[helpmeout]

I am retired with a small income,so I have to watch where my money goes.But thats not the reason I ask this question.I ordered a part from a state over from where I live.The shipping cost was out of reason for this item,and that was being shipped USPS. So If im building a cnc It will cost Me At least 50% in shipping cost and the parts If you get them from here will cost you a lot more than from over seas..This same part from china was less than Half of what it cost here And free Shipping

A few months back I got on line to order a 3.5amp stepper motor driver from here.I checked from china,The very same driver,I was able to get three for the price of one from China,and with free shipping too.Now tell me Why I should not order from there...

[ger21]

A very large number of members here buy direct from China. If it weren't for China, you'd still see most machines being built with skate bearings and used steppers, like when I built mine 15 years ago. The vast majority of DIY CNC parts are made in China.

[helpmeout]

Thats about the time when I built my mill I was thinking of installing chain on to make it longer,but I dont need to do that now, Im converting a smaller cnc z axis to a acme thread drive so it wont drop the dremel and using a nema 23 stepper motor.I ordered it in the states and thats when I realized I could Have saved over half by getting it from China.From now on I will order my hardware from china and mybe my 1/8 inch bits and 1/4 inch bits too. the only thing I will get from here is my stepper motor controllers for that cnc is from gecko,They might cost me a little more but they are very dependable.Ive had the three geckos on both the small one and the big one and they have performed very well.As for the rest of my parts they will come from china.Even the small watch battery that I put in my digital calpers here at wally world cost 6.00 dollars got it from china for .99 cents and free shipping.I cant figger that out......

[wizard]

You are free to buy from wherever you like but if you buy from China you need to realize that you are feeding a war machine that has its eyes set on the USA! What people dont understand about China is that they can wait decades to accomplish a goal. Their goal is world domination.

Now that being said what the government in China wants and what the people want are two different things. Manufacturing is hot in China right now because there are so many people that want nothing to do with the government. So the flip side is that by doing business in China you are actually relieving some of the frustration the good people of China have with their government.

The world isnt perfect so i cant say what one should do. What frustrates me to no end is that i can run into just about any store and find another old american product now being made in China. This means we are loosing jobs in this country every week due to manufacturing transferred to China.

Now you may say that unemployment is low, which it is, so why does it matter? Well simple i see manufacturing as critical to the long term survival of an economy. Manufacturing simply provides a wider array of good paying jobs than just about anything else. The wide array of jobs is key here.

The only thing i can say now is that if you want to buy out of China do so now. Trade war or not, prices will go up.

By the way one big issue with Automation hardware is the way the stuff was/is marketed. You basically had manufactures working through specialist distributors selling to large corporation with all the overhead that implies. T is a system never intended to support end users in the basement. The distributors where as much about selling services as they where parts. This has changed somewhat with companies like Gecko selling drives directly and of course the Chinese manufactures. The problem of course is that the old line approach doesnt want to let go, so manufactures stick with specialist distributors and the overhead implied there. In a nut shell few manufactures in the USA have embraced lower profit higher volumes that wider distribution would support. The DIY market just isnt that huge.

[helpmeout]

O I forgot my cnc mill is made out of skate bearings from inline pair of skates, I picked up at garge sales for a couple of dollars you get 16 bearings per skate and no shipping.. Picked up my stepper motors from used printers the big ones. I was wanting an 8mm pillow block and bearing,already had three,was giong to make me a Z axis with them.ebay had used ones for 35-55 dollars plus 15.00 shipping ill use an oiled brass bushing for the fourth one now....my mill

[helpmeout]

You are correct Wizzard,but when you have the same product here that you know came from China being sold for three times the cost plus shipping. I as a very poor retired person that has a small hobby,I have to save every penny I can. You and I both probably have all of our lives had to work hard just to get by. Even if my brother sold a product for three times of what I could get it for down the street,I would go down the street and buy it,Thats just business.I would still love my brother and not hold it against him.If he could explain to me and justify me buying from him,I might buy from him...We live in a World wide business economy.Ill bet at least 95% of our products that is sold in the USA came form a different part of the World.

[wizard]

You do realize where you buy is a big factor as to what you pay! If you are paying $6 for a watch battery in the USA you are shopping wrong! You cant drive down to the local mall and expect a good deal. Especially considering malls are set up to market to woman that don't know any better.

Im not here to dismiss the fact that you can sometimes get stuff cheap in China. It happens but let me tell you there are exploitive vendors in China also. Case in point, earlier this week i went online looking for replacement key switches for a Fanuc CNC controller at work. The first vendor that popped up was from one of the online marketing sites, he wanted $16 each. Knowing better i found prices as low as $4.

What this means is that we must be careful no matter where we buy our hardware. You will certainly find good deals in China but becoming obsessed with buying there means missing opportunities elsewhere.

Thats about the time when I built my mill I was thinking of installing chain on to make it longer,but I dont need to do that now, Im converting a smaller cnc z axis to a acme thread drive so it wont drop the dremel and using a nema 23 stepper motor.I ordered it in the states and thats when I realized I could Have saved over half by getting it from China.From now on I will order my hardware from china and mybe my 1/8 inch bits and 1/4 inch bits too. the only thing I will get from here is my stepper motor controllers for that cnc is from gecko,They might cost me a little more but they are very dependable.Ive had the three geckos on both the small one and the big one and they have performed very well.As for the rest of my parts they will come from china.Even the small watch battery that I put in my digital calpers here at wally world cost 6.00 dollars got it from china for .99 cents and free shipping.I cant figger that out......

[wizard]

I don't disagree with some of your points, im just trying to highlight that many Chinese vendors can soak you also. 3X is certainly a lot of profit until you understand the expense of running a legitimate business in the USA. You also need to consider added value, many USA importers, do support the materials they import. This can be useful to many that want or need that support. A perfect example here is Automation Direct that imports a lot of stuff. They have some very good VFDs that are well supported with manuals and tech support. Is the extra cost worth it? That is up to you but for somethings i would say yes.

You are correct Wizzard,but when you have the same product here that you know came from China being sold for three times the cost plus shipping. I as a very poor retired person that has a small hobby,I have to save every penny I can. You and I both probably have all of our lives had to work hard just to get by. Even if my brother sold a product for three times of what I could get it for down the street,I would go down the street and buy it,Thats just business.I would still love my brother and not hold it against him.If he could explain to me and justify me buying from him,I might buy from him...We live in a World wide business economy.Ill bet at least 95% of our products that is sold in the USA came form a different part of the World.

[helpmeout]

You are correct in the support,but even that is quickly disappearing.Look at Sears it was one of the leaders in the retail market and they had one of the best if not the best companys that would give you a new wrench,no matter how old or how it was broken they would replace it no questions asked.But they are no longer with Us.We are fast becoming a world consumer,and if any business thinks they have a nich of there market cornered their going to come up short.There is a National News Reporter who goes out and looks for businesses that produce Made IN America products.and he has a hard time finding them, not many out there,Why because there are Too many American gov.agencies imposing so many restrictions on them,because they dont want them in business. It seems like they want us to become a world consumer.

Its a little like China Is having a blue-lite sale,but only World wide.Or at least in the USA..But I do so much like to hear others views because my views could be Way off kilter..

[aarggh]

I'm assuming the market for parts and consumables in the States is somewhat similar to what is here in OZ, in other words very little stuff actually MADE in the States, with resellers/distributors importing Chinese products and then selling them locally at 500-2000% mark-up, and trying to insinuate they are somehow better quality and value than the exact same item bought directly from China?

So far as OZ goes, if it wasn't for the availability of Chinese products, we'd be still possibly be importing the occasional $5 products from America with the requisite $100 shipping fee.

cheers, Ian

[ger21]

Just about every machine on this forum has parts made in China, and without those parts, the machines would be double the cost, or not exist at all, and the DIY CNC boom that's been happening for the last 5-10 years wouldn't be happening at all.

The world isnt perfect so i cant say what one should do. What frustrates me to no end is that i can run into just about any store and find another old american product now being made in China.

American companies started buying from China to make more profits. China didn't steal manufacturing, we gave it to them.

[wizard]

Just about every machine on this forum has parts made in China, and without those parts, the machines would be double the cost, or not exist at all, and the DIY CNC boom that's been happening for the last 5-10 years wouldn't be happening at all.

Im not sure i agree completely with this. What has made DIY CNC possible is the rapid improvement in electronics. Some of that stuff is still made in the USA. gecko comes to mind and is cost effective.

When i first got involved with CNC we where using Bandit controllers at work. Those controllers had a pretty large card rack and cost a good penny. Frankly an Arduino running GRBL leaves one with a similar level of performance.

American companies started buying from China to make more profits. China didn't steal manufacturing, we gave it to them.

Yes and what is worse our government promoted it with both political parties gladly profiting. Even now both political parties are not operating in the best interest if the American people.

[wizard]

Actually a lot of stuff is still made in the USA. Ive worked in manufacturing all my life. I cant say manufacturing is as strong as it use to be and frankly a lot of consumer products have left the country.

I'm assuming the market for parts and consumables in the States is somewhat similar to what is here in OZ, in other words very little stuff actually MADE in the States, with resellers/distributors importing Chinese products and then selling them locally at 500-2000% mark-up, and trying to insinuate they are somehow better quality and value than the exact same item bought directly from China?

Well if you are trying to run a business you need to offer your products in the best light possible. My point here is that dealing directly with suppliers in China doesn't lead to the best possible prices every time.

As mentioned above i was looking for a Fuji pushbutton online and got some way out of the ball park figures. Eventually found a USA distributor with more rational pricing. The difference was close to 10x.

.
So far as OZ goes, if it wasn't for the availability of Chinese products, we'd be still possibly be importing the occasional $5 products from America with the requisite $100 shipping fee.

cheers, Ian

Sounds like OZ needs to build up its manufacturing base.

This reminds me, a decade or so ago a guy at the plant won a trip to OZ. Not sure how or where but he had glowing reports about the trip.

[ger21]

Im not sure i agree completely with this. What has made DIY CNC possible is the rapid improvement in electronics. Some of that stuff is still made in the USA. gecko comes to mind and is cost effective.

No, electronics have always been readily available. Gecko was selling drives before this forum existed 15 years ago. I used s Xylotex drive on my machines, which was made in the US. PMDX, another US company, has long made some of the best breakout boards and other electronics for the DIY and hobby crowds.
The difference has been low cost linear bearings, ballscrews, and motors. (Are motors electronics?)
When I started buying parts for my machine 12+ years ago, I had to pay $60 each for used stepper motors. You can get similar motors today, new, for about $25-$35.

[mamexp]

It is quite refreshing to read the discusion about world economy on my fav hobby forums. I still consider myself young and my backgroud is mathematics. About 10 yrs ago i learned more about economics and started to see the shift from manufracturing industry to services industry. The Western countries are driven by large corporations which only look at profits without the social impact of their decisions. I then learned about creation of money and realized the flaws. Money as we know it is actually created by debt. Our goverments have no control of money creation mechanism. The socalled Federal Reserve is actually a private entity created by private bankers. The "federal" in its name is as good as "Federal Express".

So what this has anything to do with cheap parts from China. The corporations moved productions to China then turned first world countries to consumers market. Bankers are actually the largest shareholders of all corporations thanks to Wallstreet. The same Bankers lobbied the goverments to impose more cost to corporations that manufractures domestically (through free trade and taxations). It's very scary as it sounds insane but just follow the money and see why it is the tool to control everything.

[helpmeout]

I understand what your saying Is true,but when the same product is sold here in the states that came from china and that product is marked up 10 times the basic amount and to ship that same item from a US based company is more than what that product costs there is some thing wrong.
What Im talking about is I was going to order two parts from A US based company,those items were made in china,and to have them shipped to me was giong to cost 19.95.USPS.There is a problem.I Know the Companys have no control over the shipping costs.but again when I can get those same parts from China at a very low cost,And free shipping Ill wait a few days longer for my parts. and I am not going to pay that much money for shipping.When you tell the US companys about the high cost of shipping they laugh at you.Because of that high cost of shipping Two US companys lost a sale.What Is wrong with this picture.I am not going To spend 2/3 of the cost of my CNC rebuild for shipping cost.So Because of my income I have to make every cent count.

Perhaps because my spending is so small,my input and my money is not inportant enough to matter,Even in this large city Im in I was looking for some 4-conductor stranded 18-22gage cable to connect some stepper motors to the motor drivers,No local box stores dont carry It,and the Commerical electric supply houses here will not sell you 25-50 ft. you must buy 500 ft.minnium.There Again Business from China will sell to me and free shipping.Now tell me what am I supposed to do.The problems that I run into rebuilding this cnc,I can handle them,but I did not know how hard it was to just get a small part or something to put this thing together.I dont have a dog in this fight but if these US industral business dont change there thinking about the customers they will go under.Now back to my cnc rebuild...

[skrubol]

FYI shipping out of China is heavily subsidized by their government.
I buy stuff from China all the time. If you're trying to compete with China on price, you're in the wrong business.

[ger21]

Even in this large city Im in I was looking for some 4-conductor stranded 18-22gage cable to connect some stepper motors to the motor drivers,No local box stores dont carry It,and the Commerical electric supply houses here will not sell you 25-50 ft. you must buy 500 ft.minnium.There Again Business from China will sell to me and free shipping.Now tell me what am I supposed to do.

Check Ebay for things like that.

[helpmeout]

I do that also,Also here is a Question about a stepper motor, my stepper motors Is rated at 3.5 to 8 amps, and rated at about 3.5 - 4.5 volts,I think you can run them about (correct me if im wrong) 10-15 times the rated voltage, which mine has ran at a peak voltage of about 65 volts for a number of years with no problems.but the Question what about one rated at 12volts, can you mix them with a, say 3.5 volt stepper motor and will there be any problems....

[skrubol]

Do you know the inductance of the 12v stepper? There's a different guideline for calculating the voltage based on inductance (I'd have to look it up.) Or is there a resistance spec'd on the stepper?
Reason I ask is 12V seems very high for a typical voltage rating for a stepper, (which is usually just the rated current times the winding resistance.) I have seen steppers that show their operating voltage as well, which, with a certain driver might be what they're actually meant to run at (but may be lower than what you could run them with on a modern microstepping driver.)
If they are rated the same way, you could run them from the same voltage, but you wouldn't be able to get great performance from either. Around 70v, the 3.5v stepper would have limited torque due to iron heating losses (heating from too much voltage,) and the 12v stepper would have plenty of torque at very low speeds, but lose torque rapidly at higher speeds.