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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > Which Spindle and VFD... again
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  1. #1
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    Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Yet another question about what spindle/VFD to buy... is there a sticky thread on suggestions made by the forum users and their experiences, maybe there should be one if not?

    I'm in the market for a spindle and VFD and have looked at the cheap Chinese models and wondered what the next step up was and who the players are in the market.

    Are there decent models available for $500 - $1K, spindle and VFD or is that pipe dream? Does it make sense to go with a Chinese spindle and quality VFD?

    My main materials are wood and aluminum but I would also like to drill and possibly cut some steel so I think I need a low RPM range for sure, this is a hobby so no business purpose here.

    I've read discussions about the number of poles in the spindle and it seems that the 6 pole units somewhat would fit my purpose but I think I'm giving up a bit in the top end RPM. Maybe the 4 pole is a better option?? I'd like to understand the differences to be able to make a better purchase for overall usage.

    So I'm thinking the following criteria...

    Air cooled with Electric fan
    3kw = 4hp
    2.2kw = 3hp

    4 pole (8k-12k rpm) 15K RPM MAX
    6 pole ( < 8k rpm??)

    - Reasonably priced for the hobbyist
    - Quality electronics

    Thanks for any input and suggestion.

    Adam,
    Gecko G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X and A axis, 1/2-10 5 Start Acme-Z Axis
    4-THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48 48V

  2. #2
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    35538

    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    99% just use the 2.2Kw 2 pole spindles.

    If you are buying a $200 spindle, I don't see the point in a $300 VFD, when the $130 chinese ones work fine. Many people have run them for several years without problems. Most issues appear to be self inflicted.

    Higher quality chinese spindles can be purchased from UGRA.

    Another option is Hertz spindles from Turkey, which you can find on Ebay. (but I don't see any now)

    Teknomotor is probably the next step up. Pricing varies depending on configuration. In the $1000 range.

    You have to watch with the 4 and 6 pole motors, as they often require higher frequency VFD's (600hz-1000hz), which are not as common, and more expensive.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  3. #3
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Thanks Gerry, can always count on input from you.

    Do the square bodies vs round bodies have any benefits or downfalls that you can see?

    I'm thinking of going with an air cooled spindle and thinking an auxiliary fan on top seems to be the best choice.

    ER20 collect seems to be standard, what about RPM's?

    Adam,
    Gecko G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X and A axis, 1/2-10 5 Start Acme-Z Axis
    4-THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48 48V

  4. #4
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Square bodied air cooled probably have a lot better cooling, but I'd expect them to be louder, due to a larger fan. They may have a little more power, if they are rated more than 8 amps, like most round ones.

    RPM really just depends on what you need.

    If my round air cooled spindles go bad, I'll probably go with a square air cooled 2.2Kw with ER25 collet. They are more expensive, though, and usually 18,000 rpm.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  5. #5
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    I was thinking something like this? Square bodied air cooled but an ER20 not ER25..

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...2GMNJQBY&psc=1

    What's the advantage of the ER25?

    https://www.amazon.com/Air-cooled-Sp...ir+cooled+er25
    Gecko G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X and A axis, 1/2-10 5 Start Acme-Z Axis
    4-THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48 48V

  6. #6
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    15362

    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Quote Originally Posted by adam_m View Post
    Yet another question about what spindle/VFD to buy... is there a sticky thread on suggestions made by the forum users and their experiences, maybe there should be one if not?

    I'm in the market for a spindle and VFD and have looked at the cheap Chinese models and wondered what the next step up was and who the players are in the market.

    Are there decent models available for $500 - $1K, spindle and VFD or is that pipe dream? Does it make sense to go with a Chinese spindle and quality VFD?

    My main materials are wood and aluminum but I would also like to drill and possibly cut some steel so I think I need a low RPM range for sure, this is a hobby so no business purpose here.

    I've read discussions about the number of poles in the spindle and it seems that the 6 pole units somewhat would fit my purpose but I think I'm giving up a bit in the top end RPM. Maybe the 4 pole is a better option?? I'd like to understand the differences to be able to make a better purchase for overall usage.

    So I'm thinking the following criteria...

    Air cooled with Electric fan
    3kw = 4hp
    2.2kw = 3hp

    4 pole (8k-12k rpm) 15K RPM MAX
    6 pole ( < 8k rpm??)

    - Reasonably priced for the hobbyist
    - Quality electronics

    Thanks for any input and suggestion.

    Adam,
    The main thing is to make sure the spindle is rated correctly most are not, the biggest give away is the Amp rating 2.2Kw with 6.4 amps is not a 2.2KW spindle, 6 Pole I don't believe to be of much use to anyone, should have lots of torque, but as with most of these spindles they are incorrectly rated

    The 4 Pole gives you the best of both worlds, high speed 12,000 RPM Max and 1,500 minimum speed, they have this low amp rating though, so you end up with not 2.2Kw but something round a 1.5Kw or less rated spindle

    Any good 2.2Kw will have around a 10Amp rating
    Mactec54

  7. #7
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Quote Originally Posted by adam_m View Post
    I was thinking something like this? Square bodied air cooled but an ER20 not ER25..

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...2GMNJQBY&psc=1

    What's the advantage of the ER25?

    https://www.amazon.com/Air-cooled-Sp...ir+cooled+er25
    Just remember Air cooled spindles you can't run at low RPM

    Like this 18,000RPM most likely has a minimum of around 8,000 RPM to12,000RPM
    Mactec54

  8. #8
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The main thing is to make sure the spindle is rated correctly most are not, the biggest give away is the Amp rating 2.2Kw with 6.4 amps is not a 2.2KW spindle, 6 Pole I don't believe to be of much use to anyone, should have lots of torque, but as with most of these spindles they are incorrectly rated

    The 4 Pole gives you the best of both worlds, high speed 12,000 RPM Max and 1,500 minimum speed, they have this low amp rating though, so you end up with not 2.2Kw but something round a 1.5Kw or less rated spindle

    Any good 2.2Kw will have around a 10Amp rating

    ...

    Just remember Air cooled spindles you can't run at low RPM

    Like this 18,000RPM most likely has a minimum of around 8,000 RPM to12,000RPM
    Isn't that why they add an electric fan for the low RPM units so they can cool, I don't think those are "shaft" cooled?

    What would you recommend if you looking for a unit? I really like the idea of a 1,500 - 12,000 RPM unit...
    Gecko G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X and A axis, 1/2-10 5 Start Acme-Z Axis
    4-THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48 48V

  9. #9
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    No, those are cooled by shaft driven fans.
    Spindles with electric cooling fans will specify that, and cost much more. Not sure if I've seen any chinese spindles with electric fans, except for larger ATC spindles.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  10. #10
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    What about something of this nature?

    This looks to have a cooling fan and ER25 collet...I would assume you could just match a VFD to it and away you go.

    https://www.ebay.com/p/HSD-At-mt-107....c100005.m1851
    Gecko G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X and A axis, 1/2-10 5 Start Acme-Z Axis
    4-THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48 48V

  11. #11
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Quote Originally Posted by adam_m View Post
    What about something of this nature?

    This looks to have a cooling fan and ER25 collet...I would assume you could just match a VFD to it and away you go.

    https://www.ebay.com/p/HSD-At-mt-107....c100005.m1851
    Read the motor spec's understand what you need to buy, unless you have 380v you are not going anywhere with that spindle
    Mactec54

  12. #12
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Quote Originally Posted by adam_m View Post
    What about something of this nature?

    This looks to have a cooling fan and ER25 collet..
    That's a shaft driven cooling fan, not electric.
    I wouldn't spend $900 on a spindle sold as "As-Is, for parts".
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  13. #13
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Any model specific suggestions MacTech54 or Ger21?

    Adam,
    Gecko G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X and A axis, 1/2-10 5 Start Acme-Z Axis
    4-THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48 48V

  14. #14
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    I'm not going to recommend something I've never used. These look pretty good, but are pricey.
    GMT Air Cooled CNC Spindle 2.2kW 220/380V 18000 RPM High Torque S | Air Cooled Spindles
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  15. #15
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I'm not going to recommend something I've never used. These look pretty good, but are pricey.
    GMT Air Cooled CNC Spindle 2.2kW 220/380V 18000 RPM High Torque S | Air Cooled Spindles
    Plus who ever brought a spindle like this would need a 600Hz VFD this is too much money for a basic spindle like this
    Mactec54

  16. #16
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    For that price I'd want runout of less than 0.005mm not "less than 0.02mm"
    I can get less than 0.01mm on my Sieg X2!

  17. #17
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Gerry, what are you currently running? and what about that unit you've been eyeballing? I'm interested in your opinion since you have considerably more knowledge than I and certainly would make a better buying choice. I've looked at GMT but I thought they were just an over priced China model, maybe I misjudged.

    mactec54, and yourself what would you recommend? I've read a number of threads where you've commented about the inner workings and seem to have a great understanding and knowledge as well but I didn't see many suggestions on units to buy.

    I'm obviously not buying for a 20K machine and anything above the Chinese low end would be great.

    I can't find price sheets on HSD models or some of the other mid-range? items so who knows how expensive they are...

    Adam,
    Gecko G540, Rack and Pinion Drives-X and A axis, 1/2-10 5 Start Acme-Z Axis
    4-THK HSR 25 Linear Slides, KL23H2100-35-4B, Power Supply-KL-600-48 48V

  18. #18
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    I have a couple of cheap round air cooled spindles on a test bench, but haven't used them on a machine to cut anything. I paid $200 each for them, and am happy so far.

    My take is that you are rolling the dice with any cheap chinese spindle from ebay or Amazon, but your odds are good that they'll be pretty good, and last a long time.

    I don't really have any experience with any others so my opinion probably isn't worth much.

    The spindles that CNC Router Parts sells are supposed to be pretty good. As with UGRA, you pay a premium to buy from a known, quality reseller that supports them.

    A 2.2kw HSD will run between $1500-$1800.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  19. #19
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    OK, a few words from me as well... I know not everybody agree with what I will say, but hey, that's the Internet world... so I don't care.

    I agree with Gerry, would not recommend ANYTHING I never used and have no experience with, not even a coffee machine. But... chances are good that unless you mess it up, you can basically buy ANY spindle motor and you will be happy with. You must however understand what you need, how you want to use your spindle and for which purpose. Are you going to mill a lot of carbon fibre? In that case just skip any thoughts about air cooled spindle (unless you want to die young). Is it stainless steel you are going to use it on with 50mm dia mill bits? If not then why do you think you will EVER need 1.5k rpm? Are you going to use it to earn your daily bread with and will run it H24/7, or is it just for hobby and occasional weekend use? Are you going to use it as most hobby people do, on wood, PCB, plastics and occasional aluminium? In that case you will NOT need anything less than 6krpm, at least not very often and not much lower, and I dare say that it is perfectly fine to use these spindles, even air cooled, down to 6k rpm and even a bit below. I am using mine down to 4800rpm for drilling in aluminium and plastics with absolutely ZERO problems. My recommendation is that your best bet is a 400Hz 24krpm motor. It will most probably have a specified minimum rpm of 6k (even my air cooled 65mm diameter motor has that) and you'll have more benefit of the the upper rpm range than the lower, below 6000rpm, unless your aim is to work on steel and stainless all day, but in that case you need a different machine all together, not just a spindle.

    So my opinion is, that there are more benefits in spending a bit extra on a good quality VFD, which really can deliver what is in the specs and is well documented and have professional support if needed, than buying a cheapo VFD and an expensive spindle. Having a good VFD means you'll KNOW you get what you want, and there is a good likelihood that you'll manage to configure it without much trouble and less risk of blowing it, or the spindle, or both up due to misconfiguration, or that you can trim the adjustments for your needs with the help of the manual. Don't worry about runout and other nerdy things, unless you really need extreme precision, in which case you should also be ready to buy very high quality collets, drill and mill bits AND trim your machine, as well as your software extremely well, take care of tool wear and so on, otherwise there is no point. Again, there is more benefit in spending time on properly aligning/squaring the machine you are using and buying reasonably good quality cutters than an expensive spindle which may promise you a runout you never can measure anyway, so you have no idea if it is true or not, and even if you know it is true, you have no use for it.

    What I am using is a 1.5kW ER11, 65mm diameter air cooled spindle. I have used it for about two years now, I don't use it H24/7 but use it for milling, drilling and engraving plastics (mostly POM), aluminium and PCB. It have been working well for my needs and never failed, stalled, overheated or caused any other issues ever since I installed it. When I am drilling aluminium or using large drill bits, some times run it as slow as 4800rpm but always around 6000rpm. Most drilling works are made below 12k rpm, engraving, drilling and milling PCB between 16-24k rpm, milling aluminium around 16-18k rpm (no problems with welding), so basically I am using the whole range between min and max rpm. If this motor EVER dies on me I will most likely buy a larger one, 80mm diameter with ER16 but still only 1.5kW and DEFINITELY air cooled. Probably would buy a square one, but only because they look better and eliminate the need of a spindle bracket. I don't believe they are better cooled, except if they have active cooling with a separate fan, but I don't think I'll go for that solution because my motor have NEVER EVER overheated, not even after hours of operation. This is probably also an advantage of the use of quality VFD I mentioned above, not just the cooling efficiency. I am not 100% sure of this, but it is very much likely the case.

    So, first thing first, you must decide what you want to use the spindle for, first AFTER that you can decide the power needs, type (air vs. water cooled), min max rpm and so on. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, so it is almost impossible to recommend anything other than what we have or have experience with, and even that must be taken with a grain of salt because one may be lucky, or unlucky, so just because a person have some experience it does not mean his/hers experience is valid for everyone. We have what we have because we, at one stage made our home work and came to the conclusion that what we have is what we needed.

    Good luck. Conclusion: my advice is buy a quality VFD and a cheap 400Hz 24k rpm motor.

  20. #20
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    Re: Which Spindle and VFD... again

    Quote Originally Posted by adam_m View Post
    Gerry, what are you currently running? and what about that unit you've been eyeballing? I'm interested in your opinion since you have considerably more knowledge than I and certainly would make a better buying choice. I've looked at GMT but I thought they were just an over priced China model, maybe I misjudged.

    mactec54, and yourself what would you recommend? I've read a number of threads where you've commented about the inner workings and seem to have a great understanding and knowledge as well but I didn't see many suggestions on units to buy.

    I'm obviously not buying for a 20K machine and anything above the Chinese low end would be great.

    I can't find price sheets on HSD models or some of the other mid-range? items so who knows how expensive they are...

    Adam,
    Without knowing what you are wanting to do with the Spindle you want, or what your machine is, no body can recommend, what spindle you should have, there is no point in having a quality Spindle if your machine can't is not built to handle it
    Mactec54

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