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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Syil Products > Syil X4 with blown spindle controller
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  1. #1
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Hey All,

    I am a noob to the electronics end of CNC. Please bear with me if I am asking the wrong question, or asking the right questions wrongly!

    I have a Syil x4, 2013 model, 110V mill. It has never been run. I finally got my shop built so I fired it up using Mach 3 and spare PC I had. No sooner had I started it up than I heard a loud pop in the cabinet. I noticed the 20A fuse in the spindle controller board was fried. So I put in a new fuse, fired it up and POP again. The third time I tried it I was looking in the cabinet and saw a flash. It turns out that 2 of the capacitors on the spindle controller board had blown in half and they were arcing across each other.

    Kind of a bummer on a machine that was never run before.

    Syil America doesn't have a board, I can't get in touch with Charter Oak Automation. Jeff at Syil America recommended DMM in Canada. Michael at DMM (very helpful!) recommended trying to get either a generic spindle controller from a place like Automation Direct, or maybe a whole new controller in the form of a Centroid Acorn system.

    Have any of you ever replaced an X4 spindle controller with generic off the shelf part? If so, how do I figure out what I need?

    Has anyone here done a complete Acorn type upgrade? If so, I'd love to know how it went and how much you spent.

    Thanks for any insight,

    CE

  2. #2
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    The blown capacitors

    Attachment 389610

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    7

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by lockbuilder View Post
    Hey All,

    I am a noob to the electronics end of CNC. Please bear with me if I am asking the wrong question, or asking the right questions wrongly!

    I have a Syil x4, 2013 model, 110V mill. It has never been run. I finally got my shop built so I fired it up using Mach 3 and spare PC I had. No sooner had I started it up than I heard a loud pop in the cabinet. I noticed the 20A fuse in the spindle controller board was fried. So I put in a new fuse, fired it up and POP again. The third time I tried it I was looking in the cabinet and saw a flash. It turns out that 2 of the capacitors on the spindle controller board had blown in half and they were arcing across each other.

    Kind of a bummer on a machine that was never run before.

    Syil America doesn't have a board, I can't get in touch with Charter Oak Automation. Jeff at Syil America recommended DMM in Canada. Michael at DMM (very helpful!) recommended trying to get either a generic spindle controller from a place like Automation Direct, or maybe a whole new controller in the form of a Centroid Acorn system.

    Have any of you ever replaced an X4 spindle controller with generic off the shelf part? If so, how do I figure out what I need?

    Has anyone here done a complete Acorn type upgrade? If so, I'd love to know how it went and how much you spent.

    Thanks for any insight,

    CE
    I have a 2008 x4 plus, I'm about to have to gut it for lack of serviceability also. I've got some quotes on motors from China, but really haven't worked anything out yet. Do you have a Rev number and board number?

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

  4. #4
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    jsnsykes, The board is marked:

    HONCAR HBLC-1100-300H-S008(A)
    Powermainboard
    VER 1.0 2012.05.18

    I'd also be really curious as to what route you will be taking with your machine. Again, total noob here, but aren't motors and such available here in the states that could be replacements for yours?

    Thanks for the reply.

    CE

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    7

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by lockbuilder View Post
    jsnsykes, The board is marked:

    HONCAR HBLC-1100-300H-S008(A)
    Powermainboard
    VER 1.0 2012.05.18

    I'd also be really curious as to what route you will be taking with your machine. Again, total noob here, but aren't motors and such available here in the states that could be replacements for yours?

    Thanks for the reply.

    CE
    Yes, many options are available. I will likely fix my issues with the spindle board by bypassing the interlock, or dumbing it down somehow, and get a centroid acorn board to handle the rest. Thus upgrading the entire system, and putting one more step between myself and my reliance on Syil to help (because they dont/cant)

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

  6. #6
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by jsnsykes View Post
    Yes, many options are available. I will likely fix my issues with the spindle board by bypassing the interlock, or dumbing it down somehow, and get a centroid acorn board to handle the rest. Thus upgrading the entire system, and putting one more step between myself and my reliance on Syil to help (because they dont/cant)

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
    So the Acorn board doesn't control the spindle right? It just has the 0-10 volt output for the spindle driver you choose. Do I have that right? So even if I went with an Acorn control, I'd still have to get myself a spindle controller.

    Also, what is an interlock?

    It would be cool if I could just find a spindle controller that was compatible with the rest of the Syil electronics, I just have no clue how to figure that out.

    Again thank you,

    CE

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4553

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Pretty much any two horsepower VFD should be more than sufficient to run your spindle motor.

    eBay has many choices, Hitachi makes a very good unit, this model requires 220 single phase.

    See attached link:

    Hitachi NES1-015SB with Operator NES1-OP 2HP 200-240volt also Phase Converter | eBay

    Jeff..
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  8. #8
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    Pretty much any two horsepower VFD should be more than sufficient to run your spindle motor.

    eBay has many choices, Hitachi makes a very good unit, this model requires 220 single phase.

    See attached link:

    Hitachi NES1-015SB with Operator NES1-OP 2HP 200-240volt also Phase Converter | eBay

    Jeff..
    Jeff,

    That is a very affordable unit too, which is nice. My mill is currently a 110V machine. Does that mean my spindle motor will only run on 110?

    I'd rather have a 220v machine anyhow. It would be great if this would work!

    Thank you,

    CE

  9. #9
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    Pretty much any two horsepower VFD should be more than sufficient to run your spindle motor.

    eBay has many choices, Hitachi makes a very good unit, this model requires 220 single phase.

    See attached link:

    Hitachi NES1-015SB with Operator NES1-OP 2HP 200-240volt also Phase Converter | eBay

    Jeff..
    I just noticed that unit is a 3 phase output too. It doesn't seem like that would work with a 110v single phase machine. Am I wrong here?

    Thanks,

    CE

  10. #10
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    Feb 2007
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    4553

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Take a look at the spindle motor and see if it has any specs so that we can determine what voltage the spindle motor is.

    Jeff...
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  11. #11
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    Feb 2007
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    4553

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    If the output on the original spindle drive has U V W terminals that the spindle motor is connected to then the motor is three phase.
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  12. #12
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    Mar 2007
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    2083

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    the blown components are NTC (Negative Temperature Coefficient) thermistors not capacitors

    if the 3 components RT1 , RT2 & RT3 are all the same device you should be able to read the part number to order replacements

    they are used to reduce the switch on surge current

    if you search for the data sheet you may find the cold resistance may be 10 ohms and as the thermisters heat up the drop to a fraction of an ohm


    John

    PS
    depending on how long it has been since the VFD was last powered
    its possible the electrolytic capacitors needed reforming and would of resulted in a large leakage current when you powered your machine

  13. #13
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    Oct 2013
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    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    If the output on the original spindle drive has U V W terminals that the spindle motor is connected to then the motor is three phase.
    Jeff, the output on the drive does indeed have U V and W terminals. Also PE N and L. I'll pull the covers later on to try and get the spindle motor information. Thank you!

  14. #14
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by john-100 View Post
    the blown components are NTC (Negative Temperature Coefficient) thermistors not capacitors

    if the 3 components RT1 , RT2 & RT3 are all the same device you should be able to read the part number to order replacements

    they are used to reduce the switch on surge current

    if you search for the data sheet you may find the cold resistance may be 10 ohms and as the thermisters heat up the drop to a fraction of an ohm


    John

    PS
    depending on how long it has been since the VFD was last powered
    its possible the electrolytic capacitors needed reforming and would of resulted in a large leakage current when you powered your machine
    John,

    You learned me something new! Thank you.

    It looks like the NTC's have 5D-20 on them. I went ahead and ordered 3 of them to try. After all if this unit is toast, then there is no harm in trying a few new thermistors on it.

    The machine hadn't been powered up in 4 years, so yeah, long time. What is reforming? Is that something I do?

    Thanks again!

    CE

  15. #15
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    Feb 2007
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    4553

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Thermistors are not very expensive to replace however a shorted IGBT may also be the reason for the excessive overcurrent damage.

    Jeff...
    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

  16. #16
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Quote Originally Posted by jalessi View Post
    Thermistors are not very expensive to replace however a shorted IGBT may also be the reason for the excessive overcurrent damage.

    Jeff...
    Jeff,

    I just looked up "testing an IGBT" and it looks like I could do so with my ohmmeter. BUT, I don't know where to find it! Is it part of the driver board or is it a lone component in the machine. Or is this impossible to tell without looking at it.

    Guys, I really appreciate all this help. This board and thread are giving me confidence that I can work all this out eventually!

    CE

  17. #17
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    Mar 2007
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    2083

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    depending on the design you may not see six IGBT
    some VFD's have the six IGBT inside a single moulded encapsulation with 5 high current terminals
    (2 DC in & 3 outputs to a 3 phase motor ) and 12 low current terminals for the drive to the 6 IGBT gates

    electrolytic capacitors depend on a thin oxide layer on the aluminium foil that forms the anode (positive electrode)
    over time the oxide layer deteriorates when the capacitor is not powered
    so after several years the capacitor will go short circuit when you first power the equipment

    I have only reformed the HT electrolytic capacitors in a couple of valve (tube) radios from the 40's and 50's
    but basically you need to connect a variable voltage current limited supply across the capacitors

    starting at a low voltage and as the leakage current drops slowly increasing the voltage until you have reached the maximum for the capacitor

    for a VFD without the motor being connected
    the ideal way to reform the capacitors would be to use a 0 to 300 or 400V DC current limited bench power supply across the capacitors

    alternatively use a variac or multi tapped transformer with a set of wire wound resistors
    to apply a current limited variable voltage to the VFD mains in terminals

    my initial tests for a VFD that is normally is powered by a single phase 250V supply in the UK
    I would start at 30V AC at the mains input terminals and increase it in 20 to 30V steps until the full mains voltage is applied
    with a 20K 10W resistor to limit the current
    or for a 120V VFD use 10 to 20V steps

    the question is what is value in uF and voltage is the capacitors used on your VFD ?
    and does it have several 400V capacitors in parallel or a combination of 200 V capacitors in series & parallel ?

    ( in PC's ATX power supplies you find two 200V capacitors in series to form a 400V capacitor in a circuit that either
    rectifies 240V AC to produce 340V DC
    or forms a rectifer / voltage doubler to produce 340VDc from 120V AC )

    photos of the board will help

    John

  18. #18
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    Oct 2013
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    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    John,

    Will take and post some videos of the board today. It sounds like reforming the capacitors is a bit out of my wheelhouse! I wish I had your electronic acumen. But I'll keep at it. Maybe one day

    Thank you,

    CE

  19. #19
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    Oct 2013
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    36

    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Attached are a few pics of the spindle motor and the controller board.

    If anyone can tell me anything about the motor (phases, what type of controller would work, etc) That'd be great. I'm also curious if I have a IGBT I can test in here. Thanks,

  20. #20
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    Re: Syil X4 with blown spindle controller

    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.

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