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IndustryArena Forum > Mechanical Engineering > Linear and Rotary Motion > A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine
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  1. #121
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    The history of the GT2 profile is a fascinating study in legal obfustication. You cannot patent something without revealing all the details, and I mean ALL. Gates holds an expired patent on the GT2 profile - US4,515,577, May 1985. Gates have replaced that patent with one on the GT3 profile. Not, mind you, that the ploy has worked: the Chinese make and sell hordes of 'GT2' belts and pulleys. I put GT2 in quote marks there because the Chinese GT2 profile is not quite the same as the Gates one: it is simplified. But this story is excessively simplistic.

    For a start, the whole point of the GT2 patent was to replace the HTD patent which was expiring. Sure, I think it is slightly better than the HTD one.
    The difference between GT2 and GT3 is just cosmetic and designed to get them a new patent.
    When you go into the engineering details, you find that the differences between several of the recent profiles are down in the tens of microns range or less.
    If you examine the GT2 patent you will be amazed at the complexity of the design. Mostly that is crap, designed to deter. Creative obfustication.
    The face of the toothed belts is always covered by compliant fabric, so a difference of 10 microns between two profiles - who cares?
    The big difference between the older wedge-style toothed timing belts and the GT2 class is the rounded profile in the latter, which snugs up tight and eliminates all backlash.
    Gates does license their profile to many mfrs, but by and large they are only concerned about selling belts. Anyone can make the pulleys. (So can I.)

    And yes, I cut my first GT2 pulleys on the XY table. Caution: you will be playing around with longish 1.0 mm diameter cutters: slowly!

    Cheers
    Roger
    And yes this is a good example of a bad Chinese copy which are pretty much junk and you would waste your money buying them if you want any kind of accuracy

    There patent has not expired I told you this before, you can extend an original patent almost indefinitely, just as long as you never let it expire

    The GT2 Patent was not to replace the HTD patent where do you get this BS from

    The GT series was a whole new development and the profile is completely different from any other Belts and pulleys, I have the real Drawings so know what you are saying is incorrect
    Mactec54

  2. #122
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post

    There patent has not expired I told you this before, you can extend an original patent almost indefinitely, just as long as you never let it expire
    You need to add something significant (enough that you would be able to get another new patent if you filed that way,) to extend a patent. It's not just a paperwork and fee exercise.

  3. #123
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by skrubol View Post
    You need to add something significant (enough that you would be able to get another new patent if you filed that way,) to extend a patent. It's not just a paperwork and fee exercise.
    No true at all, My wife is a licensed Patent attorney with a Engineering degree PHD who works with company's doing this type of work every day, you are not even on the same page, no sure why you would post stuff like this
    Mactec54

  4. #124
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Hi Mactec

    Perhaps Patent Law in America is different from the rest of the world?
    I have written my/our own Patents in Australia, with the help of international Patent Attorneys (because we wanted international patents), and those guys went through the whole exercise with me. The patents were granted.
    But I do understand that you can patent some absolutely ridiculous stuff in America. There are web sites which list such absurdities for all to see.

    Cheers
    Roger

  5. #125
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    `Very interesting stuff.....I was under the impression that a patent was only valid for a number of years then it expired for anyone to use.

    The possibility of extending it is very encouraging to those that don't have the backing to go into high volume production immediately or ever.

    I've often wondered just how much a patent would cost (in OZ) if you had a really brilliant idea.
    Ian..

  6. #126
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    The whole idea of a patent is a deal between you and the Public: in exchange for FULLY disclosing your bright idea to the Public, you can have the exclusive right to the commercial exploitation of that idea for a limited time. It goes back hundreds of years.

    With all due respect to Mactec, his claim that you can keep extending a patent almost indefinitely does not accord with the US Patent Office or Basle rules and regs. Basically, no.
    A design patent usually lasts for 17 years. Mind you, if the FDA (for instance) takes 5 years to approve your new wonder drug, you can usually get an extension for the bureaucratic delay. I think there is a 5 year max for this.
    If you come up with a new idea on top of the basic patented idea, you may well be able to get an extension covering the new parts. But after 17 years a competitor can develop a competing product wrt the original idea.
    And so on.

    There was a time when the US system was slightly at odds with the rest of the world wrt the starting date. The rest of the world used the date of filing (simple, clean and unambiguous); America used the 'date of invention'. You can imagine the almighty courtroom battles over proving 'I thought of it a day before you did' ...

    For further discussion, check either at the US PTO or via Wikipedia.

    Cheers
    Roger
    PS: do not try to draw any parallels with the US Copyright system, which has gone completely out of control thanks to machinations of the RIAA, the MPAA, and others.

  7. #127
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    No doubt Mactec will draw himself up to his full height and froth at the gills when he reads this.....I hope this won't become a thread hijack in the making....sigh, some people get so touchy when they get in top rant.

    Personally, I look forward to an ideal solution to a reasonable design for a 4th axis that is backlash free or reduced......more on a direct drive servo with encoder would be good.
    Ian..

  8. #128
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    `Very interesting stuff.....I was under the impression that a patent was only valid for a number of years then it expired for anyone to use.
    Ian..
    Nothing ever expires if you renew the patent, this is what patent thieves are watching for all the time and make a living by taking patents that expire, and reapply, some companies that let patents expire on purpose, as what ever it is would have ended it's cycle

    I have some that have been active since 1982 and the equipment is still being manufactured and used world wide

    Anyone can write a Patent, the whole idea is to make it ambiguous as you can and to cover every possible detail , this is an art to write like they do, that is why you here people like Rodger complain that he can't understand the patent

    I'm doing one right now for a fuel-cell which is extremely complex
    Mactec54

  9. #129
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    Hi Mactec

    Perhaps Patent Law in America is different from the rest of the world?
    I have written my/our own Patents in Australia, with the help of international Patent Attorneys (because we wanted international patents), and those guys went through the whole exercise with me. The patents were granted.
    But I do understand that you can patent some absolutely ridiculous stuff in America. There are web sites which list such absurdities for all to see.

    Cheers
    Roger
    Patent Law is the same all over the world, and every patent has to meet the same requirement's to get excepted, there are no exceptions

    The start date is when you file, ( first to file ) this is not anything to do with the date the Patent is granted, once you file your Patent after a short period you will be first granted Patent Pending, then after the inspectors are done with it you will or will not be granted the Patent, this is a long process
    Mactec54

  10. #130
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Nothing ever expires if you renew the patent,
    Curious. This contradicts the legal discussions I have had with Patent Attorneys, with the brief legal training I have received, and with all the texts I have read.

    You MAY have to keep renewing the Patent during the 17 or 20 year life of the Patent - that is true. At the end of the term the Patent then expires. But a perpetual Patent - nope. I think Samuel Colt did try this via Congress, long ago, but failed.

    As for the GT2 patent: I said the maths for the shape was extremely complex, and it is, but I did NOT say I could not understand it. I can and do.

    Cheers
    Roger

  11. #131
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    Nothing ever expires if you renew the patent,
    Curious. This contradicts the legal discussions I have had with Patent Attorneys, with the brief legal training I have received, and with all the texts I have read.

    You MAY have to keep renewing the Patent during the 17 or 20 year life of the Patent - that is true. At the end of the term the Patent then expires. But a perpetual Patent - nope. I think Samuel Colt did try this via Congress, long ago, but failed.

    As for the GT2 patent: I said the maths for the shape was extremely complex, and it is, but I did NOT say I could not understand it. I can and do.

    Cheers
    Roger
    May be your Patent attorney is not and is just a Patent agent, there are a lot out there that have not passed the bar

    When it expires after the 20 years, you just reapply for another 20 years, But you have to do some kind of change even if it is just cosmetic and a new rewrite of the patent application in most cases is needed, if no one contests it you will have your patent it's as simple as that, I have done this so know it can be done

    Coca Cola is a good example of this as well as many pharmaceutical company's do this all the time
    Mactec54

  12. #132
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    If we're going to divert this thread into a discussion of patent issues, perhaps we should give that a thread of its own. But Mactec is the only person I've heard propound this theory of eternally-renewable patents. Everyone else, including lawyers who post on the web about patent issues, says they do expire after 20 years or less (with certain limited exceptions, such as the one for bureaucratic delay) and can't be renewed thereafter, except by a special act of Congress. Here's a sample:

    "How long is a patent in effect?
    Utility Patents and Plant Patents are valid for a period starting on the date the patent is issued by the Patent and Trademark Office, and ending, at the latest, 20 years after the US filing date of the earliest non-provisional application upon which the patent is based. There are maintenance fees to be paid during the life of a utility patent, and if they are not paid on time the patent will expire earlier than the maximum 20-year-from-filing term. After the patent expires, the invention is available to all.

    Design Patents are valid for a period of 14 years from the date of issue. This will increase to 15 years from date of issue for patents granted on applications filed on or after May 13, 2015, the date that the USA deposited the paperwork necessary to ratify the Hague Agreement. No maintenance fees are due on design patents.

    This section sets forth the general rule, applicable to most patents issued in the last few years. Patents which were filed after May 29, 2000, may have their terms extended for USPTO delays. Patents issued before June, 1995, and still in existence at that time, or which were pending at that time, are subject to different rules, and there are other special rules and exceptions which may affect the term of a patent. For more information, see our page "How do I figure out if a patent is still in force?"


    Can a patent be renewed?
    No, it cannot be renewed. Nor can one pick up the rights to an expired patent. Once a patent expires, the invention is in the public domain.

    Can I have my patent's term extended?
    Some patents have had their terms extended, by private laws in Congress, or by a section of the Patent Law which provides for restoration of patent term lost due to government regulatory delays. In almost every case these were drug patents, where the testing and approvals required by the FDA ate up almost all of the patent term. For nearly all inventions, extension is not an option. "

    Brown & Michaels - Patent Q&A

    "How long is a patent in effect?
    Utility Patents and Plant Patents are valid for a period starting on the date the patent is issued by the Patent and Trademark Office, and ending, at the latest, 20 years after the US filing date of the earliest non-provisional application upon which the patent is based. There are maintenance fees to be paid during the life of a utility patent, and if they are not paid on time the patent will expire earlier than the maximum 20-year-from-filing term. After the patent expires, the invention is available to all.

    Design Patents are valid for a period of 14 years from the date of issue. This will increase to 15 years from date of issue for patents granted on applications filed on or after May 13, 2015, the date that the USA deposited the paperwork necessary to ratify the Hague Agreement. No maintenance fees are due on design patents.

    This section sets forth the general rule, applicable to most patents issued in the last few years. Patents which were filed after May 29, 2000, may have their terms extended for USPTO delays. Patents issued before June, 1995, and still in existence at that time, or which were pending at that time, are subject to different rules, and there are other special rules and exceptions which may affect the term of a patent. For more information, see our page "How do I figure out if a patent is still in force?"


    Can a patent be renewed?
    No, it cannot be renewed. Nor can one pick up the rights to an expired patent. Once a patent expires, the invention is in the public domain.

    Can I have my patent's term extended?
    Some patents have had their terms extended, by private laws in Congress, or by a section of the Patent Law which provides for restoration of patent term lost due to government regulatory delays. In almost every case these were drug patents, where the testing and approvals required by the FDA ate up almost all of the patent term. For nearly all inventions, extension is not an option. "

    https://info.legalzoom.com/renew-patent-23430.html

    Many people are under the impression that once a patent is issued it will last forever. This is not the case. In fact, patents don’t last that long and their term can be affected by where they are issued and also the kind of patent that is applied for. In the United States, for instance, any utility patent that was issued after June 8th 1985 expires after 20 years. A design patent expires after 14 years. After the expiry of a patent the holder no longer owns the technology or intellectual property that was enforced by the patent. Anyone out there is now free to use it to design their own products.

    Exceptions to the Patent Term
    It is important to note that there are exceptions. According to Wikipedia, because of significant backlog of pending applications at the USPTO, the majority of newly issued patents receive some adjustment that extends the term for a period longer than 20 years. This simply means that because it takes so long to issue patents it makes sense that they be issued extensions to compensate for the time lost between when they are filed and when they are issued. People file patents all the time. There can be thousands of unprocessed patents at any one time. The patent office is not able to asses all these patents on time and that is why sometimes it can take years to get a patent granted. The extensions are in a bid to compensate patent owners for these lost years.

    There are other exceptions too. Some pharmaceutical products are issued patent extensions because of how long it takes the government to test them. The testing body, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), is equally overloaded when it comes to testing pharmaceuticals. It can sometimes take more than 7 years to get drug approval. In order to recompense this lost time the patent office will seek an extension. Patents can only be extended through a special act of Congress, which, again, can be a time consuming process.

    How Long Do Patents Last and Can They Be Extended? | Intellectual Pats
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  13. #133
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    May be your Patent attorney is not and is just a Patent agent,
    At those fees? Chuckle. But I do know the difference.

    Coca Cola is a good example of this
    Are you referring to the Trade Secret classification of the Coke recipe? A Trade Secret can be forever - or until someone steals the formula. It is NOT patented.

    But you have to do some kind of change even if it is just cosmetic and a new rewrite of the patent application in most cases is needed
    First of all, a purely cosmetic change probably won't get through the US PTO these days.
    Even if it does get through, It will be very easily contested and invalidated.
    Second, the new patent will ONLY cover the new elements; it will NOT cover any of the original features or Claims.

    Yeah, off-thread and boring to most, but sometimes these basic facts are worth repeating for the benefit of newcomers.

    Cheers
    Roger

  14. #134
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Wow.....Mactec is going to wring his hands in woe and gnash his dentures now that he's been misinformed by his legal council (MRS) and misread the patent laws.

    I think I could rightly say that if you haven't made enough money out of an idea in 20 years then better let it go to the Public Domain and let someone else have a go......by that time the Chinese will have copied it many time over at half the price and so it'll be obsolete.
    Ian.

  15. #135
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Wow.....Mactec is going to wring his hands in woe and gnash his dentures now that he's been misinformed by his legal council (MRS) and misread the patent laws.

    I think I could rightly say that if you haven't made enough money out of an idea in 20 years then better let it go to the Public Domain and let someone else have a go......by that time the Chinese will have copied it many time over at half the price and so it'll be obsolete.
    Ian.
    Don't have dentures but a good laugh all the same, Rodger has been doing some research ( that's is his specialty ) what he is saying is correct, the problem is he has no practical experience to know what can be done after a patent has expired, it does not matter how much research he does he can and will not get the correct answer to this, this take years of working with patents which he has none of, he is just quoting what is the written guide lines of patent law

    The process is depending on what you have and how you want to protect it

    Normally you first file a Provisional Patent Application ( Patent Pending ) this gives you 12 months to decide if you want to do a full utility Patent or not, this costs from $200 if you can do it yourself

    Next is a utility Patent this lasts for 20 years only if you maintain the required payments, if you don't pay miss a payment then the patent expires

    A Design Patent expires after 14 years

    A copyright lasts for 100 years

    A Trademark lasts for ever
    Mactec54

  16. #136
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    Re: A and C axis for a 5 axis milling machine

    Too much for the average mind.....I " invented" a device to save time ,, if that can be the interpretation of something that doesn't exist but is a common design application that anyone and his dog could apply.

    Actually it was a design for a specific purpose and I made quite a bit of dosh with it for a number of years.....a patent didn't come into the picture as I made it so cheap nobody could match my price.

    No doubt if anyone wants to battle a patent infringement they had better be filthy rich to start with as there are hicky dicky lawyers out there that can skin a turd
    Ian.

  17. #137
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    Im winging a modular setup based on an articulating vice of an old cincinatti grinder, 4.5" flange and a 1 1/8 spigot. Im gunna sandwich worm drives between them and make various extension spacers based on the old flange.
    Got a long way to go as i only 1 day a week to indulge in this stuff.
    Wisdom results from foolishness!

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