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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?
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  1. #1
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    What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    The spindle I bought was sent to the wrong address... so I might have to choose a new one and I have been offered a good deal on a new ATC spindle. The problem is that I don't fully understand how they work or what additional kit I would need to buy and the seller is completely useless.

    First, is there additional hardware needed to connect the spindle to my computer? I am assuming that something is needed to allow Mach3 to operate the pneumatic tool holder? Can Mach3 or Linux CNC even operate ATC spindles natively?

    Can I use my regular shop compressor (with a regulator) as the air source or would I need to buy some super expensive CNC compressor?

    Do the compressors have to be on the whole time the spindle is in use or are they switched on just for tool releases? The spindle uses fan cooling so compressed air is not required for that (I think).

    Can I use a bunch of those cheap plastic ISO30 tool clamps at the side of my table instead of investing in a carosel?

    Do ATC spindles generally draw more power than regular spindles. It's only a 3.8kw 220v device but it states 24amps. That's 25% more than the 5.6kw MTC spindle I bought. I can't figure out why. It is a 4 pole device but I don't really know what that actually means....

  2. #2
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Generally, you''ll need to use a few inputs in Mach3 to read sensors in the spindle,and maybe 1 or 2 outputs to activate the toolchanger. You'll probably need a solenpid valve or two, and maybe relays to activate them? It depends on your breakout board.

    You'll need to write your own M6 macro to control the toolchanger. There's a tutorial video and sample macro on the Machsupport website.
    Yes, you can build a rack type tool changer using the simple plastic forks.

    A Kw is a Kw. Similar sized spindles should draw the same amount of current.
    Gerry

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  3. #3
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    ATC spindles typically have some form of orientation requirement/method.
    Depending on the tool shank type etc.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
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  4. #4
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    ATC's for routers normally don't.
    Gerry

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  5. #5
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    ATC's for routers normally don't.
    The OP didn't say, also for a 3.8kw 220v and 4 pole, it smacks of a Mill?
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  6. #6
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    Do ATC spindles generally draw more power than regular spindles. It's only a 3.8kw 220v device but it states 24amps. That's 25% more than the 5.6kw MTC spindle I bought. I can't figure out why. It is a 4 pole device but I don't really know what that actually means....
    Is this a single phase spindle?

    220V x 24A = 5280 Watts

    3800 / 5280 = 72% efficient, so that actually makes sense. Also, higher quality spindles will usually be able to output more power than the rating for a short time, so perhaps its more efficient than that, and the max amp draw you're looking at includes the short term overload. I don't know if this is the case. Single phase is less efficient than three phase I believe.

    Some of the cheaper spindles might list the electrical input power used as the spindle rating, so it's not the same thing because obviously the spindle is not 100% efficient.

    If the spindle is 3 phase, then 220 x 24 x 1.73 = 9.1 kW which makes no sense at all. Not sure I've ever come across a high quality single phase ATC spindle?

    You'd need a single phase output VFD to run it. Something doesn't sound right about this to me. Where exactly did it say 24 Amps?

  7. #7
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Also, many of these spindles have lots of sensors that you will need to hook up to use with ATC. Try to find a manual with the pinout diagram for your spindle.

    I plan on using mine as a quick change, not ATC. And I wish I had more info, a user manual, technical guide, anything.

    How to do ATC with mach 3, I have no idea.

  8. #8
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Is this a single phase spindle?

    220V x 24A = 5280 Watts

    3800 / 5280 = 72% efficient, so that actually makes sense. Also, higher quality spindles will usually be able to output more power than the rating for a short time, so perhaps its more efficient than that, and the max amp draw you're looking at includes the short term overload. I don't know if this is the case. Single phase is less efficient than three phase I believe.

    Some of the cheaper spindles might list the electrical input power used as the spindle rating, so it's not the same thing because obviously the spindle is not 100% efficient.

    If the spindle is 3 phase, then 220 x 24 x 1.73 = 9.1 kW which makes no sense at all. Not sure I've ever come across a high quality single phase ATC spindle?

    You'd need a single phase output VFD to run it. Something doesn't sound right about this to me. Where exactly did it say 24 Amps?

    It doesn't look right to me either but I'm sure I'm missing something.

    It states 24a on the spindle label under the 220v section (it has a 380v option too). It's actually 23amp for 400hz s1 and 24amp for 400hz s6. It also lists 21a S1 for 800hz which made be think / guess that the extra amps were because it was constant power spindle or at least that it can deliver full hp from 12000 to 24000 rpm.

    it doesn't state if it's one or three phase but I haven't come across many / any 220v 1 phase spindles in any price range.

    It definitely is not a cheap device.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Is this a single phase spindle?

    220V x 24A = 5280 Watts

    3800 / 5280 = 72% efficient, so that actually makes sense. Also, higher quality spindles will usually be able to output more power than the rating for a short time, so perhaps its more efficient than that, and the max amp draw you're looking at includes the short term overload. I don't know if this is the case. Single phase is less efficient than three phase I believe.

    Some of the cheaper spindles might list the electrical input power used as the spindle rating, so it's not the same thing because obviously the spindle is not 100% efficient.

    If the spindle is 3 phase, then 220 x 24 x 1.73 = 9.1 kW which makes no sense at all. Not sure I've ever come across a high quality single phase ATC spindle?

    You'd need a single phase output VFD to run it. Something doesn't sound right about this to me. Where exactly did it say 24 Amps?

    It doesn't look right to me either but I'm sure I'm missing something.

    It states 24a on the spindle label under the 220v section (it has a 380v option too). It's actually 23amp for 400hz s1 and 24amp for 400hz s6. It also lists 21a S1 for 800hz which made be think / guess that the extra amps were because it was constant power spindle or at least that it can deliver full hp from 12000 to 24000 rpm.

    it doesn't state if it's one or three phase but I haven't come across many / any 220v 1 phase spindles in any price range.

    It definitely is not a cheap device.

  9. #9
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Also, many of these spindles have lots of sensors that you will need to hook up to use with ATC. Try to find a manual with the pinout diagram for your spindle.

    I plan on using mine as a quick change, not ATC. And I wish I had more info, a user manual, technical guide, anything.

    How to do ATC with mach 3, I have no idea.

    It seems like something that should be easy to google but it's not. CNC vendors lose all powers of description and almost all command of the English language when they go into business so nobody who sells them knows anything about them.

    I spent at least 5 hours reading about spindles which I'm now convinced is 4 hours 59 mins more than many CNC vendors...

    They should be able to say, "to use the ATC spindle we sell, you will need to buy this breakout board, this valve, this regulator, these 4 tubes etc".

    What the hell do these "sensors" plug into???

  10. #10
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post

    What the hell do these "sensors" plug into???
    I'm guessing most of them plug into the VFD and shut it down when there is an error.

    Some spindles have lots more pins than others. Sorry I can't be more help in this department.

  11. #11
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    I'm guessing most of them plug into the VFD and shut it down when there is an error.
    I believe that in most cases, they are 24V outputs, that you connect to inputs on your breakout board.

    There are sensors that tell you if the tool is clamped, if the spindle is spinning, collet open, ...
    It's up to the control to monitor the status of the spindle, not the VFD.
    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  12. #12
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Here's an HSD manual with a lot of info on how ATC's are connected.

    http://www.cancam.ca/wp-content/uplo...88X-SERIES.pdf
    Gerry

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  13. #13
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I believe that in most cases, they are 24V outputs, that you connect to inputs on your breakout board.

    There are sensors that tell you if the tool is clamped, if the spindle is spinning, collet open, ...
    It's up to the control to monitor the status of the spindle, not the VFD.
    That would mean that you need a different breakout board right? I can't see any outputs to the spindle at all on the Gecko G540. I was thinking that there must be a seperate pci express card for the computer with outputs to control a compressor, an electric solenoid valve and the spindle itself. I guess it could just as easily be that more sophisticated CNC control boards have additional output ports to rig up an ATC set-up.

    The fact that macros are used to trigger tool changes means that it has to come from the computer. The question is whether that card comes with ATC spindles. I don't see them for sale separately at CNC vendors who sell ATC spindles.

  14. #14
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Looks like cards like this have additional functionality over my Gecko G540:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mach3-USB-3...wAAOSwNyFWfLda

    They have ports for the spindle speed control and additional pulses which I am assuming could be used for ATC functions.

    I wonder is anyone makes a version designed to be used alongside a G540. I guess this one could. You just wouldn't use it to control your stepper motors.

  15. #15
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    The G540 and the board you linked to are to very different things.
    The G540 is sort of a combination stepper drive/breakout board, designed to be used with a single parallel port. As such, it only has a limited number of inputs and outputs available.
    4 Inputs, 2 Outputs, and an analog speed control, which can control the rpm through the spindles VFD. You'll need to use one of the two outputs to start/stop the spindle.

    The board you linked too is a Mach3 motion control board, with integrated breakout board. This allows you to run Mach3 via USB, taking the place of the parallel port., and also allowing you to use Mach on modern, 64 bit OS's. It still requires stepper drives like the G540, but this particular board is not a good match for the G540, as it's difficult to interface the two.

    There are many Mach3 motion controllers available. Different motion controllers have varying amounts of I/O. Most have a parallel port interface, allowing you to plug your G540 directly into them. They can have as few as one, and as many as 3 or more ports worth of inputs and outputs. I highly recommend avoiding ALL of the chinese models.

    If you choose to go this route, I'd recommend either an ethernet Smoothstepper, or a UC300ETH, or UC400ETH. All of these are widely used, and are well supported. They also have parallel port connectors, so you can plug your G540 into one port, and add a second or even third breakout board for more inputs and outputs.

    If you planned on using the parallel port, you could always add second parallel port with a PCI parallel port card, with a second breakout board.
    Gerry

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  16. #16
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    The G540 and the board you linked to are to very different things.
    The G540 is sort of a combination stepper drive/breakout board, designed to be used with a single parallel port. As such, it only has a limited number of inputs and outputs available.
    4 Inputs, 2 Outputs, and an analog speed control, which can control the rpm through the spindles VFD. You'll need to use one of the two outputs to start/stop the spindle.

    The board you linked too is a Mach3 motion control board, with integrated breakout board. This allows you to run Mach3 via USB, taking the place of the parallel port., and also allowing you to use Mach on modern, 64 bit OS's. It still requires stepper drives like the G540, but this particular board is not a good match for the G540, as it's difficult to interface the two.

    There are many Mach3 motion controllers available. Different motion controllers have varying amounts of I/O. Most have a parallel port interface, allowing you to plug your G540 directly into them. They can have as few as one, and as many as 3 or more ports worth of inputs and outputs. I highly recommend avoiding ALL of the chinese models.

    If you choose to go this route, I'd recommend either an ethernet Smoothstepper, or a UC300ETH, or UC400ETH. All of these are widely used, and are well supported. They also have parallel port connectors, so you can plug your G540 into one port, and add a second or even third breakout board for more inputs and outputs.

    If you planned on using the parallel port, you could always add second parallel port with a PCI parallel port card, with a second breakout board.

    The worlstation I plan to use to control the CNC has 3 parallel port cards installed already so adding more breakout boards is no issue. It's a nice set-up for it. It has a Quadro 6000 GPU with Tesla compute card and runs with a water-cooled Xeon processor designed to run cool over continuous use. It has all solid state drives and it is in a flat / horizontal case which will easily fit underneath the table frame.

    The reason I linked to that Mach3 control card was that it seems to have outputs that are suitable for activating solenoid valves and switching compressors on and off in addition to ports for the steppers. I am not suggesting that I should buy this specific card (or any Chinese card) though. Only that it looks like an additional card would be needed to control ATC functions with Mach3 or any other software solution. This is unless of course that ATC cards come with their own PCI express card with these functions.

    I am going to assume that high end CNC control boards probably have ports for ATC functions as standard.

    Anyway, it looks like a false alarm as, against all odds, PDS managed to find the spindle they sent to the wrong address and deliver it. Check out this bad boy!




    Made in Italy (by Hiteco apparently). 7.5hp. Electric fan cooled. Constant torque all the way from 0 to 24,000rpm. No dips at all. 4 bearings and these are the upgraded ceramic "precision" angular contact type. ER25 toolholder. It's much larger and heavier than I was expecting. I put a $20 bill next to it for scale. I am very happy I listened to you guys and chose not to go with the 150lb Tormach 770 head. It would have been impossible to mount properly without help....

    I might still buy the ATC spindle though. The deal is too good to pass up and I doubt I'll ever see a deal that good ever again...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_3965.jpg  

  17. #17
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    This is unless of course that ATC cards come with their own PCI express card with these functions.

    I am going to assume that high end CNC control boards probably have ports for ATC functions as standard.
    All you need is a breakout board that has 24V inputs and outputs. There are no special ATC functions, just inputs and outputs. You can use the same input for a pushbutton or limit switch as you'd use for an ATC sensor.
    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  18. #18
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    What kind of tool magazine do you intend using?
    If it is not an off the shelf system, they are quite tricky to program and set up if not program/selection control of some kind is not present or set up for.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  19. #19
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    What kind of tool magazine do you intend using?
    If it is not an off the shelf system, they are quite tricky to program and set up if not program/selection control of some kind is not present or set up for.
    Al.
    The cheapest and simplest diy method I have seen in my research is to mount a bunch of those cheap plastic toolholder clamps at the edge of the work area. This way, each toolholder is a fixed position that you can set coordinates for in a macro. It's one of the advantages of the moving spindle (instead of a moving table) on a CNC router. It's obviously more complicated if you need to move the toolholders on a fixed column mill.

    I saw one set-up where the guy had the tool cart come in and out of the work area for tool changes on it's own seperate rail. He was able to save some useable work envelope this way but it looked like extra complexity without much benefit to me.

    I am certainly not going to be investing $3000 on a motorized carosel or anything like that. I prefer the idea of keeping it simple and being able to create as many tool posts as I wanted.

  20. #20
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    Re: What kit do you need to run ATC spindles?

    Now that I can see how to trigger 24v pulses through macros in Mach3, I am surprised that one of you industrious fellows hasn't made a cheap diy ATC conversion for ER spindles using a pneumatic torque wrench (for the collet nut), a regulator (to ensure consistent torque) and bunch of straight shank toolholders like these ER32 units that connect with a 1/2" diameter straight stub:




    For some reason, it really bothers me that auto tool changers are so expensive. It shouldn't as ATC is not even a priority for me because I won't be using my machine to make product (to sell). It just seems like something they should be able to make for less.

    I am not the guy to tackle a project like that but I have seen you guys pull off some amazing things. If they can make a power drawbar for R8 spindles for $150... then why not an ER25 power collet nut....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_3967.jpg  

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