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IndustryArena Forum > Community Club House > Machinist Hangout > My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer
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  1. #1
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    My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    My company makes highly detailed scale model replicas. While we already do all of the design work, we want to bring toolmaking, production and assembly in-house.

    Our product is low volume and small, so we do not need large, expensive machines but we do need a very precise CNC mill (at least 4 axis and repeatability of at least 0.05mm) or possibly a small EDM sinker. Our existing suppliers are quite reluctant to help as they would lose business, obviously, but we are determined to make this work – even if we have to start relatively small and cheap to begin with, possibly with used machinery.

    I have many questions, but it may be better to itemise them and tackle each one as we go.

    1. CAM. We are fine at producing production-capable CAD, but we have no idea how to convert that to reliable and excellent quality CAM paths. We use SolidWorks for design. Should we get a plug-in for SW or use a standalone package aimed specifically at the task?

    2. CNC/EDM. Our work is very finely detailed and often on curved surfaces – features can be as small as 0.1mm in some cases, but typically around 0.3mm. Because of low volumes our tooling is aluminium. Can we get a good quality CNC mill capable of producing finished tooling at a reasonable price (time-on-machine is not an issue) or should we look at EDM from the start – and if so, how do we produce the electrode?

    3. Injection moulding. I have a shortlist of a couple machines I'm interested in, both with adequate shot volumes and clamping pressures. If anyone has any recommendations I would be happy to hear them.

    Thank you for reading, I look forward to the advice.
    Steve

  2. #2
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    Apr 2018
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Sorry, have I come to the wrong forum? Of all the threads here there are very few responses to queries. Could someone reading this direct me to a more active and responsive forum to help me please?

  3. #3
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    Mar 2003
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    35538

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    1) An integrated CAM solution is a better option, as it can save a considerable amount of time. Something like VisualCAM for Solidworks.

    Sorry, I don't know anything about EDM or injection moulding.

    You might try asking those specific questions in the specific forums.

    Personally, I just look through the new posts every day, and don't check which forum the posts are in, but some people only read specific forum sections.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  4. #4
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    Dec 2013
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    5717

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Steve, what is your budget for a machine? What work envelope do you need? SW is a good platform and you are already experienced with it, so adding the CAM package to it would make sense.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  5. #5
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    Apr 2004
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    5728

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    If your parts fit within its work area, one of the new ball screw equipped Taig mills would probably do the job, if you're willing to take the time to do it. It can hold those tolerances and the 4th axis is a standard attachment. You certainly won't find anything less expensive that would work.

    As Ger suggested above, Visual CAM for Solidworks would be a good choice; it plugs into Solidworks and offers good CAM functionality. It comes in a range of versions, each one offering more functions than the one below. For supporting the 4th axis, you'd want at least Expert, and I'd suggest the Pro version for making molds, since it offers more remachining strategies, which you'll need to minimize tool marks. I offer discounts on all the Mecsoft products as well as the Taig mills, and can answer questions about them off-list.

    If you only need low-volume aluminum molds, then it's not necessary to get into EDM; that's mostly used to produce duplicate molds as they wear out. It usually requires machining graphite, which takes specially hardened machinery and electronics. Sorry, I don't know much about injection molding machines.

    Andrew Werby
    computersculpture.com
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  6. #6
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    Apr 2018
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Thanks all very much, I appreciate it.

    To clarify a few points, my designer works in a different part of the country to me, where the milling will take place. If she generated the CAM tool paths, would I still be able to download and use it on local software, considering I don't own or use SW myself? Which software will I need to operate the machine with imported CAM paths?

    My work envelope – in fact the largest block area – will be 150 x 150 x 80mm, so I will be working within that. It's probably more likely that one of those 150 measurements will be 100mmm as this is the recommended maximum tool size for my moulder, although it can accommodate larger tools. I also seriously doubt I will be using all of the 80mm either as the parts I will be producing are rarely more than 20mm deep, so we're looking at 40mm max block depth on each half of the tool. What I really need is a machine with excellent control at very small measurements, so I'm guessing something with very fine threads?

    The budget is as low as I can get away with at this stage of development. As income increases so will the budget for upgrades. I'm very happy to start with good used equipment first and then build up gradually.

    Just for curiosity I have been looking at a Denford/Sherline mill as the fine control and ability to use very small mill bits is interesting. I'm not worried about the time it takes to mill away material, but control and precision is very important. If I could add a 4th axis at some point it would make this option more appealing.

    Thanks, Steve

  7. #7
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    35538

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    To clarify a few points, my designer works in a different part of the country to me, where the milling will take place. If she generated the CAM tool paths, would I still be able to download and use it on local software, considering I don't own or use SW myself? Which software will I need to operate the machine with imported CAM paths?
    The CAM software outputs the toolpaths as g-code files, which the machine control software reads to run the machine.

    There are quite a few low cost CNC controls.
    The Centroid Acorn control is quickly gaining popularity.
    Other popular controls are:
    LinuxCNC
    UCCNC
    KMotion
    EdingCNC (more popular in Europe)
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  8. #8
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    Apr 2018
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Thanks Gerry, so if my designer were to instal VisualCAM and output the G-code to send over, I could then import it into the CNC controller to produce the tool?

    Cheers, Steve

  9. #9
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    Mar 2003
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    35538

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Yes, as long as the G-code is correct for the contol you are using. CAM software uses what are known as post processors to tailor the g-code to specific controllers.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
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    32

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Thanks again. As I'm starting from scratch, what would you recommend for the controller? I'll buy a basic small case PC to run it, but what software will I need, or will the controller come with its own software? I'm assuming I don't need Mach3 or similar as I don't need to generate the code, or will I need this to import the code into?

    Cheers, Steve

  11. #11
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    35538

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Mach3 is also a controller. I didn't mention it, because imo it's obsolete.

    Most controllers are a combination of a hardware board and software to control it. In some cases, the software is free, and in others, it's a small fee.

    I would not buy a PC until you know what control you are using, as the control may have specific requirements.

    I'd look into the Acorn from Centroid.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  12. #12
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    Apr 2018
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    32

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Thanks again Gerry, much appreciated.

    Apart from specific choices of controller and software, I think we've covered question 1.

    Question 2 is about the mill – the machine that will do the work. I've spent some time researching, and although I spoke earlier about the Denford, I don't think this is adequate for the precision milling required, with some mill bits down to 0.3mm and the possibility of even smaller work in some locations of the tool.

    I've been looking at the Peatol mill, which I believe is a rebranded TAIG – is that correct? If I could eliminate any backlash and manufacturing tolerances from one of those, it should be a matter of choosing the right motors to control precise movement of the workpiece and spindle.

    Some new questions then arise:
    Is 0.1-0.3mm a viable milling option?
    Is a ball screw upgrade required?
    What control motor options are there for this mill?
    Could the screws themselves be upgraded to a finer pitch, or is this not necessary?

    As always, advice is much appreciated.
    Steve

  13. #13
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    5728

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Is 0.1-0.3mm a viable milling option?

    [These are very small bits, that will require very high spindle speeds to work effectively. They also tend to break quite easily, often when you're trying to touch off to the stock to establish your zero points. If you need them to get the detail of your parts and you need absolutely vertical walls, you've got no choice but to use them. But since you're making molds, which will require some draft anyway, I'd suggest looking into tapered cutters, which give you the same detail at the tip, but are much stronger and resistant to breakage.]

    Is a ball screw upgrade required?

    [They aren't, but they make your life easier by eliminating backlash while taking some load off the motors. If your toolpaths compensate for it when an axis changes direction, you can get away without them, but otherwise you'll find that there's a slight discrepancy between what your plans called out and what you actually achieved in your part.]

    What control motor options are there for this mill?

    [If you get the mill "CNC-ready", then you can put whatever motors you want on them. But it will be a simpler job if you use NEMA 23 motors with 1/4" shafts.]

    Could the screws themselves be upgraded to a finer pitch, or is this not necessary?

    [The normal Taig screws are 20 threads per inch, which is about as fine as you'd ever want. The ball screws are coarser (5 pitch), but still have enough resolution for the tolerances you're talking about, and go faster. It sounds like you're in the UK, so you might want to ask Les Caine about the Peatol machines he carries. ]
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  14. #14
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    Apr 2018
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Thank you Andrew.

    The fine detail work is typically not deep – usually radiator grills or door gaps, that sort of thing, so only the tip of the tool will usually be used. It's not often we go deeper than 0.5mm with a feature that can be anything from 0.3-0.1mm wide so tapered cutters would be absolutely fine.

    The most critical feature of the mill is that it is accurate, so the cavity features in the two halves of the mould line up.

    Cheers, Steve

  15. #15
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Quote Originally Posted by TinyWork View Post
    Thank you Andrew.

    The fine detail work is typically not deep – usually radiator grills or door gaps, that sort of thing, so only the tip of the tool will usually be used. It's not often we go deeper than 0.5mm with a feature that can be anything from 0.3-0.1mm wide so tapered cutters would be absolutely fine.

    The most critical feature of the mill is that it is accurate, so the cavity features in the two halves of the mould line up.

    Cheers, Steve
    For a Mill you should be looking at SkyFire, or something similar, there is a waiting time, you can also specify what you need, in your machine, Ground Ballscrews are a must, AC servos, and a high speed spindle if you need it

    Note the extra High Speed Spindle all ready mounted on the SVM-1L machine in the photos

    SKYFIRE CNC
    Mactec54

  16. #16
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Thanks Mactec, I've been looking into them. Which machine would you recommend as a minimum starting point? Although I am determined to bring production in-house, I don't want to spend too much at the start – I'd prefer to build up machine quality as my experience grows. I've got to learn quite a bit over the next few months so starting relatively simple is probably the best route.

  17. #17
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    May 2006
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    803

    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Just perusing the thread,
    No mention of the part sample to mold?
    This may determine much of the need you have .
    Can you provide a sample part file?
    From what is here you may need jewelry class of machines.
    I have done a few molds.
    if you need serious molding advice,
    Been doing this too long

  18. #18
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    I'm afraid I can't provide sample models or parts for confidentiality reasons. If you could imagine that we produce highly detailed scale models which are fully assembled by hand and range from approx 1:200 scale and 1:40 scale with approx 200-300 parts per model (of the larger scales).

    We are starting to bring production in-house starting with the smaller scale models. Features on those could be as small as 0.3mm and sometimes as small as 0.1mm in some areas.

    Thanks, Steve

  19. #19
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Based on your criteria, I think you need to move out of the hobby class machines into something a bit more industrial. Maybe something like the Haas Compact Mill would do what you want. Not sure if it has enough work envelope for a mold base, but your parts are small so maybe would be fine. You are going to learn a lot about machining H13 tool steel.

    https://www.haascnc.com/machines/ver...act-mills.html

    The other issue will be the CAM software that you will need, 4 or 5 axis. MasterCAM or the full version of Fusion 360, or maybe whatever CAM that works with SolidWorks. I'm sure there are others that would work also.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  20. #20
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    Re: My name is Steve and I'm a manufacturer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Based on your criteria, I think you need to move out of the hobby class machines into something a bit more industrial. Maybe something like the Haas Compact Mill would do what you want. Not sure if it has enough work envelope for a mold base, but your parts are small so maybe would be fine. You are going to learn a lot about machining H13 tool steel.

    https://www.haascnc.com/machines/ver...act-mills.html

    The other issue will be the CAM software that you will need, 4 or 5 axis. MasterCAM or the full version of Fusion 360, or maybe whatever CAM that works with SolidWorks. I'm sure there are others that would work also.
    The SkyFire is not really a Hobby class machine, it's a big step above the norm for a Hobby machine, it will do anything the small Haas mills will do for a lot less cost, they are using aluminum for most of there mold work, if they had to use H13 it is a breeze to machine as well nothing difficult about H13 even in it hardened state
    Mactec54

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