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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Phase Converters > fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.
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  1. #41
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    I would not connect one side of the secondary to gr (which I assume means ground, normally called ''gnd''). Keep the low voltage isolated from the rest of the world in this case, there are other cases that I would ground one side of the secondary on a control transformer.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  2. #42
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I would not connect one side of the secondary to gr (which I assume means ground, normally called ''gnd''). Keep the low voltage isolated from the rest of the world in this case, there are other cases that I would ground one side of the secondary on a control transformer.
    I'm just wondering here, how else could you wire it in a three wire control. I have ONE hot wire (black), a blue and a green wire going to the stop/for/rev switch. I would assume one of the secondary wires coming out of the transformer would go to that black wire to feed the switch, do I just cap off the other secondary wire in the transformer and let it hang?

    Another thing I've been wondering about. This drill motor was wired for high voltage where it lived at before and ate real 3 phase power for work done. I had to wire it for the lower voltage which the motor plate says 208/ 230v ac. that is now eating 240v ac.+/-, of not so clean 3 phase power. When I rewired the motor to low voltage would there be any changes needed at the motor starter wiring or any other place connected to the drill motor that would need to be rewired? Other than of course changing the heaters to a higher rating.

    Anyway, just for no other reason other than being impatient an possibly a little dumb to boot I tried hooking it up the way I was talking about above. One side of the secondary I hooked up with the black feed wire going to the start stop switch and I drilled a hole in the side of the motor starter box where I screwed in a GND screw and connected the second, secondary wire to it. Turned the RPC on and operated the stop/for/rev switch to see what would happen and it basically did the same thing. the coils would not lock in but would just kick in and out like before. I could hold them in and hold them in by hand and the motor would run okay for awhile. I checked the voltage to the coils and now there is right at 114v ac at each coil when hooked up this way. When running the motor sounded the same as before, nice and quiet with no bings, bangs, or bellowing smoke anywhere. Right now I'm thinking both of the coils are bad, could that be possible?

  3. #43
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    What is the coil nameplate voltage?

    Please post some pictures of the starter box.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  4. #44
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    What is the coil nameplate voltage?

    Please post some pictures of the starter box.
    That's one of the problems I dealing with here there are no numbers anywhere other than what is on the wiring diagram that I posted on page two of this thread see here:

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/phase...nverter-2.html

    in the lower right hand corner of the wiring pic there is a box with the voltage, phase, and in the coil box it looks like something was scratched through and it looks like 110V was written in. There are no numbers on either coil they are long gone. I have already ordered several coils off e-bay but they have all been the wrong coils for this starter. I've searched almost to the end of the internet but I can't find any information on this particular starter. I'm not even sure if Clarke is still in business.

    I ordered a newer type starter on e-bay as you suggested in an earlier post but that ended up being too small I think it was only rated for 2 HP and this motor is 3 HP.. I do have one contactor of the same type that is rated for 3 HP at 230V and I have been looking for another one like it that I can pair it up to but I haven't come across one yet.

  5. #45
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Maybe just buy a couple of these:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/CONTACTOR-D...contactor.TRS0

    You would still need to add a 6 - 10 amp overload relay if you want to install one. Given the application, I would concider the overload optional. The odds of an extended overload on the motor would be unusual on a manual drill press.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  6. #46
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    This is how I would set it up.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Reversing Contactor.jpg  
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  7. #47
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    This is how I would set it up.

    That's sweet!!:banana: I think I could even wire that up. One thing I gotta ask though.....what about a mechanical/electrical interlock? Also the machine has power feed to the spindle, forward and reverse so would that mean I would need an overload switch on all three legs? I might see there not really being a need for the mechanical interlock with the way the stop/forward/rev switch works as long as everything went right . But in my world how often does that work out.LOL It would be really great if I could get away without having to have one because I have several spare 3 pole contactors laying around and I believe a couple of them already overload switches in them. They probably different brands but are all the same type and size.

  8. #48
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    As I recall, the old way of doing overloads was two legs (1940s?). Then at some point they changed to all three legs. For this application I would concider the O/L optional, given that this is going in a home shop. If I were doing this for an industrial customer, it would be done to full NEMA/UL specs.

    In the interest of saving some $$ and simplicity, the circuit above would work. Using contactors with a normally closed aux contact would be needed for an electrical interlock and complicates the wiring. I just showed the simplest way of doing it, adequate for a home shop as long as you are aware of the limitations. You just need to hesitate for a moment at the center OFF position of the switch. If you have a set of contactors with a mechanical interlock then that would work with the above circuit.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  9. #49
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    As I recall, the old way of doing overloads was two legs (1940s?). Then at some point they changed to all three legs. For this application I would concider the O/L optional, given that this is going in a home shop. If I were doing this for an industrial customer, it would be done to full NEMA/UL specs.

    In the interest of saving some $$ and simplicity, the circuit above would work. Using contactors with a normally closed aux contact would be needed for an electrical interlock and complicates the wiring. I just showed the simplest way of doing it, adequate for a home shop as long as you are aware of the limitations. You just need to hesitate for a moment at the center OFF position of the switch. If you have a set of contactors with a mechanical interlock then that would work with the above circuit.
    Thanks for all your time and effort, I really appreciate it. To make matters worst lightning hit a big old oak tree next to the house and blew up every tv in the house along with, two cable modem boxes and a computer. I just got another computer hooked up and our internet service back up. That was one hell of a hit it blew 4 foot long 3 pound pieces of wood over 100' from the base of the tree. I needed some more firewood anyway

    I'm going to have to hold off this project for a couple days to finish up a couple other projects I have hanging over me. I have one contactor that is heavy enough and a o/l switch that will work. I'm just going to keep looking for another one to pair it up with. When I do I'll check back in and let you know how it works out. Thanks so much for your effort!

  10. #50
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    I found another contactor to go with the one I already had. It's and Allen Bradley 100-A12ND3 B and rated for the 3 hp at the voltage I'm running. I have a mechanical interlock switch that I got off e-bay and I now have a bunch of overload devices that can be hooked up to these contactors. I'm sitting here looking at 4 overloads and trying to decide which one to use. I think this one will work and it's an AB 193-BSC 10 B It shows a current range of 6.0-10 A .I've been searching all morning looking for what all these different overloads will do but everything I've been looking at has left me more confused than when I started.

    I'll be able to get back on this in a few more days, I have so much work to get done before winter comes around and so little time to get it all done. Thanks again for all your help.

  11. #51
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    My pleasure to help out.

    I think the 6-10 amp would work fine. I'll keep watching your progress.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  12. #52
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Well I've gotten a lot done elsewhere since I was last on here. I got the roof and some siding on my new shed out back and on the really hot days I have been working on my latest dumpster rescue. A guy got tired of looking at this old Van Norman Brake lathe he had sitting in the corner of his shed and he stopped by on the way to the dump. I looked it over and although it was in really bad shape it looked to have most of the tooling in a bucket and some laying in the bed of his trailer. I told him that I was going to save him some gas money and the dump fee and just to back it up under my lift beam in the shop. Neither of the tables would slide and when I plugged it in it popped the breaker. I wasn't going to mess with it right now but once I got to messing with it the next thing I knew it was all apart and I had all the parts hanging on my paint rack.All it really needed was a good cleaning and scraping away years worth of brake dust that had built up so badly that everything was locked up. I rewired the whole thing and did away with the switch box that was sitting on the top and built a small control panel with the motor and light switch mounted in it. I put circuit breakers in it for the motor and light circuit because I wired it up to where I could power it off one of my welder plugs I have in the shop.

    Once I got it cleaned, painted and put back together I plugged it in and to my surprise the dang thing worked like it was new again. I couldn't believe how quite and smooth it was and all I need to get is a couple belts for the power feed table and a couple other things I want to get for it. Which really brings me to, Well dang! Why couldn't I have had that luck with this old drill press?

    I was looking at it again yesterday and decided to give that old control one more chance. I had gotten a couple coils off e-bay and I replaced the old ones but it still did the same thing. It seemed a little better after I cleaned up the contacts a little but they still wouldn't lock in by themselves. With a little help and the switched the right way the motor would start and run just great. I have finally decided to scrap that whole setup pull out all that old mess and put those two Allen Bradley contactors and the over load switch I got off e-bay in the box.

    These contactors have 4 terminals on the top and bottom, #1 L1, #3 L2, # 5 L3, and a terminal marked 13 on the top. On the bottom there is # 2 T1, # 4 T2, # 6 T3 and the forth #14. #13 and #14 Appear to be an aux contact that is Normally open. And of course they have A1 and A2 terminals. The mechanical interlock switch, I think is also the electrical interlock. It has 4 terminals 2) Normally closed switches, one for each contactor.

    The overload switch has a row of 4 terminals marked 95, 96 which looks to be a normally closed switch and 97, 98 which looks to be a normally open switch.On the bottom there are 3 terminals marked 2, T1....4, T2.....6,T3. It also has an A2 terminal. I have already run the jumper wires between the two contactors but am having a real hard time trying to figure out how the control wires are supposed to be hooked up.

    I have three sets of contactors with o/l switches and they all three have wires going to different terminals so nothing to go on there.The o/l switch I am using has a jumper wire from the A2 terminal down to the 95 terminal and out of the back of the A2 terminal on the o/l, it has a black jumper wire going over the the A 2 terminal on the left side contactor. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything, that's just how that overload was wired when I got it. I don't really expect you to even be able to figure out what all that I have written but I am hopeful some of it get's through.

    I'm going to pull all that other mess out of the old box today and get this new contactor set mounted along with the circuit breakers for the control side circuit. Once that is done maybe things will look a little clearer to be..........Hey, I can dream can't I

  13. #53
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    I worked in the shop a little yesterday because it was so darn hot outside. I pulled all that old stuff out of the control box and started mounting the new equipment to the board. I know you suggested 5 amp circuit breakers for the control circuits but all I could find on hand was a 4 and 6 amp double pole breaker and I had a 15 amp and a couple 2 amp single pole breakers. I used the 4 amp double pole and a 2 amp single pole and if I have to I'll change them later on.

    I added 6 contact blocks to pick up the 3 phase from the machine manual disconnect box. the first 3 are for the A, B, and C lines and I pig tailed off those to the other 3 blocks to pick up the 240v for the transformer and I'm a little confused about where to put the third leg for the motor. I was going to use that third pig tailed terminal block for the third motor lead feed wire. On the old control the third leg went straight to the motor but this O/L has a L3 terminal on it so I have to figure that out. Also you mentioned before that it wasn't the best practice to run the other leg of the 110v control wire to ground. That is how I had it set up and it seemed to work but if there is a better way please let me know. But for now I have it run to a ground contact block and to a ground stud on the control box.

    Now I just have to figure out the control circuit wiring for the two contactors and the O/L wiring. I have always had a hard time with control wiring in general, I don't know why that is but my mind gets in the way of that part of it. I'm posting a few pics of what I have so far and even one or two of my newest toy.

  14. #54
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    That's a good looking Van Norman. The shop I used to run many years ago had one just like it.

    I need to think through what you have there for a bit. Looks like you have all of the parts, just need to hook up the wires to the proper terminals.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  15. #55
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    When you get a chance, make a quick drawing of how you have the transformer wired. Just a quick drawing on paper would be fine.

    The breakers are fine. The X2 line of the transformer should be connected to 96 on the O/L then 97 should go to A2 on both of the contactors.

    FOR should be connected to A1 on one of the contactors, REV should be connected to the A1 on the other contactor.

    I'll whip up a drawing later. Probably should use the the interlock contacts (between the two contactors), I'll figure that out later.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  16. #56
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    As best I can read the numbers on the contactors, I think this is correct.


    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  17. #57
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    The transformer is a Jefferson electric powerformer dry type transformer. Cat # 211-041. It's a .250 KVA single phase 50/60hz. It is a 240/480 primary volts and low volts are 120/240v. or 120V I have it wired for low voltage 240V primary to 120v secondary.

    The connections in the transformer are as follows: for 240 volt primary, interconnect H1 to H3 and H2 to H4 the primary lines connect to H1-H4

    Secondary 120V, interconnect X1 to X3 then X2 to X4 secondary lines connect to X1-X4

    I picked up the primary voltage from the L1 and L2 at the pigtailed connecting block in my pic. I have the secondary wires connected in the transformer to X1 and X4 from there The control wire that goes to the forward /rev lever on the drill goes to the 2 Amp single pole breaker and out to the switch on the drill. The other transformer wire I have going through the Ground connecting block then over to a ground lug in the control box. I tried to draw it out but I don't think you would have ever understood any of that mess.

  18. #58
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    I've been thinking about what you posted back on #55. Wouldn't placing those two wires on # 96 and #97 be splitting two different switches? There are 4 terminals there, #95 and # 96 which look to be normally closed. Then there is #97 and #98 which looks to be a normally open switch.

    I was playing around a little yesterday and I was looking at the mechanical/electrical override switch. This switch looks to be two switches in one case that are normally closed switches, one for each contactor. I wired each switch one side to A1 on each contactor and I put the For and Rev wires from the drill stop/For/ Rev switch to the other terminals on the interlock switch and it seems to be working like it should at least by the VOA meter anyway. That is, the electrical interlock part seems to be working the way it should I just don't know how that will work in a practical sense along with the rest of the wiring.

    I ran the X4 wire from the transformer through the circuit breaker over to the 97 terminal on the O/L, then the X1 wire to ground. Then, from the 98 terminal I tied both A2 wires from each of the two contactors. I didn't hook it up to power that way to see "what would happen" I wanted to wait until you got back from the Labor Day break to see what you thought. It's no point in getting in a big hurry now.

  19. #59
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Oops, you're correct, 95 - 96, not 96-97. Need to get new glasses

    Here is what I think it should look like now.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  20. #60
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    Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Oops, you're correct, 95 - 96, not 96-97. Need to get new glasses

    Here is what I think it should look like now.

    Thanks I'll try that and see what happens when I get back in the shop.

    I was messing around with this yesterday walking through each step in the wiring looking to see what happens when you do this or that and I think I'm close to what you have drawn out I'll have to check to be sure.

    Is it normal for one leg of the line voltage to be much higher to ground than another. As I was playing around yesterday I was talking voltage readings at different places and on L1 to gr I have 119.1 v, L2 to gr I have 120 v but on L3 to gr I have 206.5 v I never did get very far with the fine tuning this RPC, I tried changing the capacitors around some but I never could get much out of it so I decided to wait on that until I get this drill motor straightened out before I tackled that part. But after yesterday looking at these voltages I'm wondering if that may be part of the problem. I have 129.2 v coming out of the transformer and I don't know if that is a bad thing and may be causing the control problems. My line voltages are still about the same as they were when I started out. L1 to L2 239.4V...L1 to L3 249.6V and L2 to L3 228.5V

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