584,861 active members*
5,055 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > Controller & Computer Solutions > Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup
Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    14

    Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    Hi!
    I'm building an hybrid CNC mill/3d printer, and aside the differences from the 2 systems (speed vs stiffness, etc), i need a suggestion on the controller board to use.
    I see a lot of different options, but none specific for an hybrid setup. Would be nice something mith the ability to connect a manual pad for controlling manually the axes (like a cnc) and a display. For sure i'll use features like heated bed (3d printer), auto leveling bed, tool sensor (CNC), etc.
    I will drive normal steppers (not closed loop), maybe usb connection
    Someone, please, have some suggestions?
    Really thanks!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    14

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    As a newbie, i've searched a bit... A lot of things to learn :tired:
    From what i've understood there are mainly 2 ways:
    1) Signal processed by pc (mach3/4, uccnc, linuxcnc, etc)
    2) Signal processed by control board (almost any 3d printer oriented board).
    As far as i've understood method 1 works best for cnc because have a good screen, deal better with g-code (more coverage on commands), easy to find a pendant, etc. They can be made work with a 3d printer but for example not control the temperature of the bed or of the extruder, no bed leveling.
    Method 2 is nicer, i really like to process the code on the board (allow to shut down the pc) but have the previously mentioned downsides.
    I've found some boards using method 2 that seem an interesting hybrid, but with limitations... Smoothieboard and duet....

    What route did you suggest to follow?

    Thanks!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    Hi,

    I have also had similar plans and assuming you will have a 4-axis driver card, this is fairly simple. I don't know about Mach3 or other CNC software, but at least with UCCNC this is possible because it has a 3D printer plugin. I designed and built a 3 axis CNC some time ago and planned to use it as 3D printer also, so I tested the concept but then I decided not to carry on because of several reasons...

    • The Z axis is far too heavy for no reason (in this concept).
    • The machine is too noisy for a several hours of printing pass.
    • Need a special fixture for the heat bed.
    • Temperature control of heat bed plus several extruders is not an option, especially if you want PID control.
    • My CNC is very fast as CNC (maximum 9000mm/min on all axes) but still very slow as 3D printer.
    • CNC is useless when the printer head is installed and the spindle is removed (and vice versa).
    • 3D printing means many very small movements and that created a lot of rapid up/down motion which may tear the Z apart after a short time.
    • The 3D printer is independent of the PC, if I want I can run it from an SD-card. The CNC requires the PC.
    • Better, more advanced heat control. The 3D printer has PID for two extruders and a bed, the CNC has nothing of that.

    The list can be made long.

    ...but if you want to print at snail speed then it is OK.

    In the end and after some consideration I decided to buy a super cheap acrylic 3D printer kit to test and learn and to see if I want a better one later. It arrived a a few days later and after a few hours it was ready to print. I think considering the price and the used materials it is an excellent printer, but already before it arrived I decided to make some changes, so after less than a week I started with some serious modifications, still with the aim of learning. After the fairly simple improvements the printer is very accurate and is super fast, making 15000mm/min on X and Y and 6000mm/min on Z (using ordinary threaded rod with 1.25mm pitch). I decided to build a 3D printer from scratch and use this one to make some parts and as a test object. Improving this Geeetech is done, as far as I am concerned, it is as good as it gets. The building of my own 3D printer is in progress, frame is ready, 1204 ball screws for Z, 9mm wide 2mm pitch belt for X and Y, MGN12 linear rail guides for Z and Y and MGN9 rails for X. Will use the same electronics as the Geeetech, which is the GT2560 board.

    With the Geeetech as it is, I have rapids of 15m/min and my CNC has a maximum of 9m/min, so already here the cheap 3D printer wins over the considerably more expensive CNC. Noise level is extremely low compared to the CNC, I can run the printer for several hours in my home and sitting in the same room I can Skype, speak on phone or watch a movie without being disturbed and in the next room you gear nothing. With the CNC this is not possible even if the spindle motor is not running and the CNC is just milling air. This is because of the belt drive on X and Y axis. While ball screws run pretty quiet nothing beats belt drive when it comes to low noise and high speed. Another point against the CNC/3D printer combo is that you don't need to have a high mass on the gantry (if you have a moving gantry type) or the table (if you have a moving table type like I have). The table of CNC is very heavy, as opposed to the table of the 3D printer, which is very light. The 3D printer must only be able to move a few grams, while the CNC must shuffle around a heavy table PLUS a heavy vise as well as a work piece which can also weight a few kg so a ball screw is better and a 9mm wide belt would not be able to manage it.

    Stiffness is an advantage for both, the stiffer machine produces better and more accurate work, but low mass is an advantage for 3D printer but a HUGE disadvantage for a CNC, high mass on moving parts is a HUGE disadvantage for 3D printers because speed and acceleration becomes low unless you spend a lot on it.

    There are plenty arguments against, but I think if you have space it is better to buy a 3D printer than to modify a CNC. All I can say is that my decision of abandoning the idea of combining CNC and a 3D printer was right and have not regretted ever since I made my very first printing. I don't think it would have made a difference which board I'd use. Currently I am using UC300ETH and UCCNC for my CNC and GT2560 plus Marlin and Repetier-Host and Slic3r for the 3D printer and very happy with those.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    14

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Hi,

    I have also had similar plans and assuming you will have a 4-axis driver card, this is fairly simple. I don't know about Mach3 or other CNC software, but at least with UCCNC this is possible because it has a 3D printer plugin. I designed and built a 3 axis CNC some time ago and planned to use it as 3D printer also, so I tested the concept but then I decided not to carry on because of several reasons...

    • The Z axis is far too heavy for no reason (in this concept).
    • The machine is too noisy for a several hours of printing pass.
    • Need a special fixture for the heat bed.
    • Temperature control of heat bed plus several extruders is not an option, especially if you want PID control.
    • My CNC is very fast as CNC (maximum 9000mm/min on all axes) but still very slow as 3D printer.
    • CNC is useless when the printer head is installed and the spindle is removed (and vice versa).
    • 3D printing means many very small movements and that created a lot of rapid up/down motion which may tear the Z apart after a short time.
    • The 3D printer is independent of the PC, if I want I can run it from an SD-card. The CNC requires the PC.
    • Better, more advanced heat control. The 3D printer has PID for two extruders and a bed, the CNC has nothing of that.

    The list can be made long.

    ...but if you want to print at snail speed then it is OK.

    In the end and after some consideration I decided to buy a super cheap acrylic 3D printer kit to test and learn and to see if I want a better one later. It arrived a a few days later and after a few hours it was ready to print. I think considering the price and the used materials it is an excellent printer, but already before it arrived I decided to make some changes, so after less than a week I started with some serious modifications, still with the aim of learning. After the fairly simple improvements the printer is very accurate and is super fast, making 15000mm/min on X and Y and 6000mm/min on Z (using ordinary threaded rod with 1.25mm pitch). I decided to build a 3D printer from scratch and use this one to make some parts and as a test object. Improving this Geeetech is done, as far as I am concerned, it is as good as it gets. The building of my own 3D printer is in progress, frame is ready, 1204 ball screws for Z, 9mm wide 2mm pitch belt for X and Y, MGN12 linear rail guides for Z and Y and MGN9 rails for X. Will use the same electronics as the Geeetech, which is the GT2560 board.

    With the Geeetech as it is, I have rapids of 15m/min and my CNC has a maximum of 9m/min, so already here the cheap 3D printer wins over the considerably more expensive CNC. Noise level is extremely low compared to the CNC, I can run the printer for several hours in my home and sitting in the same room I can Skype, speak on phone or watch a movie without being disturbed and in the next room you gear nothing. With the CNC this is not possible even if the spindle motor is not running and the CNC is just milling air. This is because of the belt drive on X and Y axis. While ball screws run pretty quiet nothing beats belt drive when it comes to low noise and high speed. Another point against the CNC/3D printer combo is that you don't need to have a high mass on the gantry (if you have a moving gantry type) or the table (if you have a moving table type like I have). The table of CNC is very heavy, as opposed to the table of the 3D printer, which is very light. The 3D printer must only be able to move a few grams, while the CNC must shuffle around a heavy table PLUS a heavy vise as well as a work piece which can also weight a few kg so a ball screw is better and a 9mm wide belt would not be able to manage it.

    Stiffness is an advantage for both, the stiffer machine produces better and more accurate work, but low mass is an advantage for 3D printer but a HUGE disadvantage for a CNC, high mass on moving parts is a HUGE disadvantage for 3D printers because speed and acceleration becomes low unless you spend a lot on it.

    There are plenty arguments against, but I think if you have space it is better to buy a 3D printer than to modify a CNC. All I can say is that my decision of abandoning the idea of combining CNC and a 3D printer was right and have not regretted ever since I made my very first printing. I don't think it would have made a difference which board I'd use. Currently I am using UC300ETH and UCCNC for my CNC and GT2560 plus Marlin and Repetier-Host and Slic3r for the 3D printer and very happy with those.
    Wow, thanks for your feedback
    I was reading on the net (specs of some good 3d printers) that the 3d printing speed is much slower than 15000mm/min. I've read that printing quality decreases a lot above 70mm/s (4200mm/min) due to the properties of the melt filament. I was planning to use 5mm ballscrews and near 1000rpm nema23 motors (5000mm/min). For sure the other factors play a big role for not continue on this way, but for what i do (only few parts, no big production) i think (hope?) that i can have something usable in both worlds.
    I'm also thinking to use 2 different controllers and switch them if i can't find a controller that can do what i need. I have no problems doing a 2 part bed (remove the heavy part doing 3d print - i plan to move the x axis) and changing the spindle with the extruder(s)...

    Inviato dal mio SM-A520F utilizzando Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    Quote Originally Posted by masterx81 View Post
    Wow, thanks for your feedback

    I was reading on the net (specs of some good 3d printers) that the 3d printing speed is much slower than 15000mm/min. I've read that printing quality decreases a lot above 70mm/s (4200mm/min) due to the properties of the melt filament. I was planning to use 5mm ballscrews and near 1000rpm nema23 motors (5000mm/min). For sure the other factors play a big role for not continue on this way, but for what i do (only few parts, no big production) i think (hope?) that i can have something usable in both worlds.
    I'm also thinking to use 2 different controllers and switch them if i can't find a controller that can do what i need. I have no problems doing a 2 part bed (remove the heavy part doing 3d print - i plan to move the x axis) and changing the spindle with the extruder(s)...
    I think that the X and Y ball screws will be ripped apart before you know it... My CNC uses also 1605 ball screws but as I said, the mass is a disadvantage for 3D printers.

    Anyway, the maximum speed is not the printing speed, but maximum speed and high acceleration reduces printing (and milling) time considerably if you have many short rapid moves in whatever you are working on. Sure, printing speeds over 80mm/s my not be necessary, and is not useful for critical parts of a printed object, but for filling inside the printed object it is not a problem at all.

    As for the "only few parts, no big production"... well, I bet you that once you make your first print you will like it far too much. I also had the same idea, but now using the printer more and more... because it is fun.

    Swapping controllers will not be very easy. Remember that there are many wires to swap, so personally I don't believe in that idea because it is far too impractical in my opinion.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35538

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    Printers are so cheap, that it makes no sense to build a dual purpose machine. You can buy a pretty good quality printer for $500-$600 these days.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    14

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Printers are so cheap, that it makes no sense to build a dual purpose machine. You can buy a pretty good quality printer for $500-$600 these days.
    How much "good"? From what i've seen from my friends that have printers (both delta and cartesian) need a lot of tweaking for have them working good.
    In any case i want to build the cnc, and made it as reactive as possible for doing small alu milling. And if possible, reuse the same structure (most for space saving) for do both the things...

    Inviato dal mio SM-A520F utilizzando Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    14

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    So, for now if i put aside the 3d print idea, want a controller board that do decent motion planning i see no real options. Smoothieboard and duet not seem an option (but are fascinating me...)
    Based on my research, if i want to do a decent cnc remain to choose between few options...
    Linuxcnc via parallel port (dirty chap)
    Linuxcnc via mesa eth board (seem a good controller)
    Uccnc with uc300/400eth board (that seem to have a really good motion planner, compared to mach3, but not found a comparative with linuxcnc)

    Mach3 from what i've read it's almost abandoned (but still in use) and mach4 i wasn't able to find a valid "comparative"

    Uccnc need a windows pc, while linuxcnc have it's own os (and run also on raspberryp )

    For mesa i've found here in europe eusurplus.com as reseller. Still need to find a reseller for uccnc

    I think that for starting i can try linuxcnc via parallel port... 4 axes for now are enough, and parallel port seem to give near 300khz signal.

    I think that i do a board for allowing me to swap easily the controller without messing with wires... so i can test putting a 3d controller board.... still want to try this idea, but for now i concentrate on the cnc side....

    Inviato dal mio SM-A520F utilizzando Tapatalk

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35538

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    and parallel port seem to give near 300khz signal.
    No, you are not going to get anywhere near 300Khz from a parallel port. 35Khz-75Khz would be more like it, but I'm not that familiar with LinuxCNC.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    1422

    Re: Controller suggestion for CNC/3D printer hybrid setup

    Quote Originally Posted by masterx81 View Post
    How much "good"? From what i've seen from my friends that have printers (both delta and cartesian) need a lot of tweaking for have them working good.
    In any case i want to build the cnc, and made it as reactive as possible for doing small alu milling. And if possible, reuse the same structure (most for space saving) for do both the things...

    Inviato dal mio SM-A520F utilizzando Tapatalk
    I've used cheap $200 printers, $1000 printers, $5000 printers and a $25,000 machine.

    Throwing more money at 'em does very little to improve quality or reduce fiddling and tweaking workload. It's typically got very little to do with the head movement and a lot to do with control of the melt zone, how they achieve bed adhesion (eg heated bed, bed surface material) and whether they have a heated chamber to prevent warping from differential cooling. Choice of filament makes a big difference too - not always but a fifty dollar kilo of filament can be five times as good a print as a ten dollar kilo.

    Seriously, do it if you have to but be aware that you're trying to build a car that can drive on the water. Yes, they've done it eg the old ducks etc, but they turn out to be pretty crap on the land and awful in the water compared to just having two dedicated units. And at least with the amphibious vehicles there was a reason to have the two rolled into one.

    Buy a cheap printer, use it to make awful parts until your skills with it reach a point that it's worth upgrading. Use it to make prototype parts for your mill, too.

  11. #11
    i did manage to make a cnc/3dPrinter from one arduino based bord running marlin
    https://youtu.be/UonnGtfxDOs
    https://youtu.be/cmXtbzeib2w
    connect spindle to fan output. on software side use repetier host and its cnc plugin. it had very goog both 3d and cnc results
    also for online cnc use, i put bunch of setting gcods for, set x0, set y0, setz0, multi prob 10x10 20x20..., single prob, using them from marlin menu and then start the job gcode

Similar Threads

  1. Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion
    By PeterTheWolf in forum Dynomotion/Kflop/Kanalog
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 08-02-2020, 09:23 PM
  2. Hybrid 3d Printer and CNC hack need help.
    By akfourtymillion in forum 3D Printer / 3D Scanner Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-27-2014, 05:47 AM
  3. CAM/Controller software suggestion to mill this part?
    By ConcordStud733 in forum Uncategorised CAM Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-09-2013, 01:42 PM
  4. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-08-2011, 09:32 PM
  5. Koike Hybrid D10 controller - default SETUP Password?
    By mcphebb in forum Waterjet General Topics
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-08-2010, 01:23 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •