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IndustryArena Forum > CAM Software > Autodesk CAM > Autodesk killing more products
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  1. #1
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    Jul 2005
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    Autodesk killing more products

    Autodesk has announced that Artcam will end later this year. https://www.cadnauseam.com/2018/02/0...for-customers/ will take you to Steve Johnsons blog on this with details. It has been my belief that Delcam products were probably going to be immune to this sort of back stabbing but I guess not. I figure HSM is headed this way and Autodesk will force future users into Fusion360. Can I prove this no. Do I think it will happen in time? Yes unless Anagnost is fired and Autodesk recants from their current direction I believe this is coming too. Soon Autodesk will be into it's 11th down income period in a row and desperate people will do desperate things to try and make this failing subscription only model work. So you say you have a perpetual seat and are safe? Perpetual support for Artcam also ends on 11-1-2018. My last day as a paying customer was 12-15 2017 and not one more dime to these people.

  2. #2
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    Oct 2010
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    171

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    I could be way off base, but IMO, eventually all CAD and CAM software will go to a subscription model.

    I believe that large companies (e.g. Direct-TV, Verizon, Adobe, etc) love the subscription model. It ends up producing a "known" (and somewhat locked-in) revenue stream, rather than one based on how the sales force and advertising teams are doing (not to mention the whims of the economy).

    With the insane prices that some CAD / CAM vendors charge for annual "maintenance" fees (which usually means a new version of the software that the customer base ends up trouble-shooting for them), not to mention outright software costs that are in the stratosphere for some "brands"... I believe that the subscription model may be welcomed by a lot of shops.

    As far as the particulars of Autodesk, you know far more about it than I do. The above is more in reference to the general thoughts about subscription-based cad and cam.

    jmho
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  3. #3
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    Feb 2007
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    4553

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Lapuser,

    Vectric Aspire is always a viable option!

    Products - Aspire

    Have a most awesome evening!

    Jeff...
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  4. #4

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    I'm in the construction industry but manage our IT services and almost all of our software has gone to subscription based models. For better or worse, they see the dollar signs and start going that way. Comcast and Verizon paved the way. People are dumb enough to pay for cable TV, meanwhile it shoves commercials down your throat. In fact, that's the norm. It used to be the commercials were there to pay for the free to consumers broadcast. Fusion360 already has built in sponsored services, wait until those start getting pushed harder. Until alternative products are made, the Netflix of the CAD/CAM world, this trend will continue. Sadly, I am a Fusion user myself, I actually quite like the software. The business model sucks though.

  5. #5
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    LOL.......I kicked the Foxtel advert intensive pay TV thing 5 years back due to the intensive add content and the repeats of the repeats that I was paying for.....bought a new 70" 3D TV and lots of DVDs with the (continued) savings..........nothing to do with Cad Cam, but the same thing in the end.........I hate the sucking sensation of a subscription service........I like to own the stuff I pay for.
    Ian.

  6. #6
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    Oct 2010
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    171

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    I personally look at it differently.

    I am... let's just call it "renting"... Fusion 360 which includes CAD and CAM, for a small fraction of the cost of what just the yearly maintenance fee is on many CAD and/or CAM programs.

    I like that Autodesk runs the translation for importing different formats in *their* cloud -- which "probably" means that the import translators are always up to date. (a big issue for me in the past if I stopped paying maintenance on a purchased software package).

    PM

  7. #7
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    Jul 2005
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    64

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    In the end just like pre cooked pre packaged meals that are convenient for the lazy it all costs more to arrive at the goal of being fed than cooking for yourself. I am going to guess that 75% or more of the people who approve of renting and convenience and the rest are under 35 and Autodesk is pinning it's future on them. I don't think they will succeed because even those who would rather Uber than own a car and live 8 to a rented house to afford it so they can not be tied down to anything and who fail to understand at the end of the day they spent more over the years and have NOTHING to show for it. You like the way Autodesk does things good and I am going to watch as the suckers get reeled in because cool and cloud and do it on iPhones will in time not be exciting when cost creep sets in. Most of you fail to understand that the typical CAD CAM users I see in established businesses use the same software for many years and fully understand rental costs a lot more over time and if for some reason you decide to stop paying rental means you stop working. Perpetual means you work for the next five or six or more years if you wish and pay nothing. You are starting a career at the age of 20 something just like many of us did and many of you will end up using the same software for decades. Because you embrace this method of financial slavery you will however pay a lot more than we did and have nothing to show for it because unless you keep paying forever you can't even utilize your own created intellectual property. But in twenty years even though you will have spent twice as much as we did still there is that up front cost savings and I guess that is all that counts for the short sighted.

    OK you rented Artcam and now what? Perpetual seat holders will work for the next 10 years if they want to. You however will be out of luck but it was cheap up front right? Lets say Autodesk goes out of business or because of desperation starts axing programs left and right just as they are now. How precisely is rental a glamorous cloud cool option for the trendy going to work out when , pick a date, the kill code goes out and you are left with nothing to show for your money. How are you going to resist price gouging when you have given all control over to the evil empire and you have to pay to play? Who really owns your intellectual creations when you have to keep renting them back from an extortionist?

    "LOL.......I kicked the Foxtel advert intensive pay TV thing 5 years back due to the intensive add content and the repeats of the repeats that I was paying for" says it all. When Autodesk tricks or forces enough users into slavery the end of yearly improvements is at hand. The nickle and dimming to death of customers begins, as it has with Autodesk already, where vital bits of programs are removed and then become available for an extra fee and long time bugs are not fixed and if you doubt this research just how much R&D and vital staff at Autodesk has and is being cut. Before I left Inventor Pro HSM I had a look at downloads because I knew I would need to snag them before I left. I was horrified to see how many ancillary programs that used to be a part of Inventor had been removed and were now cost +. Two thirds were just gone. They were however available as new Industry Collections at +++++++++++ per year and even if you had the right to access 15 programs you could only do so with two at a time.

    I have a big bag of buttery popcorn and I am sitting back to watch and listen to the howls of outrage that will be coming in the near future from the liberated new wave CADCAM users who discover belatedly they have converted to slavery far greater than having to save one time for up front costs.

    Aspire by the way is from what I have been told simpler to learn and use than Artcam and the people who started it left Delcam. I suspect more will follow and while Aspire will improve by leaps and bounds rental only Artcam will just die. Happy renting all!!

  8. #8
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    Mar 2003
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    35538

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Look at something like AutoCAD, which was ±$4000 and $500-$700 year for maintenance, which kept you current.
    Subscription is about $1700/year.

    So, for the first 3 years, it's about even. But after that, subscription costs you $1000 more per year.

    I "locked in" to Fusion 360 Ultimate for $300/year for life. So far, I've spent $900 and got nothing more than the free users.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  9. #9

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    The cloud feature of Fusion is probably the best part of the software. I can work on a drawing at work. Finish it in my home office. Then I can walk out to the shop and do the CAM while sitting in front of my machining and looking at my tools and materials. No need to for intranet servers or extraneous hardware, I haven't accidentally machined an old version of a part since I moved to Fusion. That's additional value in avoided lost time and material right there. Hell, I've bellied up to the bar and drawn parts while drinking beer, when I got home those drawings were already there.

    I purchased a Fusion360 license for use at my job. Our annual software expenditure is in the $20k range, the core of which is all subscription based. That $300 for the Fusion license is a drop in the bucket. For my home business however, that only makes maybe $25k a year, that becomes more expensive. Especially so if I want fourth axis (I do). Fifth axis, there isn't CAM software that I can afford with that capability. Personally, I prefer to own software indefinitely, but in the business world a big part of our operations are streamlined through software so it makes sense to pay the fees.

    All of this in mind, and I see it every single day, pirated software exists for a reason. It's not always for the better, but there can be instances where the markets are so far out of reach for some sectors that a legitimate argument can be made for pirated software. I think this is partly why the Fusion subscription exists the way it does. They are trying to tap into the sector that normally couldn't afford professional grade CAD/CAM.

  10. #10
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    Oct 2010
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    171

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    lapuser,

    I apparently fall into the <25% group, as I am 61 years old and own everything I have, but still feel that an approach like Fusion 360 is valid for me, and possibly many others.

    I personally don’t view the subscription or cloud-based business model as conspiracy to fleece the machining world — I believe it’s just an alternative approach to providing a service (CL_MotoTech outlined some of those).

    If not enough people “subscribe” to the “rent software” business model, other companies will see an opportunity and offer outright purchases. Heck… for those of us that are old(er), we can surely remember spending a comparatively *large* amount of money to purchase very rudimentary 2D CAD software and rudimentary 2.5D CAM software. Many software packages (whether rented or owned) are a bargain compared to those days!

    It’s my opinion that in the next 5-10 years, we will see huge a huge increase in the capabilities of machine controls, and some (much?) of what we do now in a CAM system will get off-loaded to the machine. I believe the first area where we’ll see this is in collision avoidance, and that will probably be followed by better/more CAM features built right into the controls.

  11. #11
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    Nov 2012
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    145
    Quote Originally Posted by precisionmetal View Post
    lapuser,

    I apparently fall into the <25% group, as I am 61 years old and own everything I have, but still feel that an approach like Fusion 360 is valid for me, and possibly many others.

    I personally don’t view the subscription or cloud-based business model as conspiracy to fleece the machining world — I believe it’s just an alternative approach to providing a service (CL_MotoTech outlined some of those).

    If not enough people “subscribe” to the “rent software” business model, other companies will see an opportunity and offer outright purchases. Heck… for those of us that are old(er), we can surely remember spending a comparatively *large* amount of money to purchase very rudimentary 2D CAD software and rudimentary 2.5D CAM software. Many software packages (whether rented or owned) are a bargain compared to those days!

    It’s my opinion that in the next 5-10 years, we will see huge a huge increase in the capabilities of machine controls, and some (much?) of what we do now in a CAM system will get off-loaded to the machine. I believe the first area where we’ll see this is in collision avoidance, and that will probably be followed by better/more CAM features built right into the controls.
    I'm 64 and like fusion it does all I need so far as I'm a newbie to cnc and I'll try the 4th axis later although I hear it costs $1500.00 for symotanious movement but figure thats not too bad seeing as I bought a Haas TM1P pretty much loaded, that would be like buying a Ferrari just to look at!

  12. #12
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Hi.....I don't have parts to make or have to work as I'm retired and entered the CNC world to learn how the other side operates.

    I can see how the industry is trying to go with the flow as they interpret the future trend......making a mistake can be disastrous in that world.

    The point is, if you are earning your crust by making parts with complicated tool paths, then you need to be on top of your act big time or the next actor will get the part.

    If it's going to be a cloud thing and you have to be a subscriber then that is what it's going to be.......trying to be a one man show means you may own the software but if it was good 20 years ago then 10 to 1 it's so far out of wack now you won't make parts in competition.

    Software will come and go and there will always be someone who decides the time is ripe to make some more software to replace the expensive stuff and then you are back in the circle waiting for the next update that the new system needs to be up with the big boys before they too go into the cloud mode and you're back at the beginning again..

    Mach 3 is affordable software that allows all the new aspiring CNCérs to get into the act free for small time use.

    Once you have it on your computer it will always be there...........imagine if, for a "small" but continuous payment....... like $10 a year..... you can only access Mach 4 from the cloud and Mach 3 was no longer available......who would want old Mach 3 when you could get Mach 4 with all the latest upgrades...........I doubt many, if any, Mach users would have their computers always on line as many only have the bare bones stuff on their computer without virus software.

    A lot depends on how much work you're doing and your yearly turnover.
    Ian.

  13. #13
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    Jul 2005
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    64

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    I believe in choice. If someone wants to buy rental fine. If anyone thinks the web is secure and their IP is safe go there. If you don't have any confidentiality agreements in place with customers you are golden for letting your data hang out in the hacker zone. Autodesk has been sneaky and underhanded fro the beginning on all this though and it seems every other month or so the promises they made are broken. My favorite one is stock up on your perpetual seats now while you can and be protected for the future. A few months later Anagnost is telling investors that Autodesk believes only in the subscription model and that perpetual will be phased out. Google the horror stories about huge increases large commercial accounts are getting. Look at the price increases for perpetual seats that are slated to go up 32% in two years to try to force traditional seats into being unaffordable and who knows what sort of increase is in the pipeline after two years.

    "I'm 64 and like fusion it does all I need so far as I'm a newbie to cnc and I'll try the 4th axis later although I hear it costs $1500.00 for symotanious movement but figure thats not too bad seeing as I bought a Haas TM1P pretty much loaded, that would be like buying a Ferrari just to look at!"

    Yes Fusion is for you. But go here https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/movin...tion/bd-p/2017 and see what people whose life blood depends on the creation of IP and the protection of IP and the ability to plan long term on expenditures and software longevity. Real companies with millions tied up to one man serious shops and read what they have to say.

    Autodesk could have simply offered both ways instead of deciding to offer subs only and then lie about what is going to be while they change the goal post every other month. They have malign intent and so far the freebie or hobbiest /student market appears to be the only groups that think this is the right way for Autodesk to proceed and the inevitable direct all will be going in. Then when you discover your IP has value and you earn a living with it and have employees and contracts you grow up and find out what the people on the "Moving to Subscription Forum" posters are talking about.

    "I can see how the industry is trying to go with the flow as they interpret the future trend......making a mistake can be disastrous in that world." No Autodesk is trying to force a trend that so far has not worked and will not this time. Manufacturing is different than editing pictures. They have now had 10 down income quarters in a row in spite of fools bidding up their stock prices. And in the mean time the underhanded ways they are going about it tell you all you need to know about their regards for you and the idea of willing buyer willing seller.

    "Once you have it on your computer it will always be there...........imagine if, for a "small" but continuous payment....... like $10 a year..... you can only access Mach 4 from the cloud and Mach 3 was no longer available......who would want old Mach 3 when you could get Mach 4 with all the latest upgrades...........I doubt many, if any, Mach users would have their computers always on line as many only have the bare bones stuff on their computer without virus software" My CAD and CAM workstations are not allowed to go online for security reasons. You can't be hacked if you don't go online. An employee may steal your data with a flash drive or your PC stolen but you can take easy methods to prevent that. Any program that forces you online for any reason for any period of time is a program forbidden to many companies who have confidentiality agreements in place. Read the TOS and EULA from Autodesk as I have and see for yourself. They guarantee nothing to be safe online nor do they cover damages from being forced online and then getting hacked. Any Autodesk subscription product usage means any confidentiality agreement you have was broken by you and all you can do is hope you never get hacked and caught as a result because you can kiss your hinny goodbye when that happens. But is was cool interconnected while it lasted wasn't it?

  14. #14
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Hi, this trend to online access started some time ago when you got downloads electronically instead of a hard copy or a CD or DVD......true it's much cheaper that way but most copied it to a CD etc when received.

    Now it's the cloud ........years ago I was told someone on the other side of the World would operate a machine from the other side of the World one day without physically being near the machine.........how prophetic can you get.......the Internet has changed the way we live and think.

    If Autodesk are going to break up their offerings so that the user pays according to the density of the package, then on a sliding scale the cost of running a business will also escalate on a sliding scale.

    If the basic no frills package is cheap enough for the occasional small time user to indulge in then that might be a good trend.....you would get only what you need for as longs as you needed it and the latest version too.....as long as it's affordable and reliable.

    I can see that trend being an open season on the providers of software to compete or disappear for ever........who cares then if they hold the program in the cloud....nobody needs an out of date software package even if it's a freebie.
    Ian.

  15. #15
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    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    I'm sure most people here know this, but on the off-chance that someone doesn't....

    Fusion 360 is installed and runs on your local machine. Only your project files are stored in their cloud.

    I believe the program can be used "offline" for something like 30 days without a connection.

    PM

  16. #16
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    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionmetal View Post

    I believe the program can be used "offline" for something like 30 days without a connection.

    PM
    It's 180 days now.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  17. #17
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    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    I believe it's still only possible to save a file to the cloud, correct Gerry?

    That makes the program very usable for learning, but not very usable for doing actual work?

    Not sure on this, can you clarify?

    thx
    PM

  18. #18
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    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionmetal View Post
    I believe it's still only possible to save a file to the cloud, correct Gerry?

    That makes the program very usable for learning, but not very usable for doing actual work?

    Not sure on this, can you clarify?

    thx
    PM
    You save to the cloud when online otherwise it saves local to you go online, you can ofcourse export the file out of fusion and not even save it in fusion, If you have a team hub it save's to both cloud and team hub, a teamhub is local and cloud storage and part of anycad.
    http://danielscnc.webs.com/

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  19. #19
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    Sep 2006
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    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Hi....what if your computer goes off line due to the modem and NBN black box being disabled due to a thunderstorm as mine did for a whole week 2 weeks ago......my computer wasn't even switched on at the time.....the modem and NBN box got zapped through the Foxtell cable as we are not on fibre yet.

    My ISP people sent a service guy out to do a test and replace the modem etc......my computer ehernet connection was also knocked out and I had to replace it with an ethernet plug in card.

    What could I have done in the meantime to run the mill as there was no internet access to get to the files in the cloud.....,,,,,,does this mean that you can store Fusion cad/cam files elsewhere....who needs the cloud then.
    Ian..

  20. #20
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    Oct 2010
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    171

    Re: Autodesk killing more products

    Probably the best thing to do is keep a local copy of your current/important projects. You can just export as .f3d (native fusion) so you always have a copy on your computer.

    I do that regularly with projects that I absolutely do not want to lose my work on.

    PM

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