[kingofl337]

Oh CNC electrical gurus please help a poor lost soul.

I accidentally ordered a 220V 1.5KW spindle to replace my 110V 800W unit.

I have a HY 110V 2.2KW VFD so that is from a current current stand point, but obviously it only outputs 110V.

I figured I'd spin up the spindle just to see what would happen and I expected it run at 50% speed but it did not. I check it with a calibrated tach from work it was running at 24k at 400HZ.

So, I measured the output on the VFD and it was outputting 120V. If the I run the motor at 110V @ 12A instead 220V @ 6.5A will that give me the same results?

[mactec54]

Oh CNC electrical gurus please help a poor lost soul.

I accidentally ordered a 220V 1.5KW spindle to replace my 110V 800W unit.

I have a HY 110V 2.2KW VFD so that is from a current current stand point, but obviously it only outputs 110V.

I figured I'd spin up the spindle just to see what would happen and I expected it run at 50% speed but it did not. I check it with a calibrated tach from work it was running at 24k at 400HZ.

So, I measured the output on the VFD and it was outputting 120V. If the I run the motor at 110V @ 12A instead 220V @ 6.5A will that give me the same results?

Check the specks on the VFD as most 120v input will output 220v, do not measure unless you have a meter can be used for a VFD Drive

With 400Hz set this will make the spindle run at 24,000 no matter what the input voltage is

You can not measure the VFD output voltage with any accuracy, and can damage the VFD when doing this with a normal meter

Where do you get 110v from NA is 120 /240v for single phase

Changing the amps to 12.5, would most likely fry the spindle, so 7 amps is around the max you could use

[Eldon_Joh]

your 110v spindle vfd may have a voltage doubler on the input rectifier, it was then programmed to deliver ~110vac at 400hz

which means it has a multiple of 2, 200volt capacitors rather than a bunch of 400 volt capacitors. or, it may indeed be a 120v vfd that cannot deliver more than 110 vac output.

anyhow vfds that are specifically set up for spindles have a volts per hz curve that needs to be matched to the spindle or you will burn up the spindle.

but yes for the moment you can drive your 220v 1.5KW spindle from a 110vac source, but only up to 50% of the base speed and you'll get 800 watts of power from it (do so this will require reprogramming your vfd to deliver 110vac at 200hz, not 400hz)

you may be able to get about 400 watts from your 1.5KW spindle, delivering 110vac at 400hz into it.


anyhow a lot of these spindles rate their power by the input watts going into the motor, not the shaft hp coming out. so a 1500 watt spindle may only deliver 1000 watts to the shaft. anyhow, the 1.5KW spindle should be more efficient than the 800 watt spindle so you may in fact be able to use it with your existing 110vac vfd, but you won't get full power from it because the voltage is wrong. maximum power at the spindle shaft may be in the range of 200-250hz if your maximum voltage is 110vac into the motor.

[kingofl337]

mactec54

The specs on the name plate of the VFD defines 110V in/out.

I used a FLUKE 73 Series III, to measure the between WV and UV both indicated 120v AC from phase to phase with the motor connected and running. I will look up how to properly measure the voltage.

My question still stands from a heat perspective, what is the difference between a 110v vs 220v motor.

[kingofl337]

Eldon,

So you think I could get 800W in the 12k range instead of at the 24k.

[mactec54]

The specs on the name plate of the VFD defines 110V in/out.

I used a FLUKE 73 Series III, to measure the between WV and UV both indicated 120v AC from phase to phase with the motor connected and running. I will look up how to properly measure the voltage.

My question still stands from a heat perspective, what is the difference between a 110v vs 220v motor.

The 110v on the Chinese label is incorrect it should read as 120v it changed in the 60's to 120v for NA so they are still a bit behind

What's the difference,The motor coil windings will be different

Your FLUKE meter should be ok, this is one that is able to measure the output of a VFD

[kingofl337]

I went through the settings on my drive it shows 167v on the DC bus. Which is roughly 120v x 1.4

So, a 220v spindle will have lower AWG / mm^2 wire in the windings vs the 110v?

[Eldon_Joh]

the 220v motor is about double the capacity so it will have about the same size wires, for the moment means you can only run it at the rated current. If you want to take it apart and stick a thermocouple in the windings then you can investigate for yourself what its limits are. The motor is larger, so usually this means its more efficient. however, they may have taken advantage of that when advertising the motor as 1.5KW.

yes, you can use the 220v motor on 110vac but you will need to program the vfd to deliver those 110volts at 200hz not 400, you will then be able to drive the motor at its rated amps, which at 200hz should result in approximately half the advertized power. (Whether this is electrical input power or shaft output power i don't know)

you can still drive the motor in the range of 200 to 400hz but the torque will drop off quickly.

the spindle is an induction motor and as a general rule the torque generated in it follows the ratio of volts/hz squared. however motors are often run saturated so when running them below the nominal volts per hz, there will be less current in the windings and less heat generated in the core, so you can then increase the load on the motor until the extra heat in the windings (due to the current rising with increasing load) compensates.

heat generated in the windings follows amps squared, so it doesn't take much additional load to offset the reduced iron losses when operating the motor at lower volts/hz

these reasons are why i said peak shaft power may be in the range of 200-250hz, but you will have to investigate the thermal limits if you exceed the rated line current in the windings.


basically because the motor is larger and presumably more efficient you should be able to get more power out of the shaft with this motor in the range of 12K-15K rpm, than you did with the old spindle at 24K rpm. you will of course have to change the speeds feeds and cutter diameters to take advantage of this.

[mactec54]

Hi Pplug and other members of this forum.
I have some issue about chinese VFD inverter with spindle.

First it was working perfectly with 18000 rpm.
I factory resetted and reprogrammed. Now it's working but not more than 3000 rpm 50htz.

My current configuration is:
PD013 = 01 instead of 08 ( I guess it's fake inverter)
PD005 = 400
PD004 = 400
PD002 = 001
PD070 = 01
PD072 = 400
Which is the configuration of my Huanyang inverter's manufacturer : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mbL...ature=youtu.be

The main problem is when i unplug spindle from my inverter it's working perfect at 400htz, 24000rpm.
And when I plug my inverter to spindle it cant rotate more than 50htz 3000rpm if I try to rotate POT to increase htz it showed "dL" error and stopped.

I attached some video here : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Mc...-LkxWabRneie24

The problem could be on both spindle and inverter.
So my question is:
1) How to program my Inverter.
2) How to check my spindle is working or not.

Please help me to solve this problem.

Best RegardsBlink Strike

4 posts in different threads, about the same thing wastes peoples time, you never do a ReSet unless the VFD has been in use before or you really messed up the programing, you have not set all the needed Parameters that is why you have the problem, I have already posted the correct Parameters for you to use

[kingofl337]

Mactech I did search and your largely quoted response doesn't even align with my questions.... Was this intentional or supposed to be another post?

[mactec54]

Mactech I did search and your largely quoted response doesn't even align with my questions.... Was this intentional or supposed to be another post?

This was for someone that posted here, and there post was removed, so all you see is my post the poster was blinkstrikebob, as you can see in the Quote, which had posed the same thing in 4 different threads


Your post I answered, as did others, there is not anymore answers you need for you post, just go to it and run it, with normal settings I post for these 400Hz Spindles

[Eldon_Joh]

This was for someone that posted here, and there post was removed, so all you see is my post the poster was blinkstrikebob, as you can see in the Quote, which had posed the same thing in 4 different threads


Your post I answered, as did others, there is not anymore answers you need for you post, just go to it and run it, with normal settings I post for these 400Hz Spindles

220v spindle on 110v vfd probably requires changing some settings, as i already explained.

[mactec54]

220v spindle on 110v vfd probably requires changing some settings, as i already explained.

What you explained is incorrect

That would be a mistake if you changed anything that is not normal for these Spindles, they are 400Hz and the VFD drive must be set for Max and Minimum speed there is not much else that would have any affect as to how the Spindle runs

If you fail to use the correct V/F ratio the spindle will burn up, can he run it at your suggested speed yes he can as it will have the correct V/F ratio right the way through the operating range,( if the Parameters are set correct, normal for this Spindle ) the only thing that will be missing even if he ran it at full speed is the spindle will not have it's normal full torque, so even at the 12,000RPM and 200Hz it still will be lacking the normal torque the spindle would have running on 220v, the main problem is the Dc Bus Voltage will be half of what it needs to be no matter what speed he runs it at

His best solution is to buy the correct VFD Drive

[Eldon_Joh]

What you explained is incorrect

and just how much power do you think he will get from his 220v/400hz spindle on a 110vac/400hz drive with the default settings you seem to be saying will work?


all he has to do is reprogram the drive to deliver 110v/200hz and his 220v spindle will deliver nameplate torque up to 200hz at which point the torque will drop.

do you understand how induction motors work?

can he run it at your suggested speed yes he can as it will have the correct V/F ratio right the way through the operating range,( if the Parameters are set correct, normal for this Spindle ) the only thing that will be missing even if he ran it at full speed is the spindle will not have it's normal full torque, so even at the 12,000RPM and 200Hz it still will be lacking the normal torque the spindle would have running on 220v, the main problem is the Dc Bus Voltage will be half of what it needs to be no matter what speed he runs it at

honestly i can't tell if you're confused, or intentionally providing bad advice.

"the only thing that will be missing even if he ran it at full speed is the spindle will not have it's normal full torque," yeah, about a fourth of the torque. if half of this torque is air and bearing drag at 400hz it will be useless.

if he does as i suggest he will develop full torque from zero to 200hz.

"so even at the 12,000RPM and 200Hz it still will be lacking the normal torque the spindle would have running on 220v, the main problem is the Dc Bus Voltage will be half of what it needs to be no matter what speed he runs it at"

not at all correct, when he reprograms the vfd to deliver 110vac at 200hz it will have nameplate volts per hz and it will develop full nameplate torque which means he will get half the shaft hp the motor is rated for at 200hz, or about the same power as he had with his 110vac/400hz spindle when it was running at 400hz.

depending on how lossy the motor is, it could be overloaded slightly at the lower frequency to compensate for less bearing drag, less air drag induced heating.

[mactec54]

and just how much power do you think he will get from his 220v/400hz spindle on a 110vac/400hz drive with the default settings you seem to be saying will work?


all he has to do is reprogram the drive to deliver 110v/200hz and his 220v spindle will deliver nameplate torque up to 200hz at which point the torque will drop.

do you understand how induction motors work?


honestly i can't tell if you're confused, or intentionally providing bad advice.

"the only thing that will be missing even if he ran it at full speed is the spindle will not have it's normal full torque," yeah, about a fourth of the torque. if half of this torque is air and bearing drag at 400hz it will be useless.

if he does as i suggest he will develop full torque from zero to 200hz.

"so even at the 12,000RPM and 200Hz it still will be lacking the normal torque the spindle would have running on 220v, the main problem is the Dc Bus Voltage will be half of what it needs to be no matter what speed he runs it at"

not at all correct, when he reprograms the vfd to deliver 110vac at 200hz it will have nameplate volts per hz and it will develop full nameplate torque which means he will get half the shaft hp the motor is rated for at 200hz, or about the same power as he had with his 110vac/400hz spindle when it was running at 400hz.

depending on how lossy the motor is, it could be overloaded slightly at the lower frequency to compensate for less bearing drag, less air drag induced heating.

You obvious no nothing about these spindle motors, if he uses the normal parameter that everyone else has to use it will be at 200Hz at 12,000 RPM, If he does it your way he has a high chance of smoking the Spindle motor which a lot of users have already found out when you don't use the correct Parameters

Your suggestion, of incorrect Parameter setting is not what anyone should do

[Eldon_Joh]

You obvious no nothing about these spindle motors, if he uses the normal parameter that everyone else has to use it will be at 200Hz at 12,000 RPM, If he does it your way he has a high chance of smoking the Spindle motor which a lot of users have already found out when you don't use the correct Parameters

Your suggestion, of incorrect Parameter setting is not what anyone should do

if he uses the normal parameter that everyone else has to use it will be at 200Hz at 12,000 RPM,

of course, its a 2 pole motor.

And the normal parameters for his drive will deliver at that frequency: about half of the voltage the motor needs.

which will not provide satisfactory operation.


anyhow, feel free to publish the volts per hz that both his motors need: the 1.5KW 220v spindle motor and his 800 watt 110vac spindle motor.

and then please explain how his 110v drive can deliver an appropriate voltage for both motors using default parameters. hint:its impossible. one motor is twice the voltage of the other!

[mactec54]

of course, its a 2 pole motor.

And the normal parameters for his drive will deliver at that frequency: about half of the voltage the motor needs.

which will not provide satisfactory operation.


anyhow, feel free to publish the volts per hz that both his motors need: the 1.5KW 220v spindle motor and his 800 watt 110vac spindle motor.

and then please explain how his 110v drive can deliver an appropriate voltage for both motors using default parameters. hint:its impossible. one motor is twice the voltage of the other!

You should know that NA is 120V not 110V

No you are totally lost, these spindles will not run with the VFD Drives Default settings, all you will see if you use the Default settings is a lot of smoke, it take about 8 to 12 seconds and it is all over

[Eldon_Joh]

You should know that NA is 120V not 110V

No you are totally lost, these spindles will not run with the VFD Drives Default settings, all you will see if you use the Default settings is a lot of smoke, it take about 8 to 12 seconds and it is all over

my use of the phrase default parameters was intended to refer to what you call "Parameters are set correct, normal for this Spindle"

which you have yet to define properly; Not to refer to default parameters of an off the shelf inverter which would normally be set for 240vac/60hz.

also, since you seem to indicate that he can just plug his 220v motor into his 110vac vfd and run it, my use of default parameters was also intended to refer to this statement from post #13

can he run it at your suggested speed yes he can as it will have the correct V/F ratio right the way through the operating range,( if the Parameters are set correct, normal for this Spindle ) the only thing that will be missing even if he ran it at full speed is the spindle will not have it's normal full torque, so even at the 12,000RPM and 200Hz it still will be lacking the normal torque the spindle would have running on 220v, the main problem is the Dc Bus Voltage will be half of what it needs to be no matter what speed he runs it at

--which as i already explained is false.

and you should know that you cannot get more rms volts out then you put in, as we know the OP is referring to a drive that does Not have a voltage doubler, it cannot deliver 120vac anyways. so accusing me of not knowing what i'm talking about, using 110v vs 120v nominal difference as a justification shows everyone else several levels of bs. secondly those motors may indeed be wound for 110vac or 220vac, since it is impossible for a vfd when fed from a 240vac line to actually deliver 240vac out. so it would be quite smart of the spindle manufacturer to wind the motor for the lowest line voltage they expect the vfd to be delivered. 60hz motors do this already: they typically wire the motors for 4% drop, so 230vac rather than 240.




and you have yet to provide the information i asked for

[mactec54]

my use of the phrase default parameters was intended to refer to what you call "Parameters are set correct, normal for this Spindle"

which you have yet to define properly; Not to refer to default parameters of an off the shelf inverter which would normally be set for 240vac/60hz.

also, since you seem to indicate that he can just plug his 220v motor into his 110vac vfd and run it, my use of default parameters was also intended to refer to this statement from post #13

--which as i already explained is false.

and you should know that you cannot get more rms volts out then you put in, as we know the OP is referring to a drive that does Not have a voltage doubler, it cannot deliver 120vac anyways. so accusing me of not knowing what i'm talking about, using 110v vs 120v nominal difference as a justification shows everyone else several levels of bs. secondly those motors may indeed be wound for 110vac or 220vac, since it is impossible for a vfd when fed from a 240vac line to actually deliver 240vac out. so it would be quite smart of the spindle manufacturer to wind the motor for the lowest line voltage they expect the vfd to be delivered. 60hz motors do this already: they typically wire the motors for 4% drop, so 230vac rather than 240.




and you have yet to provide the information i asked for

He already did run it, with not problems as I said

What purpose would it serve when you have no use for any setup of a VFD Drive or Spindle of this type

He already knows what parameters to use, I don't have to repost them just for you, go through a manual and do them for yourself, which would be of very little use to you unless you have the same VFD Drive and spindle, which you don't

[Eldon_Joh]

He already did run it, with not problems as I said

and he hasn't reported on whether it develops enough torque to be useful or not.