[wizard]

I checked out what they do and it gave me a few good ideas I appreciate the feedback!

I don't think Im going to have the volume for mill run that is for sure.

That is the real killer when you look at alternative construction methods. The low volume though is what makes DIY machines so cost effective. I wandered through the local hardware store the other day looking at contractor saws. You can certainly see a variety of mass production techniques on these machines. Unfortunately die casting machine frame parts isn't likely to be cost effective for the volumes seen with CNC routers.

this was a personal project that my company believes there is a market for I cant disagree with the market as I have had a lot of great feedback from other sources,customers and vendors all very interested in the idea of being able to put a CNC router in there garage.

Well you are in the right place as far as people interested in such things. The tab and slot people certainly have a different approach to sheet metal construction, what i find interesting is the claim of low distortion. Im not sure if the stiffness is there but it seems like a technique worth the experimentation.

By the way im not sure how far the patents go, if tab and slots have any. Since they basically are just doing self jigging assembly i would imagine they would be limited. However it is best to check with a professional when it comes to patents.

[mactec54]

Okay got a semi complete 3d rendering.

Let me know what you guys think!

You say it is a tad different, nothing that has not been done before

Here is a sheet metal fabricated machine that has been around for a while, you have the same concept, I believe that this is a better build than where you are at, both of these construction methods are limited to light cutting with low machine performance

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...53486-cnc.html

[kodidavis29]

You say it is a tad different, nothing that has not been done before

Here is a sheet metal fabricated machine that has been around for a while, you have the same concept, I believe that this is a better build than where you are at, both of these construction methods are limited to light cutting with low machine performance


https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...53486-cnc.html

I find the word tad to be semi similar but yet still different. As you can see with the oltrogge build. He still uses extruded aluminum as I’m very aware of the design I wanted to take a different approach. The method of manufacturing is also very different. His being bent steel mine being mortise and tenon style aluminum or steel. as my design is similar its still a "Tad" different.

[kodidavis29]

Alright So I went ahead and added some full length gussets on the inside also I am considering adding a backbone if you will to the side of the gantry's.

see attached. I am taking into consideration everyone opinion/constructive criticism.

as I am a tad new to posting on the forum I did not anticipate so much criticism to the design style I choose.

I am wondering if it is the lack of "Shown Experience in the community"

This at some points provided doubt to my build but after doing some load testing on aluminum and the design joints I am confident this machine will do what I intend it to do.

However stay tuned in the future because said doubts gives me the idea to build a machine to do what the community obviously wants for my next build. Lets here what that is? (Envelope, Materials, Machine properties Etc.)

However I will carry on with this build and everyone will have to see where I end up.

Thanks to all who have viewed my post and have gave me some insight.

[ger21]

The weakest points of the design by far are the gantry sides, and your choice of V rollers for linear motion.

The few hundred dollars extra for linear rails like Hiwins is well worth the money.

[kodidavis29]

The weakest points of the design by far are the gantry sides, and your choice of V rollers for linear motion.

The few hundred dollars extra for linear rails like Hiwins is well worth the money.

Yea I agree with you I am going to either do a double gantry plate or do a brace for the gantry sides.

as far as the hiwins I ordered a set and will be working on machining a adapter plate to mount them to the sides and to the gantry.

as far as Z I think I will go hiwins for weight on both options. I already have one kit sold to a close by shop and they do not want the hiwins because all they will be cutting is foam for fiberglass/carbon fiber work.

[mactec54]

I find the word tad to be semi similar but yet still different. As you can see with the oltrogge build. He still uses extruded aluminum as I’m very aware of the design I wanted to take a different approach. The method of manufacturing is also very different. His being bent steel mine being mortise and tenon style aluminum or steel. as my design is similar its still a "Tad" different.

This was only one example, there are quite a few others that have used the same, mortise and tenon style build, with no extrusion used, for the same type of construction so it is not new, or different in any way as per your construction

[kodidavis29]

This was only one example, there are quite a few others that have used the same, mortise and tenon style build, with no extrusion used, for the same type of construction so it is not new, or different in any way as per your construction

What bobs CNC? made out of wood. please link something of greater similarities. I am not trying to "re invent the wheel" but to me it is a tad different but even if it wasn't it is only a thread title and my choice as to what I call it.

As I am not looking to argue about my design and its differences to everything out there on the market. Im looking for feedback on what I am doing and giving people like myself a chance to see the struggles and challenges I face as I complete a build for myself and possibly others.

[1Jumper10]

Dont sweat it Kodidavis. Mactec54 offers very little helpful advice and always with his highly opinionated point of view. Ger21 has offered helpful advice to all who ask and has helped me several times personally. You would do well to listen carefully to him. You appear to have access to equipment that most DIY builders would love to have so you've got that going for you. It would probably be a good thing to just pause for a couple days and assess what you are trying to accomplish with this build and then evaluate your design to see if will perform how you expect it to when its done. If all you want to cut is foam, then a high speed light weight build may be in order. I would not be happy with those limitations but, that's just me. Some good design advice would be to design in reverse. Start at the bed, then cutting bit, then spindle, then Z-axis, Gantry, Y axis all the way back to your computer. Each design decision is made to support the requirements of the element before it. For example, you want to cut hardwood at 250 IPM with a 1/2" bit and also perform well cutting 3D parts; this means at least a 3hp spindle with a fast Z-axis. When you know how much mass your moving with the Z-axis then you can size the other axes accordingly. And it just builds from there.

In the end you can design and build any machine you want since its your money. The members of this have your best interest at heart and they see some things that they know are not going to be satisfactory. We're just trying to steer you in the right direction.

[mactec54]

What bobs CNC? made out of wood. please link something of greater similarities. I am not trying to "re invent the wheel" but to me it is a tad different but even if it wasn't it is only a thread title and my choice as to what I call it.

As I am not looking to argue about my design and its differences to everything out there on the market. Im looking for feedback on what I am doing and giving people like myself a chance to see the struggles and challenges I face as I complete a build for myself and possibly others.

You asked for comments as to what those looking thought

If you are thinking of selling to others, most want to be able to mill aluminum not just wood and plastic, the construction the way you have it, is not up to doing a good job at milling aluminum

It's hard to tell what your vision is as using V-rollers and unsupported rails is a step back in router design, these SBR linear rails ( snip below ) are much better than what you are using, even this type of linear rail most have moved away from, and are using THK or Hiwin type linear rails, there are many different brand names for linear rails, not all are equal in quality though

The basic frame does not matter that much, ( Your Base ) even your plywood prototype would work, with a few more ribs, the Gantry structure and Z axes is what has to be very well built

So in away you are reinventing, what other builders did in the past, hopping for a better result that is not going to happen

[kodidavis29]

You asked for comments as to what those looking thought

If you are thinking of selling to others, most want to be able to mill aluminum not just wood and plastic, the construction the way you have it, is not up to doing a good job at milling aluminum

It's hard to tell what your vision is as using V-rollers and unsupported rails is a step back in router design, these SBR linear rails ( snip below ) are much better than what you are using, even this type of linear rail most have moved away from, and are using THK or Hiwin type linear rails, there are many different brand names for linear rails, not all are equal in quality though

The basic frame does not matter that much, ( Your Base ) even your plywood prototype would work, with a few more ribs, the Gantry structure and Z axes is what has to be very well built

So in away you are reinventing, what other builders did in the past, hopping for a better result that is not going to happen

See now part of your post was constructive. That is what I am indeed looking for. I was aware of the linear rails before I designed this and my full on intention was to make this machine convertible to them for whoever wants to by them.

you are taking pieces of my posts and not the whole thing. I discussed in the beginning wanting to make them adaptable to linear rails.

my goals for this build have been slightly tweaked however the start of the project they all are basic.

1. Make a machine that is sturdy but very easy to construct.
2. Make a machine that is attractive to a money buyer or someone who knows absolutely nothing about them but wants one that he can show off and say he has. ( we all know this guy.)
3. Make a machine that is semi-interchangeable to needs and wants for upgrades.
4. Make something a TAD different then what is out there.
5. Make something that can be manufactured with no post processing.

As I work through the details and try things I am certain I will LEARN a lot of things I shouldn't do. however I am sure by the end of it I will have something that I can say I personally will be proud of and with the help of everyone on here I will be thankful.

[kodidavis29]

Dont sweat it Kodidavis. Mactec54 offers very little helpful advice and always with his highly opinionated point of view. Ger21 has offered helpful advice to all who ask and has helped me several times personally. You would do well to listen carefully to him. You appear to have access to equipment that most DIY builders would love to have so you've got that going for you. It would probably be a good thing to just pause for a couple days and assess what you are trying to accomplish with this build and then evaluate your design to see if will perform how you expect it to when its done. If all you want to cut is foam, then a high speed light weight build may be in order. I would not be happy with those limitations but, that's just me. Some good design advice would be to design in reverse. Start at the bed, then cutting bit, then spindle, then Z-axis, Gantry, Y axis all the way back to your computer. Each design decision is made to support the requirements of the element before it. For example, you want to cut hardwood at 250 IPM with a 1/2" bit and also perform well cutting 3D parts; this means at least a 3hp spindle with a fast Z-axis. When you know how much mass your moving with the Z-axis then you can size the other axes accordingly. And it just builds from there.

In the end you can design and build any machine you want since its your money. The members of this have your best interest at heart and they see some things that they know are not going to be satisfactory. We're just trying to steer you in the right direction.

Thank you for the uplifting comment. I only posted on this site to get the feedback. harsh or not I know for my first build I wasn't going to get everything right. at this point I wouldn't be supersized if I put it all together and decided a complete redesign. the most important thing for me is that I am going to follow through and have a working machine in the end. again this was designed for me and my personal use. the company I work for wants to market it and as time has went on they know its going to take a few tries getting it right,

Thanks again!

[ger21]

While it may not seem like it, all the criticism you are getting is meant to be constructive.
Be aware that hobby CNC machines are not new, and the market is actually pretty crowded, in some respects. Cheap machines from China are everywhere. You can't compete with them on price, so you need to make a really good machine if you want to sell them.
And let your company know that they will be flooded with support calls if they plan on selling machines to new CNC users. And if they don't provide support, they'll get a poor reputation pretty quickly.

[kodidavis29]

While it may not seem like it, all the criticism you are getting is meant to be constructive.
Be aware that hobby CNC machines are not new, and the market is actually pretty crowded, in some respects. Cheap machines from China are everywhere. You can't compete with them on price, so you need to make a really good machine if you want to sell them.
And let your company know that they will be flooded with support calls if they plan on selling machines to new CNC users. And if they don't provide support, they'll get a poor reputation pretty quickly.

Oh believe me I know. its either criticism or watch me fail Id rather have criticism.
with respect to what you are saying my company is aware we did a very similar project just in a different market in the past and had a team assigned to it.
The owners of my company would be happy to support current customers because to them no job is complete until the customer is happy and stays happy.
we manufacture for nucular, military and automotive so quality is key in everything we do. if we are flooded with calls that in some case means we where flooded with sales.

so quick question If i shape the gantry sides as "T" would you think that would gain its side support. I am tossing around the Idea of that or cutting it out of thicker plate. also I think I will link the gantry beam with a triangle gusset.

[BrokenHorn]

so quick question If i shape the gantry sides as "T" would you think that would gain its side support. I am tossing around the Idea of that or cutting it out of thicker plate. also I think I will link the gantry beam with a triangle gusset.

A “T” design would be more effective per lb. Meaning you would have to add a lot of thickness to get the same benefit that a small T (backbone) would add. An I-beam, boxed or triangulated structure will add even more stiffness, but also cost. I think a triangulated support would look good with your design.

If you add a gusset between the gantry support and gantry beam, just make sure it doesn’t impede on your cutting area (from reduced clearance between gantry and cutting bed).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kodidavis29]

A “T” design would be more effective per lb. Meaning you would have to add a lot of thickness to get the same benefit that a small T (backbone) would add. An I-beam, boxed or triangulated structure will add even more stiffness, but also cost. I think a triangulated support would look good with your design.

If you add a gusset between the gantry support and gantry beam, just make sure it doesn’t impede on your cutting area (from reduced clearance between gantry and cutting bed).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heck yea brokenhorn! I appreciate the feedback. Going to draw something up tonight so I can get it cut in the morning!! Will post picks when completed. Thanks again.

[kodidavis29]

Went ahead and redesigned a few things take a look this is a tremendous upgrade as far as strength goes!

[Qicker306]

Do you have a retail price point on just the structure of the machine in both aluminium and steel? Not including any linear motion or electronic components. That would really put things into perspective for the rest of the machines component selection.

[kodidavis29]

Do you have a retail price point on just the structure of the machine in both aluminium and steel? Not including any linear motion or electronic components. That would really put things into perspective for the rest of the machines component selection.

Retail price point for now is 5,000 -6,000 including everything atleast base goal that is.

Haven’t yet decided on what material but as far as base cost goes steel would obviously be the cheapest but most expensive to ship. Thinking of offering both kits. What do you think?

If we do decide to take this to market we would offer upgrade kits front and back plates to extend width capability. Linear rails for acuracy, so on and so forth.

As of right now electronics I think I’m going to go with g540 and Nema 23s
1/2” Acme ball screws.

What are your thoughts?

[kodidavis29]

So after a complete tear down and recut and re assembly here it is still in wood but it’s coming together now can anyone tell me how long Cncrouter parts takes?