[Bob La Londe]

I've been busy all week so I haven't had much time to work on the new machine. I did have three of the older machines running all day every day though.

Today I decided to get the PDB installed and maybe get a start on the ATC.

First off I have to say I actively dislike the black cube power supply for the PDB. Yuck. How inelegant. I went and grabbed a DIN mounted 12V PS out of my supplies cabinet and routed an extra pair of wires down the mill column into the electrical cabinet... then I read the part about disconnecting the ugly little power cube when its being used with an ATC. Ok, looks like I can put the fancy power supply away. Wasn't much room to mount it to the back plane in the cabinet anyway. I'm curious to see what the power solution will be when I get to the ATC.
The instructions are mostly quite good, but a lot of little things they say to do are already done. Drill a hole. Nope its already been drilled. Even the PDB itself sort of fell into place. I think I spent more time looking at it from different angles to make sure it was lined up right than I did mounting it. Level was pretty darn good. Alignment was too. I know the alignment was just luck, but still. Everything went together nicely. Even pulling the wire through the column wasn't to bad, but I have spent more than half my life pulling wires through hard to pull places. I could see how it could be kind of tricky. Might be nice if Tormach left a pull string tied off in there for folks who might struggle. I just used a fiberglass wire pulling rod myself.

Most everything fit together just like it was supposed to. There were only a couple little things. The zip ties are a cheap soft plastic kind. I had a couple break before they were even pulled snug. Fortunately I have bags and bags of good zip ties on the shelf left over from various jobs. I expect the zip ties would have lasted indefinitely if I hadn't tried to snug them down firmly.

The ends of the air lines from the control box were cut fast and sloppy with a dull tool. They were a little mashed, and not cut straight. I was actually surprised by that. The little short pieces that tie the fittings on the front of the PDB together were all cut straight clean and crisp.

No big deal. I have a couple razor sharp plastic tube cutters. I just squared up the end to make it nice and neat. A fresh razor blade would have done the job as well.

Nope haven't operated it yet. I want to read the ATC instructions now to see how the power is managed rather than use my PS or hook up the cube.

Somethings I wonder about too. When I did the automatic oiler installation I actually had to drill a hole, and enlarge a hole. LOL. However I did not need to use the included extra oil line. (Maybe when I install the splash pan and enclosure? ) The oil line on the machine already reached the forward most mounting location for the oiler with several inches of slack to allow for neat routing. .

I don't know if I am going to get used to the Tormach jog controller. It works just fine, and I suppose if I hadn't gotten used to a hand wheel type pendant it would be easier to get used to, but I am thinking I'm going to try to find out how practical it will be to use something like the VistaCNC iMach III P1AS pendant I am used to. Lee says he has some customers using them under PathPilot. I guess once I get everything else done I can worry about that.

Overall I am rather enjoying working on this machine. Other than my initial bad controller I've found very little to complain about, and quite a lot that is executed nicely.

[kstrauss]

I have a VistaCNC P4AS that worked well with Mach3 but haven't managed to get it to work with PP even after updating the firmware and downloading the latest installation instructions. Other than being prone to have aluminum chips wedge in the buttons I actually quite like the jog shuttle. I solved that problem by making a new shuttle shell that is essentially chip proof.

[CadRhino]

Congratulations on the new machine. Did I read your post right, that you already have (3) Tormach’s?
Which ones?
What are you making with then if you don’t mind me asking

Thanks



QUOTE=Bob La Londe;2172816]I've been busy all week so I haven't had much time to work on the new machine. I did have three of the older machines running all day every day though.

Today I decided to get the PDB installed and maybe get a start on the ATC.

First off I have to say I actively dislike the black cube power supply for the PDB. Yuck. How inelegant. I went and grabbed a DIN mounted 12V PS out of my supplies cabinet and routed an extra pair of wires down the mill column into the electrical cabinet... then I read the part about disconnecting the ugly little power cube when its being used with an ATC. Ok, looks like I can put the fancy power supply away. Wasn't much room to mount it to the back plane in the cabinet anyway. I'm curious to see what the power solution will be when I get to the ATC.
The instructions are mostly quite good, but a lot of little things they say to do are already done. Drill a hole. Nope its already been drilled. Even the PDB itself sort of fell into place. I think I spent more time looking at it from different angles to make sure it was lined up right than I did mounting it. Level was pretty darn good. Alignment was too. I know the alignment was just luck, but still. Everything went together nicely. Even pulling the wire through the column wasn't to bad, but I have spent more than half my life pulling wires through hard to pull places. I could see how it could be kind of tricky. Might be nice if Tormach left a pull string tied off in there for folks who might struggle. I just used a fiberglass wire pulling rod myself.

Most everything fit together just like it was supposed to. There were only a couple little things. The zip ties are a cheap soft plastic kind. I had a couple break before they were even pulled snug. Fortunately I have bags and bags of good zip ties on the shelf left over from various jobs. I expect the zip ties would have lasted indefinitely if I hadn't tried to snug them down firmly.

The ends of the air lines from the control box were cut fast and sloppy with a dull tool. They were a little mashed, and not cut straight. I was actually surprised by that. The little short pieces that tie the fittings on the front of the PDB together were all cut straight clean and crisp.

No big deal. I have a couple razor sharp plastic tube cutters. I just squared up the end to make it nice and neat. A fresh razor blade would have done the job as well.

Nope haven't operated it yet. I want to read the ATC instructions now to see how the power is managed rather than use my PS or hook up the cube.

Somethings I wonder about too. When I did the automatic oiler installation I actually had to drill a hole, and enlarge a hole. LOL. However I did not need to use the included extra oil line. (Maybe when I install the splash pan and enclosure? ) The oil line on the machine already reached the forward most mounting location for the oiler with several inches of slack to allow for neat routing. .

I don't know if I am going to get used to the Tormach jog controller. It works just fine, and I suppose if I hadn't gotten used to a hand wheel type pendant it would be easier to get used to, but I am thinking I'm going to try to find out how practical it will be to use something like the VistaCNC iMach III P1AS pendant I am used to. Lee says he has some customers using them under PathPilot. I guess once I get everything else done I can worry about that.

Overall I am rather enjoying working on this machine. Other than my initial bad controller I've found very little to complain about, and quite a lot that is executed nicely.[/QUOTE]

[jwatte]

Some pendants look like keyboards to the computer, so you simply program them to match the pendant buttons to the existing keyboard shortcuts, and you're in business.

Regarding PDB power supply: What's up with that? I thought it was pneumatic on all the models?

[kstrauss]

The VistaCNC pendants definitely do not look like keyboards to the control computer.

The PDB requires power to actuate the solenoid valves that control the air flow.

[Bob La Londe]

No, I actually have five other CNC machines. Six if you count the little Taig 2019 up on a shelf that I haven't used in years. I have 3 high speed machines (24K spindles). None of my other machines are Tormachs. I just can't afford to sit idle while I am setting up the new machine. I mostly make molds, but I get the occasional odd job that doesn't fall in that category. I am hoping the Tormach will be able to handle seem unattended stock designs, and help to bridge the gap between my heavier KMB1 and the little high speed mills.

Just finished setting up the PDB as I installed the ATC. Seems to work pretty good. I may tighten it up another half turn, but it holds the tools and the tools fall right out when released. Its kind of exciting. Never had a quick release that quick before. The Kwik 200 on the KMB1 is ok, but its not a toolless tool change. I have to engage the spindle brake and use a collar spanner. Anyway, I think even if I hadn't gotten the ATC the PDB would still be worth having.

I have tested basic function of the ATC, but have not yet lined it up.

Now for another one of those little things. The back cover with the controls for the ATC isn't a great fit. Atleast not on my machine. I had to enlarge all the screw holes, and there is still some minor interference between the components and the opening in the column casting. I probably should enlarge the top two holes a little more. After everything is fully tested and working I'll go over the seams and screw heads with some DAP clear sealant. On the back of the column it might not be a huge issue, but it could be some. I did put dielectric grease into the jack and all over the plug for the low pressure sensor already.

The PDB pendant works, and I suppose if it was all I had I would get used to it, but the feel of the membrane switches (bubble switches?) is not positive enough for my liking. You can't feel the button and as a result sometimes my finger sort of slides off and on the contact point. That would get irritating if it happened when doing manual tool changes. Over all it works though. Since I sprung for the foot pedal I just use it. Very positive feel. Works perfectly and stays open easily. I almost didn't install the foot pedal. I considered leaving it off thinking it might be in the way more than it helped. I'm glad I went ahead and plugged it in.

Now I think I'll shut it all down and go start making some dinner. It just occurs to me I missed lunch today. LOL.

Oh, One last thing. The daughter board for ATC and PDB power is much more elegant than the stupid little black cube. I'm not the only one who isn't fond of the cube either. I've seen it mentioned on a forums, and in somebody YouTube video as well. Unless its outrageously expensive I'd make the daughter board the default method of powering the PDB.

[Bob La Londe]

The VistaCNC pendants require a driver. I'll definitely query Lee some more before I spring for one for the Tormach.

I've used a variety pf pendants from passive numeric keyboards to programmable numeric keyboards (with a driver) to a manually setup microswitch joystick out of an arcade game to the 360 game controller (with plugin) and of course the VistaCNC MPG pendant. I almost went with the 360 game controller for all my machines (before the Tormach) but a lot of bootlegs are out there and many of those have issues with the Mach plugin.

[kstrauss]

I completely agree about not liking the wall wart for the PDB. I checked some time ago and what you want is Tormach "P/N 31980 12V daughterboard" which fits on the DC Bus Board to power the PDB. When I checked it was about us$106 + shipping which I found more offensive than the wall wart.

[Bob La Londe]

I completely agree about not liking the wall wart for the PDB. I checked some time ago and what you want is Tormach "P/N 31980 12V daughterboard" which fits on the DC Bus Board to power the PDB. When I checked it was about us$106 + shipping which I found more offensive than the wall wart.

LOL - IRL

I was actually preparing to install a DIN rail mounted 12V power supply inside the cabinet where the 4th axis driver would have gone when I happened to read that you don't use the wall-wart with the ATC. I had already even pulled some wire down thru the column for it and spliced the wire into the plug on the PDB control. I have several 12V din rail mounted power supplies I picked up some time back for air solenoids on my other machines. My 3 high speed machines have air seals on the spindles. I got a deal on several good used pulls and bought the lot. So far they have all been good.

[jwatte]

The PDB requires power to actuate the solenoid valves that control the air flow.

Interesting! I've used a manual-tool-change 1100 for a long time, and now I got myself a 440 with PDB (because that's all I could fit at home.)
The PDB for the 440 comes with a pneumatic pushbutton, no solenoid/power needed.

I think even if I hadn't gotten the ATC the PDB would still be worth having.

I'm in exactly that situation, and I concur: It's so helpful not having to open the door, lock the spindle, screw the drawbar while holding the tool, and then reverse all of it.
Also, the door latch has always been a bit finicky, and if I didn't get it snapped correctly, it might un-snap during operation, triggering the spindle lock-out and ruining the cut.
Just saving that from happening once or twice is worth the PDB in itself!

[Bob La Londe]

I promised myself I wasn't going to get all excited abut every little thing with this new machine, but I admit I am excited. I installed the power draw bar on Saturday and the ATC on Sunday.
This is my first ever automatic tool change.


https://youtu.be/S57gpeVsWkk

I did alignment tests, and manual approximations of the steps, but this was the very first time I just let the machine do it. I am excited. I got the tool changer installed and aligned last night. I was headed back to the machine room to shut down the machine, and I just couldn't resist doing an automated tool change atleast once before heading into the house for dinner.

Since I can't see the exact moment I hit the enter button I can't tell for sure, but it counts off as between 6 and 7 seconds for a tool change. Obviously it would be a little longer if the new tool was on farthest travel of the carousel.

[Bob La Londe]

I haven't powered it up in two days. On Monday morning my air compressor threw a rod. Atleast it sounded like it. I finally got a new pump installed and plumbed in yesterday. The tank check valve was leaking and I had to pull it out 4 times before I got it to seal up using an o-ring dropped in between the plunger and the seat. I know that won't last, but it should last for atleast a few weeks. More than enough time for a new check valve to arrive.

Anyway, The various manuals have one or two places where it says, almost emphasizes, that steps need to be done in the specified order. That makes sense, but then those same manuals will have things that need to be done that I either missed in the step wise directions or are missing, but are listed in the illustrations and illustration notes. There are also a few things were the manual is obviously not current to actual equipment being shipped. A mount has been changed or standardized, or something is listed and implied is included in the instructions, but not reflected in the parts list. That sort of thing. Its certainly not insurmountable, but the manuals do need to be updated. I chased down the current manuals on-line and downloaded them to find the same inconsistencies. Like I said its not insurmountable.

Positive Notes: Tormach (different tech support guy) was very quick to send a replacement for a missing part.
Positive Notes: I should have mentioned this sooner, but I was so annoyed about receiving a non working controller I forgot. When I uncrated the machine initially I noted no damage. Later after I had the machine in the machine room on its stand I saw a tear in the Y axis rear bellows. I asked them for a price for a replacement and explained it was likely I damaged it myself since I did not notice the damage when I uncrated the machine. They sent me a replacement under warranty anyway.

I like to try to be fair but honest when I am talking about a company or their product. If something is wonderful I try to mention it, but if something is cr@p I'm not making things up either. I know some folks get defensive when saying anything about Tormach that isn't glowing, but I don't care. Their positives and negatives will be noted.

I have one that may be a positive for some, and a negative for others. Tormach is shown in huge billboard lettering all over the machine. I will probably leave that in one or two places such as the small one on the ATC, but in other places it has to go. I occasionally do a video for one of my YouTube channels and Tormach isn't a sponsor. LOL. If there is going to be huge billboard lettering in the background its got to be for my business. Removing some of that is going to be a lot of work. I know. I know that means Tormach will probably never feature one of my videos but those are really targeted at Tormach owners and potential Tormach owners. Not really part of my potential customer base.

[Bob La Londe]

Oddly enough so far the most difficult thing to install or setup has been the chip pan. Mostly probably because I did it by myself. A trick for others in the future. Punch out the sealant tape ahead of time a the screw holes, and put pins in three or four of them so you can line them up with the pan as you lower it into place. I had to partially re-tape the first side I mounted. when I tried again I used drill bits as pins in several holes and it dropped right into place. The hard part was holding it in place until I got a few screws in.

I expect I'll have similar issue with the enclosure. Big bulky parts.

The power draw bar was pretty easy, and the ATC wasn't to bad with my son's help.

[Bob La Londe]

Well, other than the bad computer controller the only real irritant in the setup was when I put air to it and it hissed at me. I ignored it while I finished the setup and assembly, but finally I had to hunt down the leak. Two of the fittings in the preassembled portions of the air systems were not snugged down. They weren't even finger tight.

As noted in the other thread there is consistently 3 tenths difference in tool height between hand loaded tools and tools loaded from the ATC. I have some ideas about that, but I'll leave that for another day.

Finally mounted the coolant hose. Couldn't find the cute little mounting plate so I just drilled and tapped the head after running my fingers inside to make sure I wouldn't hit a web or anything.

THIS is why I save all those misc plumbing fittings. Got it plumbed in nicely and didn't have to make anything or go to the store.

[Bob La Londe]

Right on the cusp of cutting some actual parts. Been taking my time. (Been busy running lots of jobs on my other machines.) Doing everything right. Learning the Tormach way of doing things and I have a couple issues.

Not So Little Things

The ETS documented as 80mm in atleast a couple places and in their tool height video is not 80mm. The one I have is shorter. I discovered this when I decided to trim down some soft jaws for the vises going on the machine. I just assumed since they went to such effort to preset the software with the ETS set at 80mm and document it that it should be close. Nope. Never dropped. Never abuse. Never left out. Always stored in its case.

Anway while I was doing this I realized that the tool height offset isn't working properly when I changed tools. I can set the current tool work offset (with the ETS height corrected) and its within about .001, but when I changed tools its not even close. I spent a couple hours yeterday really tying to pin it down, but it just doesn't see to pick up the tool height from the tool table and the tool offset DRO goes to red like there is a problem.

I also noted a little bit of backlash in Z while jogging up and down to determine the real height of the tool setter.

I didn't break any tools, but I did trim the bottom of those soft jaws a bit too short.

It seems the documented settings for the air oiler for the ATC etc doesn't put out enough oil. The ATC started stick when it went to the tray load position. It would retract fine, but the last few inches going to the load position started getting slow and jerky. I put several drops of oil directly into the air line and after a few cycles it improved. I also turned up the oiler a little bit. Seems like it might be a good idea to add a valve so I can dump air and make sure the oiler is primed as part of my start up routine.

For anybody who looks at the Tool Maker Package... It could and should cost a little less than buying the separate parts. It includes parts that will never be used. They should be deleted. I have a fair number of parts that will be going on my scrap metal pile along with a control panel that should have never been installed because of course it had to be removed.

On a positive note I really like the finish with the Super Fly Cutter. Impressive is not to strong of a word.

[Steve Seebold]

My 1100 is now 7 years old. I don’t have the ATC on my machine because it wasn’t available yet. I got my machine in July of 2011 and the ATC wasn’t available till October.

I still don’t have the ATC, but with the kind of work I do, who cares.

I did however get the foot pedal. That has been a lifesaver. With the foot pedal, I can change tools in 10 seconds or less, chip to chip.

[Bob La Londe]

My 1100 is now 7 years old. I don’t have the ATC on my machine because it wasn’t available yet. I got my machine in July of 2011 and the ATC wasn’t available till October.

I still don’t have the ATC, but with the kind of work I do, who cares.

I did however get the foot pedal. That has been a lifesaver. With the foot pedal, I can change tools in 10 seconds or less, chip to chip.

The problem is not with the ATC as near as I can tell. The problem is with tool length application from the tool table. It shouldn't make any difference how you change the tool. A manual tool change or an ATC tool change when called from code should read and apply the tool length automatically and properly. I have not heard back from Tormach on the issue, but my next step is to re-install PathPilot from scratch, The used (very used) warranty replacement computer they sent me was already configured so my thought is maybe it was not configured properly for my machine. A fresh installation would allow me to do all the setup from scratch. I have to say I would not buy another preconfigured PathPilot computer from them. It sure didn't save me any time in setup. LOL.

- - - Updated - - -

Just got a reply "
The second issue stems from having a “H” that does not match the “T”. It will turn red and report the height of the “H” you called. Make sure your post processor is matching the “T” and ”H” in your G-code. " I seem to recall a conversation here on this subject before. I had forgotten it until now, but it seems I didn't care for the resolution. Anybody remember the title of that thread so I can search for it and read it.

[Bob La Londe]

Hmmmm... seems I have to copy a post processor and modify it just for Tormach which requires a G43 H(x) on the M6 T(x) command line.

T(x) M6 G43 H(x). I kinda sorta see the logic of being able to use T(y) with the height of T(x), but it sure sounds confusing in real life. I had just planned to keep a tool library in my CAM software setup to match the tool table of the machine.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Hmmmm... seems I have to copy a post processor and modify it just for Tormach which requires a G43 H(x) on the M6 T(x) command line.

T(x) M6 G43 H(x). I kinda sorta see the logic of being able to use T(y) with the height of T(x), but it sure sounds confusing in real life. I had just planned to keep a tool library in my CAM software setup to match the tool table of the machine.

As opposed to what? "G43 Hx" is exactly how tool length comp is turned in in G-code. It does not have to be on the same line as the M6, though most POSTs will do it that way. The G43 can appear before or after the M6, or anywhere else you like, as long as it appears before the motion code EXPECTS length comp to be turned on. It also does not matter whether you do "M6 Tx G43 Hx" or "G43 Hx M6 Tx", "G43 M6 Tx Hy" or any other order of the four "words". The order in which the words are executed is fixed by precedence rules, regardless of the order in which they appear on the G-code line.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Bob La Londe]

As opposed to what? "G43 Hx" is exactly how tool length comp is turned in in G-code. It does not have to be on the same line as the M6, though most POSTs will do it that way. The G43 can appear before or after the M6, or anywhere else you like, as long as it appears before the motion code EXPECTS length comp to be turned on. It also does not matter whether you do "M6 Tx G43 Hx" or "G43 Hx M6 Tx", "G43 M6 Tx Hy" or any other order of the four "words". The order in which the words are executed is fixed by precedence rules, regardless of the order in which they appear on the G-code line.

Regards,
Ray L.

I guess I don't "really" see the value of being able to use the "wrong" tool height. I sorta see it, but I just can't see how its easier or less likely to cause error than just keeping my tool table and tool library for the machine matched up. I would have written the tool change macro to just apply the G43 and H(x) synonymous with the T(x). I'm sure the failing of understanding is mine, but the way it is seems like it would be ripe for human error. It just feels like something that should be managed by the machine and not by CAM. I think the argument is to be able to have one person write code for somebody else in a different place with no knowledge of their tool table, but it seems like it would still require manual code edit at the machine if you tried to use it. No. The more I think about it the less it makes sense than to just automatically use the tool height for the tool selected. It just doesn't feel very efficient. I've already modified a post processor to suit, but its just redundant in application. Change to tool x. Use the height of tool x.

Who here actually uses a different T(x) and H(y) such that x <> y?