUC running Win10 and SmoothStepper, and yet another on a Win7 machine, all repurposed computers.

The thing with the Mach3 license is that if more machines are needed at the school, another computer can run it without having to purchase another license or USB device.

I'd agree that LinuxCNC would be another option. I haven't followed its progress, but previous versions could have problems with some PC configurations. Running Win10 would preclude that you use a USB option. There are a lot of internet cafes in the Philippines, and I'd bet you can get a couple PCs inexpensively, that would work fine. Then you can save for better PCs for the CAD/CAM stuff.

Another option, for the machine control, if you can run your steppers at 24V and less than 2.4A, is one of the boards designed for 3D printers. There are a couple that have Trinamic stepper drives built in, and they're pretty capable drives at that.

Thank you Louie. Am I right in thinking that Mack 3 can also be run over an Ethernet LAN cable via a smooth stepper card (ESS). As I can put together a couple of WIN 10 capable machine very cheaply and I have 5 spare WIN 10 Pro Licences, I might go that route. I will be starting very small. Teach some CAD first. But to make it interesting, it would be great if the students could make something physical as early as possible, in order to keep the interest.

[ger21]

The thing with the Mach3 license is that if more machines are needed at the school, another computer can run it without having to purchase another license

A Mach3 license is for one USER. Installing it on multiple PC's for multiple users is a violation of the license agreement.

UCCNC can also be run over ethernet with their UC300ETH and UC400ETH motion controllers, and is a lot cheaper than Mach3 and an ESS. It's also better.

[louieatienza]

A Mach3 license is for one USER. Installing it on multiple PC's for multiple users is a violation of the license agreement.

UCCNC can also be run over ethernet with their UC300ETH and UC400ETH motion controllers, and is a lot cheaper than Mach3 and an ESS. It's also better.

I haven't read the manual in a long while, but the website states:

"Non-commercial users (aka hobbyists) are permitted to use one Mach license for as many machines as they require."

Really, though, like the other stuff, it can be run in demo mode on any computer for learning purposes, and, as long as the g-code is 500 lines or less you can actually use it to output to a machine without the license. Plus this is a not-for-profit classroom, not a factory.

[louieatienza]

Thank you Louie. Am I right in thinking that Mack 3 can also be run over an Ethernet LAN cable via a smooth stepper card (ESS). As I can put together a couple of WIN 10 capable machine very cheaply and I have 5 spare WIN 10 Pro Licences, I might go that route. I will be starting very small. Teach some CAD first. But to make it interesting, it would be great if the students could make something physical as early as possible, in order to keep the interest.

Yes... And yes - nothing makes a kid go WOW like taking basically some lines of text and using it to make a machine move!

[StarApple]

As a guy of Filipino descent, this is great! The nice things about Mach3 is that it's cheaper, you can run multiple copies of a license for non-commercial use (which would be beneficial for a classroom setting), and it's easily used on a lowly first-gen P4 running XP - meaning the computers can be a free or very cheap.

Geckos are as bullet-proof as you can get, and Marriss is a stand-up guy. That said, for the money, Leadshine's drives (especially the DM, EM, and AM series) are great deals, as Gerry mentioned.

Wow that is good to hear. Means you probably understand real poverty better than most. What do you mean by: 'Marriss is a stand-up guy'?

[StarApple]

Mach3 is now considered an end of life product and Mach4 is incomplete.
Parallel ports are extinct, no more available on new computers.
I would not teach an end of life product based on obsolete technology.

You can install the demo UCCNC without any license keys.
With the UC100 controller it is 80 EUR + the license cost which is 55 EUR.
I don't know if they have any educational discounts, IMO it worth a question to the developers though.

Or you could go with linuxcnc then you do not even have to purchase windows and only the PC is needed, but then you also have to teach the usage of linux to the students and they are probably already familiar with windows.
And BTW, OEM PC manufacturers might be able to offer Windows 10 Home for free, because Microsoft is offering it for free to OEM computer manufacturers so they can install it free on the computers they make and sell.

Thank you for your post. That was what I was think regarding Mach 3/4 also. So many complaints about 4, which is one licence per computer, for a basically beta software, from what I hear. I will look into UCCNC this week. Regarding windows 10 pro, I have 5 unused licences left. They cost us only 10 dollars each through Techsoup because we are a charity.

[StarApple]

Start them off with addition of positive and negative numbers and Cartesian coordinates on a blackboard, plot points on graph paper. no machine, no electricity, no batteries needed, no software, no licenses, just need paper, pencils and chalk
Yes i am old school.
Our schools had windows to stare out of when bored.

Somehow or another, I do not think I could keep the interest high if they only have pencil and paper.

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

We are a non-profit setup here in Sydney Aust. I am a former College teacher of CNC, and use CAMBAM here for doing 2D geometry and setting up cutting conditions. CAMBAM were extremely good to us and donated an educational license at no cost. I'd ask them if they think you are eligible. It is a good product, fully supported and still evolving.

I send the G-code to Mach 3, which is of course a machine controller. It might have been around a long time, but it is mature and simple. You can get around the need for a parallel port quite easily. However for more rigorous work in 3D you might benefit from a more sophisticated controller.

I have attached some Powerpoint slideshows I use to train my colleagues here in CNC. They might prove useful at some stage. They are copyright free.

Cheers

[StarApple]

Hi,

We are a non-profit setup here in Sydney Aust. I am a former College teacher of CNC, and use CAMBAM here for doing 2D geometry and setting up cutting conditions. CAMBAM were extremely good to us and donated an educational license at no cost. I'd ask them if they think you are eligible. It is a good product, fully supported and still evolving.

I send the G-code to Mach 3, which is of course a machine controller. It might have been around a long time, but it is mature and simple. You can get around the need for a parallel port quite easily. However for more rigorous work in 3D you might benefit from a more sophisticated controller.

I have attached some Powerpoint slideshows I use to train my colleagues here in CNC. They might prove useful at some stage. They are copyright free.

Cheers

Thank you Geoff. I will look into that CAMBAM later. Thank you so much for the slideshows which I have just downloaded.

[ger21]

"Non-commercial users (aka hobbyists) are permitted to use one Mach license for as many machines as they require."

Yes, as many machines as you have, but the license is for one person. At least that's the intent.

[wizard]

Somehow or another, I do not think I could keep the interest high if they only have pencil and paper.

Well class room study is always a challenge, however im a strong believer in the basics and understanding what is going on under the hood so to speak. In most cases that doesn't have to be in-depth knowledge and frankly these days that stuff can be taught on a computer just as well as pencil and paper.

What im trying to get at is that you want students to leave your program with more than superficial knowledge of CAD/CAM. Also CNC technologies are not just for the machining industries, understanding CNC technology is an allied field of CAD/CAM. CNC controllers can be used for all sorts of things that aren't metal removal related. The better their understanding of the underlying tech the more jobs that will be open to them as students.

Beyond that you can benefit greatly in this field by being able to do simple math in your head or at least be able to leverage a calculator quickly. This is mostly an issue of practice but math needs to be part of the program at least up to trigonometry. Now obviously CAD/CAM significantly changes how and where you would need to do math manually. However even in a CNC shop you can get involved in manual layouts and maybe more so in a fabrication shop. To put it another way, ones opportunities are extremely limited without the basic math skills required by the craft.

So yeah classes that might seem to be boring are very important.

[wizard]

A few more thoughts:

All the discussion about which machine controller to use is meaningless as you will have students moving into industry having to adapt to many different controllers. In an ideal world you will have more than one machine setup each with a different controller. In a resource limited educational environment this means small machines to maintain cost effectiveness. So discussions about Mach 3, UCCNC, Centroids Acorn, LinuxCNC, GRBL and others should be about spreading out the experience for the student. In some cases you may be able to get multiple versions of the software running on the same computer / machine switching (rebooting) between versions as you go.

Now all of that being said id lean towards the LinuxCNC solution first as that behave very close to a FANUC solution. Plus LinuxCNC has no licensing fees at all. The other possibility here is GRBL which is a far more limited solution but does aim to track LinuxCNC's behavior. These options gets you started with quality solutions without software license fees.

At some point in the future i would want to see a machine built with Centroids Acorn as a representative commercial solution. The other option here would be to pick up a FANUC, Siemens or similar controller to build a machine with a commercial solution. If you can establish a program that has a good track record getting such a controller at a huge discount or even donated completely becomes possible. Long term this should be a priority because exposure to some of the hardware students will see on the job is very important. You might even find a complete machine being donated to the cause if you develop a strong enough program.

In the same vain you will want to expose students to a variety CAD/CAM software. Finding good free solutions though is a bit more difficult but donations and discounts might be possible. There are so many commercial options here that you will never cover them all so try to focus on at least two CAM solutions. For a sorta free CAD solution, one good solution is DraftSight which seems to work well on multiple platforms. Almost every other "free" CAD programs I've found has had serious issues which may make them into a problem for education.

If you are going to be teaching CAD/CAM, do not ignore additive manufacturing. That is 3D printing. You obviously wont be installing a machine capable of doing metals but a reprap type machine is good for educational use. The reason i mention this is due to the rapid acceptance of 3D printing in industry. Im seeing it used for jigs and fixtures and inspection solutions where complexity and low volumes make very cost effective even in steels. This does bring up the need for a solids modeling program very early in the educational cycle. In the CAD space this means covering 2 and 3D Drafting all the way up to solid modeling. You may need to partition your program up into semesters to cover everything rationally.

Note you titled this thread about teaching CAD/CAM to students but then spent a lot of time focused on the CNC machinery. Do realize that a CNC machinist is a different job than a CAD/CAM specialist. In many locations even the CAD designer is a separate job from the CAM specialist. You likely wouldn't see either the CAD person nor the CAM person operating the mill in a large shop. A person doing all three jobs is likely to seen in a small job shop but that isn't the bulk of industry. In any event i understand the need to have machinery to run the students creations on. My concern is that you will also need to teach some of the skills that a machinist needs to effectively run the router.

Speaking of routers don't dismiss other machine tools that might provide a training platform. Simple conversions can be done to manual mills that would be good enough for training. Im not at all certain what the used machinery market is like there but it may be cost effective compared to importing a lot of steel and aluminum. Around here steel, especially scraps and drops is dirt cheap so that is one reason i lean towards steel for router construction. In any event the point i wanted to make is that a traditionally designed router is not a mandatory thing here. Any machine; be it a lathe, horizontal or vertical mill, has potential for conversion to CNC for educational purposes. As long as you have at least two axis you can use it for educational purposes. In a class room you can even use an old XY plotter converted to accept XY control from a CNC controller to demo some of the G-code commands.

Speaking of G-Code that needs to be taught as a subject all on its own. There will be times where the CAM software screws something up. Understanding G-Code allows the CAM programmer to chase these issues down and correct them. From the machine operstion side the operator needs to understand G-Code and the controllers operation. They also need to understand that G-Code is a loose standard requiring specific controller knowledge.