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  1. #1
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    Jul 2004
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    442

    Weldon air spindle

    I'm a hobby machinist.
    I have a generic T&C grinder, nice, probably made in the 70s. It came with some tooling and I've made some.
    But like most hobby guys I always have the "wants"; and one of those wants has been a Weldon air spindle. The other day one appeared on 'bay for not much money, obviously in bad shape. I was able to buy it, really cheap.
    So, the condition was/is worse than I thought, though the castings look fine. The spindle and bushing were totally corroded together. Using heat and 4 tons of pressure I got them apart. I know some of you are saying, oh no. The two parts might be scrap, or maybe not. If they are I'll make new ones, not as good s the originals, but they'll work, I think. They are very hard and could be that with some cleaning, maybe lapping, they might be usable.
    So, I need some help.
    What is the size of the gap between the spindle and bushing diameters, in case I need to make the parts, or one of them?
    The air orafice in both the housing and bushing are corroded shut; what size are these holes?
    I can easily redrill the housing but the bushing is very hard and even with a magnifier I can't find the hole, so I need some ideas there.
    The bushing is a snug fit in the housing. Is that all that is needed for it not to leak air? I presume the two set screws push the bushing and housing together at the air hole location.
    Also, what is the need or use, for the tilting sub-base.
    Thanks,
    Ozzie

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie34231 View Post
    I'm a hobby machinist.
    I have a generic T&C grinder, nice, probably made in the 70s. It came with some tooling and I've made some.
    But like most hobby guys I always have the "wants"; and one of those wants has been a Weldon air spindle. The other day one appeared on 'bay for not much money, obviously in bad shape. I was able to buy it, really cheap.
    So, the condition was/is worse than I thought, though the castings look fine. The spindle and bushing were totally corroded together. Using heat and 4 tons of pressure I got them apart. I know some of you are saying, oh no. The two parts might be scrap, or maybe not. If they are I'll make new ones, not as good s the originals, but they'll work, I think. They are very hard and could be that with some cleaning, maybe lapping, they might be usable.
    So, I need some help.
    What is the size of the gap between the spindle and bushing diameters, in case I need to make the parts, or one of them?
    The air orafice in both the housing and bushing are corroded shut; what size are these holes?
    I can easily redrill the housing but the bushing is very hard and even with a magnifier I can't find the hole, so I need some ideas there.
    The bushing is a snug fit in the housing. Is that all that is needed for it not to leak air? I presume the two set screws push the bushing and housing together at the air hole location.
    Also, what is the need or use, for the tilting sub-base.
    Thanks,
    Ozzie
    This one? I believe the tilting is for the second grind for clearance.

  3. #3
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    Jul 2004
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    442

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Yes that's it; the model before the #200 I think.

  4. #4
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    Jul 2004
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    442

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    The air passage hole in these units is extremely small. The manual,(which I bought ), talks about not shutting the air off during cleaning for fear of blocking the hole! As I said earlier, I can't see the hole in the bushing. Minor corrosion must be camouflaging it.
    I don't understand the reason it is so small.

  5. #5
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Hi, I have one of those Weldon air spindle too........came with a K.O. Lee cutter grinder I imported from the States many years a go.

    It is extremely important to have a moisture filter trap on the air entry point as well as on the compressor.

    DO NOT LUBRICATE THE SPINDLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.......IT MUST RUN COMPLETELY DRY.

    ALSO, NEVER MOVE THE SPINFDLE IN THE HOSING WITHOUT AIR ON.

    The spindle is hard Chrome plated and ground and lapped.

    The tilting mechanism is so that you can tilt it over to move the cutter away from the stone at the end of each tooth grind......being spring loaded it then moves back to an adjustable stop so that you can grind the next tooth etc.

    If you haven't got the original adaptor bushes to hold the cutters.in the spindle.....'twiil all be Imperial sizes........ I would suggest getting an ER32 collet chuck with a straight 1-1/4" shank as the biggest hole in the spindle is a1-1/4" bore..........if they are only available in 32mm diam sizes you need to lap .25mm off to make it fit.....but adaptor bushes can be made.

    The one I have will be up for sale as I have a Cuttermaster T/C grinder and it already has one on it......if anyone is interested give me a PM.
    Ian.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi, I have one of those Weldon air spindle too........came with a K.O. Lee cutter grinder I imported from the States many years a go.

    It is extremely important to have a moisture filter trap on the air entry point as well as on the compressor.

    DO NOT LUBRICATE THE SPINDLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.......IT MUST RUN COMPLETELY DRY.

    ALSO, NEVER MOVE THE SPINFDLE IN THE HOSING WITHOUT AIR ON.

    The spindle is hard Chrome plated and ground and lapped.

    The tilting mechanism is so that you can tilt it over to move the cutter away from the stone at the end of each tooth grind......being spring loaded it then moves back to an adjustable stop so that you can grind the next tooth etc.

    If you haven't got the original adaptor bushes to hold the cutters.in the spindle.....'twiil all be Imperial sizes........ I would suggest getting an ER32 collet chuck with a straight 1-1/4" shank as the biggest hole in the spindle is a1-1/4" bore..........if they are only available in 32mm diam sizes you need to lap .25mm off to make it fit.....but adaptor bushes can be made.

    The one I have will be up for sale as I have a Cuttermaster T/C grinder and it already has one on it......if anyone is interested give me a PM.
    Ian.
    Morning is there any chance of a pic of your unit I've seen lots of parts but not one together.

  7. #7
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    Jul 2004
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    442

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi, I have one of those Weldon air spindle too........came with a K.O. Lee cutter grinder I imported from the States many years a go.

    It is extremely important to have a moisture filter trap on the air entry point as well as on the compressor.

    DO NOT LUBRICATE THE SPINDLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.......IT MUST RUN COMPLETELY DRY.

    ALSO, NEVER MOVE THE SPINFDLE IN THE HOSING WITHOUT AIR ON.

    The spindle is hard Chrome plated and ground and lapped.

    The tilting mechanism is so that you can tilt it over to move the cutter away from the stone at the end of each tooth grind......being spring loaded it then moves back to an adjustable stop so that you can grind the next tooth etc.

    If you haven't got the original adaptor bushes to hold the cutters.in the spindle.....'twiil all be Imperial sizes........ I would suggest getting an ER32 collet chuck with a straight 1-1/4" shank as the biggest hole in the spindle is a1-1/4" bore..........if they are only available in 32mm diam sizes you need to lap .25mm off to make it fit.....but adaptor bushes can be made.

    The one I have will be up for sale as I have a Cuttermaster T/C grinder and it already has one on it......if anyone is interested give me a PM.
    Ian.
    Thank you for your reply.
    I'm sure that what you have is valuable, and I'm just trying to cobble together a crippled unit that some previous owner damaged by violating all the rules you mention. If I get the spindle to float I'll be able to adapt one of the ER systems for holding the mills. I use ER 11, 16, 25, and 40. The tilting that you mention, is something I am aware of; it is the big attraction of this unit for me. But mine also came with a sub-base that can tilt along either axis depending on which direction it is mounted. Anyway that is not a concern right now.
    I've found that both the shaft and the bushing are quite hard and it's possible that after cleaning, the clearances might be acceptable. From measurements I've taken in undamaged areas I think that the two pieces had only a couple ten-thousands of an inch clearance.
    Years ago plans were published of a unit by Phil Duclos that had 0.002" clearance. His claim was that given a good twist the shaft would revolve, floating, for over three minutes. So while I'm sure that the Weldon was/is a well engineered unit, its fame might be a bit over-hyped, and perhaps it was over-engineered.
    I am puzzled about the small size of the air passage. Why restrict the air there before it gets to the spindle? The Duclos unit had a #29 drill size hole.
    The hole is my problem. It is so small that I can't find it on the outside of the bushing, and since the bushing is so hard, it will be difficult to drill a new one. And, what size?
    My plan is to make a lap for the shaft and see if it cleans to a uniform diameter within a couple tenths. The bushing should be less problem, it's short.
    Then I'll need to get air to it! Somehow.
    Ozzie
    ,

  8. #8
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Hmmmmmm....I have a load of photos of the various Weldon units that appeared on the USA EBAY site.....just have to dig them out.........the pics I have of my unit are all 1.5Mb size so will need to be downsized.

    The sub base mentioned is to allow the angling up/down of the cutter and also carries the finger mounting arm ....it'll go up to give the end face clearance angle for end mills etc ....it also carries the springs to allow the spring away action I mentioned.

    The air is connected to a right angled mounting block screwed into the body of the device.......this is incomplete as the ones on the USA EBAY site also have a long tube with a knob on the end to allow tilting against spring pressure.

    If/when I can get the pics down sized I'll post them.

    If you only have the Weldon unit it will be more practical to mount it on a base plate and keep it set in the horizontal plane and use a bench grinder on an adjustable angled base with a cup stone mounted at right angle to it.

    You can then angle the bench grinder upwards to get the necessary helix primary and secondary clearance angles instead of the tedious method of going above centre on the periphery of the stone.......the CUTTERMASTER I have uses this method, so much easier.
    Ian.

  9. #9
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    6463

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie34231 View Post
    Thank you for your reply.
    I'm sure that what you have is valuable, and I'm just trying to cobble together a crippled unit that some previous owner damaged by violating all the rules you mention. If I get the spindle to float I'll be able to adapt one of the ER systems for holding the mills. I use ER 11, 16, 25, and 40. The tilting that you mention, is something I am aware of; it is the big attraction of this unit for me. But mine also came with a sub-base that can tilt along either axis depending on which direction it is mounted. Anyway that is not a concern right now.
    I've found that both the shaft and the bushing are quite hard and it's possible that after cleaning, the clearances might be acceptable. From measurements I've taken in undamaged areas I think that the two pieces had only a couple ten-thousands of an inch clearance.
    Years ago plans were published of a unit by Phil Duclos that had 0.002" clearance. His claim was that given a good twist the shaft would revolve, floating, for over three minutes. So while I'm sure that the Weldon was/is a well engineered unit, its fame might be a bit over-hyped, and perhaps it was over-engineered.
    I am puzzled about the small size of the air passage. Why restrict the air there before it gets to the spindle? The Duclos unit had a #29 drill size hole.
    The hole is my problem. It is so small that I can't find it on the outside of the bushing, and since the bushing is so hard, it will be difficult to drill a new one. And, what size?
    My plan is to make a lap for the shaft and see if it cleans to a uniform diameter within a couple tenths. The bushing should be less problem, it's short.
    Then I'll need to get air to it! Somehow.
    Ozzie
    ,
    Hi, If I remember rightly there are 2 bushes with a gap between them that connects to a decent sized hole....... about 1/4 BSP...... in the side of the unit......the air supply is screwed into this.

    You could let the unit soak overnight in paint thinners to dissolve the crud.
    Ian.

  10. #10
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    Jul 2004
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    442

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    The crud is probably rust, so paint thinners won't do much.
    The hole beyond the 1/4 BSP is clogged and is/was so small that I cannot see where it exits inside the housing.
    Logic would say that it was drilled coaxially with the pipe fitting hole. Logic would also dictate that the hole through the bushing, (which I also can't see), was done right through the housing hole, both pieces in one operation.
    I have drills down to .015" but they are not long enough to do such a job. So, unless I come up with a better thought, I'll try drilling with the smallest drill that is long enough. Getting through the housing should be no problem, but the bushing seems very hard and I wonder if it will drill. There exist tiny carbide drills but they are very short.
    Right now I'm thinking:
    Install the bushing in the housing.
    Set up on drill press with a #60 drill
    Run with a lube at high speed.
    If the drill won't penetrate the bushing, hopefully it will at least mark the bushing, and NOT BREAK in the hole.
    Then remove the bushing and grind it thin at the marked spot with a Dremel.
    Then buy a tiny carbide drill and make the hole.
    Since the hole will not be the original size, and the clearance between spindle and bushing not to specs, will the spindle float?
    My guess is that by playing with air pressures it will work.
    Ozzie

  11. #11
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Hi........on the spindle I have there are 2 bushes both made from what appears to be bronze and are spaced about 10mm apart.

    The side air entry is quite large at 1/4 BSP and only serves to feed air to the middle of the bushes and then between the spindle and bushes.

    The clearance between the spindle and bushes makes the spindle float on the air gap as the air is forced to escape evenly between the walls of the bushes and the spindle itself.

    Strangly, without any air on, the spindle is quite stiff to move.

    The spindle is hard chrome plated so it will not be subject to rusting ........the crud you have is what came in with the air and is probably a mix of water and old compressor oil that has decomposed and dried out to something like varnish.

    I would carefully poke a sharpened welding rod into the side hole and see if you can break up the crud.

    With the spindle out of the body look down the bore to see if there are 2 bushes like I said.........if you can see that there are 2 of them then the crud may be fairly large and completely blocking the middle bit.

    The small clearance between the spindle and the bushes will regulate the amount of air that can flow and make the spindle float..........wear will not occur ever as the spindle rides on air and does not make contact at all with the bushes at any time.
    Ian..

  12. #12
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    Jul 2004
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    442

    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Hi Ian,
    The construction of your unit sounds much different from mine.
    In my unit there is a single bushing, the length of the housing, hard steel. In the bore of this bushing there is a centered undercut about an inch wide, maybe 0.100" deep. So, in mine a single bushing does the job of the two on yours. The top outside of the bushing has two short V-shaped grooves, offset from each other by about 22 degrees, one running length-wise, the other radially. on the top of the housing, in places that match the bushing, there are set screws, one directly on top, the other toward the rear. The combination of the screws and grooves are surely to lock the bushing in a very specific position, and I assume to press it against the air inlet hole, so that a hole in the bushing is aligned with the one in the housing.
    The manual, (bought separately), goes to great lengths about how to clean the unit without clogging the air inlet, even suggesting leaving the air supply on while cleaning so as not to block the passage. It says that once blocked the passage may be nearly impossible to unblock! So it is small. It is so small that I cannot see it. Like yours there is an air inlet pipe thread and presumably a concentric hole going through the housing, but no light passes through it, and inside the bore I cannot see any hole where it should be, or anywhere. There should be a matching hole in the bushing and I know the approximate location because of the locating screws. However I can not see or detect any hole inside or outside the bushing.
    There is some minor corrosion pitting on the outside of the bushing which might be camouflaging a hole, but even under 10X magnification I cannot see a hole. I cannot see a hole inside the bushing.
    I agree with you that the air escaping around the shaft should control the air flow, so why the tiny hole. What can its purpose be?
    Air going through a small hole would increase in velocity while in the hole. It would cool as it expands. So what? Maybe it was a temperature control scheme?
    Anyway, I think that the tiny hole is not needed to make the spindle float. I just need to get air through the housing and then through the bushing, and of course get bushing and spindle clean and parallel. If I can't drill the bushing I'll just make a new one.
    I'll take some pictures to make my posts clearer.
    Ozzie

  13. #13
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie34231 View Post
    Hi Ian,
    The construction of your unit sounds much different from mine.
    In my unit there is a single bushing, the length of the housing, hard steel. In the bore of this bushing there is a centered undercut about an inch wide, maybe 0.100" deep. So, in mine a single bushing does the job of the two on yours. The top outside of the bushing has two short V-shaped grooves, offset from each other by about 22 degrees, one running length-wise, the other radially. on the top of the housing, in places that match the bushing, there are set screws, one directly on top, the other toward the rear. The combination of the screws and grooves are surely to lock the bushing in a very specific position, and I assume to press it against the air inlet hole, so that a hole in the bushing is aligned with the one in the housing.
    The manual, (bought separately), goes to great lengths about how to clean the unit without clogging the air inlet, even suggesting leaving the air supply on while cleaning so as not to block the passage. It says that once blocked the passage may be nearly impossible to unblock! So it is small. It is so small that I cannot see it. Like yours there is an air inlet pipe thread and presumably a concentric hole going through the housing, but no light passes through it, and inside the bore I cannot see any hole where it should be, or anywhere. There should be a matching hole in the bushing and I know the approximate location because of the locating screws. However I can not see or detect any hole inside or outside the bushing.
    There is some minor corrosion pitting on the outside of the bushing which might be camouflaging a hole, but even under 10X magnification I cannot see a hole. I cannot see a hole inside the bushing.
    I agree with you that the air escaping around the shaft should control the air flow, so why the tiny hole. What can its purpose be?
    Air going through a small hole would increase in velocity while in the hole. It would cool as it expands. So what? Maybe it was a temperature control scheme?
    Anyway, I think that the tiny hole is not needed to make the spindle float. I just need to get air through the housing and then through the bushing, and of course get bushing and spindle clean and parallel. If I can't drill the bushing I'll just make a new one.
    I'll take some pictures to make my posts clearer.
    Ozzie
    Hi Ozzie.........the latest news flash is.......the Weldon air spindle internals you described are the same as my one..........I inadvertently "remembered" the internals of it from a previous strip down and at the same time a strip down of my CUTTRMASTER T&C grinder air spindle and so confused the two when I "remembered" the construction.

    There appears to be a single long bush with a hard internal coating that appears to be hard chromed hence you finding it a hard finish.

    The good news is, the side hole goes all the way through the body casting with a 1/4" BSP thread and continuous into the bore.....that is without a small hole, just the 1/4" BSP hole.

    The long bush appears to be relieved either side of the hole for a distance of about 40mm in the middle..

    On my one there is also a 1/4" tapped hole in the top of the casting going down to the bore........what that is for I do not know..........it is also plugged with a screw in plastic plug.

    So the air entry has plenty of room to get to the centre of the bush where it can bleed out either end of the bush around the spindle.

    I think the side hole is for a handle with a ball on it and the top hole is for the air supply fitting.....both holes go to the bore.

    You would (if right handed) be working it with your left hand holding the knob protruding from the body to tilt it, while your right hand works the spindle in and out.

    By all accounts the holes are quite big to allow the air entry, not tiny ones as thought, so poke them clean with a piece of wire.
    Ian. .



    .

  14. #14
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Hi Ian and anyone else watching.
    After additional pondering and examining this Weldon tool and an attempt to open the air hole, I assured myself that there never was a hole through the housing, and as I said before I found no evidence of any hole in the bushing.
    It then occurred to me that perhaps this was a display model, distributed in a crippled fashion so as not to be sold. Be that the case or not I was wondering what the air path should look like. Toward that end I decided to look up the patent number displayed on the unit.
    Are you ready for this?
    The patent does NOT mention air, air cushion, or anything related to that. The unit was designed to do everything we know it to do, but the bushing and spindle were a lapped fit and finish. What looks like an air inlet is a place to attach the tilting handle. Evidently the air cushion idea/patent came later.
    I have not found the exact patent for the Weldon as we know it now.
    Ian, if yours has a patent number on it please relay it to me.
    I have made modifications to my unit to try to make it float. I still need to gather some fittings for a test.
    I'll follow with another post showing some pictures.

  15. #15
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Drilling through what I thought was the air inlet with a #53 drill, produced cast iron powder/chips; there never was a hole there. Try to drill the bushing was not possible, too hard. I ground an air passage, (not pretty), with my Dremel and a diamond cutoff wheel.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2196.jpg   IMG_2195.jpg   IMG_2203.jpg   IMG_2209.jpg  


  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie34231 View Post
    Drilling through what I thought was the air inlet with a #53 drill, produced cast iron powder/chips; there never was a hole there. Try to drill the bushing was not possible, too hard. I ground an air passage, (not pretty), with my Dremel and a diamond cutoff wheel.
    Interesting what year was it patented? That is the base that I need for mine can you post a couple views of it please?

  17. #17
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Hi Tom,
    The patent is March 24, 1936.

  18. #18
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Here are a couple pics of the aux. base. It looks very generic could be mounted in any orientation.
    Most T&C grinders have ways to tilt the wheel in nearly any direction, so depending on what type wheel is being used, such a base might be overkill.
    Ozzie
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2197.jpg   IMG_2207.jpg   IMG_2198.jpg  

  19. #19
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Hi that's the same sub base I have on mine........there is a large nut and a stud in the middle of the casting that attaches the top section with the air bearing to the base.....you can see the tapped hole in the base in your first and second pics.

    The patent no. on mine is 2035163.

    Interesting thought that the device originally didn't work with air......without the air on mine the friction from the close fit makes it too imprecise to do real cutter grinding.........putting the air on and it floats like it's on ball races..

    When I looked down the bore in the body casting I can see what appears to be a section in the middle of the bush that has been cut back to make an undercut about 2mm deep and approx 40mm long...... the hole on the outside that you said was for the handle..........maybe it was/is, can't say for sure, but it does lead through to the middle section and so feeds the air to it.

    BTW......there are 2 holes in the body casting.(on mine)......one on top sealed with a plastic plug and one on the side that has the handle and combined air feed to it.

    The tilting effect on the sub base is so you can tilt the spindle back end up to do the end faces of end mills and slot drills.

    You can see this if you hold an end mill with the point away from you and see where the primary and secondary clearance angles on the end faces are.

    Using one of these air spindle devices means you don't use the table slides on a cutter grinder so they are locked.........it allows you to grind the OD and end faces of the cutter.

    If you go onto the USA EBAY site you can get hundreds of pics for Weldon devices that are up for sale......this will give you a more meaningful idea of how they look as they originally came in a case with 2 spindles etc.
    Ian.

  20. #20
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    Re: Weldon air spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzie34231 View Post
    Drilling through what I thought was the air inlet with a #53 drill, produced cast iron powder/chips; there never was a hole there. Try to drill the bushing was not possible, too hard. I ground an air passage, (not pretty), with my Dremel and a diamond cutoff wheel.
    Hi Ozzie........I'm a bit puzzled mate........your first pic in post #15 shows the body of the spindle housing with a hole on the side and one on the top like mine........these should go through to the bore to attach the handle and feed the air etc

    Is this a pic of the actual bushing that fits inside the body housing?

    If it is, all you need to have is an undercut 2mm deep X 40mm long inside the middle of the bush with a hole through to the outside to meet the hole in the body casting side.

    I can't understand what the last 2 pics are........they appears to be the bush with a number of cuts in it at 90 deg..........they would probably be so that when the bush is in the housing the side and top holes will align with those grooves........but there also must be an undercut in the bore too.
    Ian.

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