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IndustryArena Forum > Other Machines > PCB milling > Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?
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  1. #1
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    Question Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Hi All,

    My first post here, and I'm new to both CNC and milling PCBs. And by new, I mean I had never even powered up a mill or milled anythingbefore three weeks ago and I'm still only self-taught.

    So I'm trying to do things as cheaply as possible until I get the hang of it. This means avoiding commercial software where possible, or anything that's tied to a specific PCB manufacturer.

    I used to make PCBs with photoresist and a double sided UV case, but for the times I make PCBs, it's a pain to mix chemicals up in the required quantities for a single PCB and then dispose of it all. I had a 6040 mill gathering dust in the shed ( had problems with the parallel port and shelved it for a decade ) so I pulled it out, fixed it up and added a USB breakout to work with Windows 10. But it's been challenging even finding free software to cover every part of the process.

    So after looking around and trying different things, I put together a basic setup involving;

    * FreePCB. It's not great but it works. It's the only free PCB software I've been able to find that outputs Gerber.
    * FlatCAM. This is surprisingly good, is free to use.
    * Autoleveller077. This also works remarkably well, and puts out Mach3 format gcode.

    I'm using 0.1mm 10degree engraving bits, which make a mess, but it's easily cleaned up with a quick polish after engraving, and I'm getting sub 10-thou cuts with a new bit and even worn bits seem OK.

    Currently, I'm missing some easy options. One example is a simple way of cutting the PCB since I can't edit the gcode ( and haven't worked out if FlatCAM can edit it ) and flatcam treats the outline as a path and tries to mill both sides which is a problem. At best, I get around this by manually editing the gcode.

    Anyway, this brings the newbie question. Is there are other free software packages I should be looking at that others have tried and can recommend? It's all working, but it could work better. Interestingly, there is clearly need for a PCB layout application with milling intended from the start, but I couldn't find one at all - even among the commercial packages.

    And are there any better bits out there? That cans still give me sub 10-thou cuts? I can live with 14-thou if necessary, but 15 too much and it needs to be reliable. Cutting depth isn't perfect, so I'm hesitant to use wider bits. I did have a good bit that came with the router, and it worked well at first, but not for long and the other bits I had which all looked the same were no good at all.

    I only have a 12000 rpm spindle which puts out about 11800 so please also consider this in any suggestions - And all comments and thoughts welcome. As I mentioned, I'm very new, entirely self-taught so far and completely inexperienced so please assume I know pretty much nothing at all, as that's not far from the situation.

    Thanks
    David

  2. #2
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    Jun 2012
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Take a look a Fusion 360. It's free and can be linked to Eagle (which is sort of free, limit on board size and layers, etc.). I use Kicad for pcb design and it can output dxf files which can be consumed by Fusion 360.

  3. #3
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    Nov 2012
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    I use KiCAD (or anything else that can output Gerber files) to design my boards and FlatCAM (or GCAM SE, although this one has some notable limitations) to generate the G-code; then, since my 3020 mill is driven via an Arduino-based GRBL box, I execute that G-code with any suitable GRBL GUI, such as Universal GCode Sender, GrblControl or bCNC - the latter two even offer built-in PCB auto-levelling although I tend to just use a pre-milled flat piece of HDF. The tool I use is typically a 10 or 20 degree 0.1mm tip v-stylus, same as you; I can't say I never have any levelling issues, but I purposefully avoid working with anything that pushes the envelope too much (into 10-mil territory) and larger SMD pitches tend to work fine by just milling a bit deeper than absolutely necessary.

    Regarding alternate software, in the past I also used to use Line Grinder or Visolate to do the same job FlatCAM's does, but they're older software, probably of any interest only as an alternative option if FlatCAM ever fails at something. In particular, the board cutout problem you mention with FlatCAM is an interesting one - when first loading the board contour Gerber it does indeed show up as a "thick" object, and if I select it then use the first "Generate Geometry" button on the "Selected" tab the path generated does indeed mill "around" both "inside" and "outside" the contour. However, that first "Generate Geometry" button belongs to the "Isolation Routing" section which is expected to do exactly that. To mill outside the board contour, you use the second "Generate Geometry" button, from the "Board Cutout" section which for me performs as expected - it just cuts outside the board outline, once, incorporating 2 or 4 break-out tabs as selected.

    And this is where the "interesting" part comes in - while the contour of the board gets cut from the outside only this way, as it should be, the distance isn't quite right - the cut path should be a tool radius away from the Gerber contour's centerline but it gets placed a tool radius away from the outside edge of the "thick" contour line which IMHO is a bug - the thickness of contour layer Gerber lines is supposed to be meaningless, only the centerline is supposed to matter. That said, it's easily worked around either by subtracting the Gerber's line thickness (times two) from the outline cut tool's diameter or by drawing the PCB outline with an infinitely thin line in the design phase. I say "infinitely thin" instead of "zero width" because FlatCAM seems to have a problem with zero-width Gerber geometry. Well, or one can just use one of the other softwares mentioned to generate the outline...

  4. #4

    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    another free option is chillipeppr - http://chillipeppr.com/ It will read eagle format and produce the required GCODE, someone also has a KICAD workspace that does the same. It also handles surface probing of the PCB and makes the required level adjustments. The downside is you need either a tinyg or GRBL controller on your CNC for it to work and that you need to be online for it to work.

    I started out using Flatcam and ended up purchasing a coppercam license, very affordable and more usable than flatcam, still not perfect but an improvement I think is worth paying for the license.

    Regards,

    Stephen

  5. #5
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by blinkenlight View Post
    To mill outside the board contour, you use the second "Generate Geometry" button, from the "Board Cutout" section which for me performs as expected - it just cuts outside the board outline, once, incorporating 2 or 4 break-out tabs as selected.
    Oh wow, that works great, even given the application's limitations... I hadn't been able to work that one out even though it seems so obvious in hindsight, so thank you very much for pointing that out to me.



    I feel a bit dumb missing it, but I would have felt dumber had I persisted for longer.

    David

  6. #6
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by madeinoz67 View Post
    another free option is chillipeppr - http://chillipeppr.com/ It will read eagle format and produce the required GCODE, someone also has a KICAD workspace that does the same. It also handles surface probing of the PCB and makes the required level adjustments. The downside is you need either a tinyg or GRBL controller on your CNC for it to work and that you need to be online for it to work.

    I started out using Flatcam and ended up purchasing a coppercam license, very affordable and more usable than flatcam, still not perfect but an improvement I think is worth paying for the license.

    Regards,

    Stephen
    Thanks for the suggestions. Moving to GRBL probably wouldn't be ideal as I don't think my motion controller support it, but I'll take another look at KiCAD. I did check it out before, but gave up on it as I didn't think it supported Gerber. I'll revisit it then.

    David

  7. #7
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Hi,
    I've used Eagle for several years, the free version is somewhat limited but useable. There is a user supplied UserLanguageProgram that generates Gcode both for the etch
    toolpaths but also drill files and outline milling.

    I use AutolevellerAE to probe my circuit board blank and post process my etch files. I liked Autoleveller that much that I paid the 20GBP subscription to get the version
    that generates a probe file.....much preferred than the free version in my opinion.

    With Autoleveller I cut ordinary 1 oz copper board (35um or 1.4 thou) at a depth of 0.05mm (50um or 2 thou) with ordinary V engraving bits with near perfect results.
    If you are having to cut 10 thou deep then you are cutting a lot of fiberglass and your tool life will be crap and/or your cut quality will suffer.

    The single most important thing about using Autoleveller is to NOT FLEX the PCB blank by clamping it to the base board, I've used screws, clamps, blocks of wood,
    all and every one of them has induced a bow into the board that Autoleveller can't fix. I now use double sided tape and that works great. Until I did I never had particularly good
    results....now I do. I'm quite happy using TSOP ICs with 0.2mm between the pins now. Trust me you want to try double sided tape...just like night and day!

    Craig

  8. #8
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    89

    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Hi all,

    Seeing this thread I would just like to share the software I use for generating PCBs and subsequently milling them ... I use Diptrace to do the PCB layout (free for non-commercial use up to 300 pins - no size limit), then export the Gerbers to Flatcam and then enter the gerbers into Estlcam for the PCB milling process. Estlcam also has a surface leveling feature so that the unevenness of the PCBs can be compensated. There are a couple of youtube videos showing how to make the conversion in practice:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZhb...&t=0s&index=26
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsB...&t=0s&index=25
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQXN...&t=0s&index=24

    If one is interested in a walk-through of how to use Diptrace (which IMHO is quite intuitive to use) just change the #8 in the first video to #7, #6 etc. and then there is more on Diptrace.

    Cheers & hope it may help someone

    Jesper

  9. #9
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Here seems to be a simple guide, following a few steps.

    https://www.instructables.com/id/PCB...ly-using-free/

    I will test this next time to see if it is better or easier than my current work flow, which is Eagle.

    I don't use any auto leveller because in my opinion it is better to spend time with squaring and levelling your machine than hiding the problems.

  10. #10
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Hi A_Camera,
    I spent a lot of effort to get my machine level and square, its level vertically to 0.8um.

    What that doesn't account for is any bow or twist in the PCB blank, and there is always some. Vacumm holding would probably eliminate most
    of it but Autoleveller does a fine job.

    I used to find that with medium sized (100mm x100mm) boards that the vertical variation was such that I could not achieve a finer resolution
    than through hole boards with confidence in the isolation between tracks.

    With Autoleveller I can now do the same size boards down to TSSOP, that is 0.2mm between tracks with perfect isolation.
    Whether you regard it as cheating or not the improvement in results is like night and day.

    Craig

  11. #11
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi A_Camera,
    I spent a lot of effort to get my machine level and square, its level vertically to 0.8um.

    What that doesn't account for is any bow or twist in the PCB blank, and there is always some. Vacumm holding would probably eliminate most
    of it but Autoleveller does a fine job.

    I used to find that with medium sized (100mm x100mm) boards that the vertical variation was such that I could not achieve a finer resolution
    than through hole boards with confidence in the isolation between tracks.

    With Autoleveller I can now do the same size boards down to TSSOP, that is 0.2mm between tracks with perfect isolation.
    Whether you regard it as cheating or not the improvement in results is like night and day.

    Craig
    Perhaps it depends on the PCB. I have some large sheets which I normally cut out maximum 100x160 sizes from. The sheets I have are pretty old (30+ years) but flat and high quality. I have also some which are not that flat (i.e. pretty warped) and I tested those as well, but before use I get rid of the warping through manually bending until I can no longer measure any warping. This works very well for me and is not that hard as it sounds, but the PCB will not keep the flatness for more than an hour or two, after that it is warped again. Anyway, I use simple painters tape to fix the PCB to the MDF board, which is surfaced before every PCB work, not in advance because humidity can change it's shape. The tape I am using is strong enough to remove some slight warping as well. What I find more of a problem is that factory cut PCB sheets are cut using some sort of scissors and the pressure deforms the PCB at the edges so that the fibre glass is reduced in thickness at the edges, so this can cause some issues occasionally with traces near the edges.

    Yes, I agree, vacuum table would be good...

    I tried Autoleveller once or twice but found that it was not necessary to get good results, assuming the table is surfaced in advance.

  12. #12
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Hi,
    I found that when I tried clamping the PCB blank to the spoil board I induced a slight bend/warp, enough to get poor or inconsistent results.
    When I do regular board (1oz) I set the cut depth to 0.05mm or 50 um. It takes very very little variation in Z for the isolation to be incomplete.

    I now use doublesided tape to retain the PCB to the spoil board which minimizes any warp/bend and using Autloveller to get the last 10um
    of variation means that a cut depth of only 50um in 35um copper board is effective over mid sized boards.

    The table of my mill is ground steel, it does not get surfaced ever, or even scratched if I can help it!

    Craig

  13. #13
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    I found that when I tried clamping the PCB blank to the spoil board I induced a slight bend/warp, enough to get poor or inconsistent results.
    When I do regular board (1oz) I set the cut depth to 0.05mm or 50 um. It takes very very little variation in Z for the isolation to be incomplete.

    I now use doublesided tape to retain the PCB to the spoil board which minimizes any warp/bend and using Autloveller to get the last 10um
    of variation means that a cut depth of only 50um in 35um copper board is effective over mid sized boards.

    The table of my mill is ground steel, it does not get surfaced ever, or even scratched if I can help it!

    Craig
    I don't clamp, only use tape. Clamping, as you say also, cause warping/bending, taping the PCB edges removes warping (for me), if there is any. I try to avoid double sided tape because in my experience they are pretty uneven in thickness, so it may cause bending.

    By "surfacing the table" before each PCB I actually meant the spoil board I have between my table and the PCB. I understand that the actual table is not feasible to surface every time, nor is it necessary if there is a spoil board between the PCB and the table.

  14. #14
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Here seems to be a simple guide, following a few steps.

    https://www.instructables.com/id/PCB...ly-using-free/

    I will test this next time to see if it is better or easier than my current work flow, which is Eagle.

    I don't use any auto leveller because in my opinion it is better to spend time with squaring and levelling your machine than hiding the problems.
    I started testing this but gave up because I didn't like Fritzing. The library is very limited and creating parts seems a bit tricky and complex.

    What I am testing now is EasyEDA, and that seems very nice. Easy to create/modify parts and generate PCB directly out of the schematics. It is a web based application, but that isn't an issue today, except for the Autorouter, but that part can be run locally on the PC. You have to register an account, but it is free. The projects are private if you want to keep them private. The G-code is generated in Flatcam. This workflow with these two steps seems very easy, so I will probably give up Eagle.

  15. #15
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Last time I used Diptrace (which was a while ago,) I was able to output g-code directly from it. It's by far my favorite free to cheap PCB program I've used or researched.

  16. #16
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    can you change a Jpeg into a G-code file ?

    I know you would have to put a cutting depth in too .....

  17. #17
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Quote Originally Posted by imperial90303 View Post
    can you change a Jpeg into a G-code file ?

    I know you would have to put a cutting depth in too .....
    It's possible, but rarely the best way to go about things.

  18. #18
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Hi All,
    as I posted earlier I use EAGLE and have done for a few years. Until last year or so I could have bought the entire program, the 'Pro' version for $670NZD, about $450USD
    for a perpetual license, single seat, from Element14, the owners of EAGLE at that time. I wish I had done so.

    In more recent times Autodesk, the company who own AutoCAD, have bought EAGLE and gone to a subscription model. There is very little liking for
    what they have done out there. Having said that the conditions of the subscription are not too bad, its just users like me don't like it. Autodesk have maintained the free
    version, its limited to two copper layers of 80 x100 mm but otherwise performs well.

    In the professional and industrial market there is a program called Altium and it has a very major market share. On the back on the success that EAGLE had in making inroads
    into Altiums market share Altium have released a version of their program with a view to capture amateurs and low volume commercial use with a perpetual license of about $1400.
    I have only read a review of it but it must be giving Autodesk some real competition, and a more readily accepted license mode, namely perpetual rather than subscription.

    I will do some more research, I saw a review of it on EEVblog and it looks good and got Dave's thumbs up.

    Craig

  19. #19
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    Hi,
    yes, its called Altium Circuitdesigner and is now down to $495USD for a perpetual license.

    https://nz.element14.com/altium/11-1...dio/dp/2855940

    Note the price is in NZD.

    Craig

  20. #20
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    Re: Milling PCBs with free software... What's out at the moment?

    ...which is very far from free...

    Also, the 100x80mm limitation of the free version of Eagle is occasionally a PITA.

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