[lin842]

I started this project several weeks ago. I have one of those Cincinnati Bickford 21" Super Service upright drill presses that I wanted to use in the shop but it is 3 phase. That meant it would have to sit around taking up space unused or I could build a RPC to run it. I did a lot of research before I started and had been collecting items for this build for like 3 years. I was on another site one day and was asking around for help in getting started and got some good, and bad information. Some responses like, just go out and buy one already built, by people that know what they are doing. You are going to burn your building down and then there was this one where a guy claimed it was so easy that he could put one together from scratch in around 1/2 hour.

I didn't want to buy one already made, I already had most of the parts to put one together I just needed some help getting started. Then I found this place on the net that will sell you a kit with everything you need but the panel box and a idler motor so I bought one of the 10 hp kits. That was pretty much a waste of money because the potential relay that came was bad in the box and before getting it running I had to replace both of the cheap china made contactors at least I got some capacitors that I could use. I called these people several times about the problems I was having but they kept saying someone would call back but they never did.

To make a long story short, I finally got it to start and run like it should and even added a stop button and light to tell that it was on. When I checked the voltage I was getting 229.7 between two legs, 241.5 on another pair and 249.8 on the last pair. That is from my poor memory as I don't
t have my notes with me now but I can take exact measurements and post them if someone is willing to help me out.

I fiddled around for days waiting for someone to help at other sites and one day I decided to go ahead and hook the thing up to the drill motor to see what would happen.....I mean what's the worst that could happen, right? Other the obvious of-course, like getting electrocuted or setting the barn on fire. But what the heck I needed to try it out just to see.

I got everything a set up, made sure the spindle would turn and not locked for some reason then powered it up and pulled the lever to forward and all I got was a clunk or two. I moved the lever to rev and it did the same thing. Now I'm thinking that something was wrong with the RPC and a couple days and a few sparks later I finally decided that there was nothing there that would keep the drill from at least starting up. I tried it again with the same results so I decided to try another motor I had that was a 1 hp, 3 phase motor I had laying around. I had to rewire it for low voltage and then hooked it to the RPC and it started right up.

I finally found out that if I manually pushed in the contactor the drill would start up and run like it should so that meant something in the start circuit was giving me a problem. I knew the thing was working because they were using it the day the safety man came in and told them it had to go. I rescued the old girl from having to take the trip to the dumpster and carried it home and it's been sitting in the shop now for almost a year. My brain wouldn't let me believe that something was wrong with the drill so I went back thinking I had a wire somewhere in the wrong place between it and the RPC. I was begging for help from every where I could find but everybody is so busy or the ones I found that was willing to help were more clueless than I was. I wanted to get this thing running but I didn't want to have to pay somebody to stand there and hold the contactor in to make that happen so I sat there for like three days staring at the wiring in the RPC and at the control panel on the drill. Then later on after the thing had drove me to drinking and after about 15 maybe 20 or so bud lites I was poking around in the control and about that time the light hit one of the overload switches and I thought I could see a small crack in the housing. Looking at it closer I could see some contacts in the back end and when I grabbed the wire to move it out of the way the whole thing just broke off and the wire along with what was left of one half of a contact set. Well I think I found that problem.

The real problem is where to find parts for one of these old contactors. I've searched and searched all over the net and I can't even find anything on the controls that are on this machine. It in a Clark panel but I have had no luck finding anything that relates to this control anywhere. I guess what I'm wondering is if I can't get parts for this control, what else could I replace it with? And also If there is someone out there that would be willing to help me fine tune the RPC that would be much appreciated. Thank you and sorry for such a long post.

[Jim Dawson]

I would just replace the contactors, just match the HP on your DP motor.. A quick Ebay search: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...actor&_sacat=0

As far as balance, look at the balance when the RCP is loaded, the unloaded balance looks close enough to start with. My home built 15HP RCP runs about 1 volt difference on the legs when loaded.

[Eldon_Joh]

the coils on the contactors need to be wired across the single phase supply line, not the third leg of the rpc.

when you start the motor, the third (generated) leg of the rpc often drops in voltage enough to cause the contractors to open.

[lin842]

I would just replace the contactors, just match the HP on your DP motor.. A quick Ebay search: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...actor&_sacat=0

As far as balance, look at the balance when the RCP is loaded, the unloaded balance looks close enough to start with. My home built 15HP RCP runs about 1 volt difference on the legs when loaded.

Thanks for that link I was looking around on e-bay at contactors but I probably didn't have reversing in the search so I won't coming up with much. I've got a bunch of different contactors that I have salvaged out of old controls and I'll have to look around to see if I have a locking device to put two together. That would probably be the cheapest route.

Have you got a power factor capacitor on your RPC? Just how important is that to having a complete setup? I'm leaving it like it is now until I get the drill motor working like it should and then I'll do the final tune up once that is done. Right now it's sitting on the floor hooked up to jumpers because I wanted to get it working like it should before I hang it in the ceiling. I still need to run a wire for the remote master switch the start and stop buttons and a power on light and another to light when it's running. I think I have an extra panel box somewhere to use for that. Thanks again!

[lin842]

the coils on the contactors need to be wired across the single phase supply line, not the third leg of the rpc.

when you start the motor, the third (generated) leg of the rpc often drops in voltage enough to cause the contractors to open.

Yes I was wondering about that also and I was in the process of looking into that when I found that bad connection on that reverse relay. I'll have to look some more at how that old set of contactors are wired on the incoming side to see if something needs to be changed. Would that be as easy as flipping two of the lines at the 3 pole disconnect that is on the machine itself? Thank you also, this is very much what I was looking for.

[Jim Dawson]

Thanks for that link I was looking around on e-bay at contactors but I probably didn't have reversing in the search so I won't coming up with much. I've got a bunch of different contactors that I have salvaged out of old controls and I'll have to look around to see if I have a locking device to put two together. That would probably be the cheapest route.

Have you got a power factor capacitor on your RPC? Just how important is that to having a complete setup? I'm leaving it like it is now until I get the drill motor working like it should and then I'll do the final tune up once that is done. Right now it's sitting on the floor hooked up to jumpers because I wanted to get it working like it should before I hang it in the ceiling. I still need to run a wire for the remote master switch the start and stop buttons and a power on light and another to light when it's running. I think I have an extra panel box somewhere to use for that. Thanks again!

My pleasure to help out.

Yes, I do have power factor correction, 25mF, and maybe could use more. It reduces the apparent input power to the RPC so the system is more efficient. I have mine set up so I can switch in capacitors for tuning. A bit overkill but it looks cool and I'm running a CNC machine so I wanted to be able do some fine tuning for balance. To just run a 3 phase drill press the balance is not so critical.



I'm using a 1/2 hp pony motor to spin up the idler motor to reduce startup load, the lights don't even flicker when I fire it off.

[Bdrangdo]

I have encountered some machines, Colchester lathes for example that require a neutral line to drive the contactor coil. Without the neutral to provide the 240 volts for the coil they will not run. Maybe it is just a peculiarity of UK wiring, often it is not available and the coils are changed for 415v just to get them running. I am making the assumption there is no neutral line on a rotary converter. Just a thought.

[Jim Dawson]

I have encountered some machines, Colchester lathes for example that require a neutral line to drive the contactor coil. Without the neutral to provide the 240 volts for the coil they will not run. Maybe it is just a peculiarity of UK wiring, often it is not available and the coils are changed for 415v just to get them running. I am making the assumption there is no neutral line on a rotary converter. Just a thought.

North American wiring is a bit different than UK wiring. Normally there is no neutral on a 3 phase system, but there are exceptions to this. The contactor coil power is normally derived from 2 legs of the 3 phase, or is supplied by a small control transformer that is powered from 2 legs.

[lin842]

My pleasure to help out.

Yes, I do have power factor correction, 25mF, and maybe could use more. It reduces the apparent input power to the RPC so the system is more efficient. I have mine set up so I can switch in capacitors for tuning. A bit overkill but it looks cool and I'm running a CNC machine so I wanted to be able do some fine tuning for balance. To just run a 3 phase drill press the balance is not so critical.



I'm using a 1/2 hp pony motor to spin up the idler motor to reduce startup load, the lights don't even flicker when I fire it off.

That's a very nice looking setup you have there. I just sat here for the past couple hours or so looking on e-bay for something that I could get this going with and bought a cheap reversing contactor. I didn't want to spend to much on this at this point just trying to get it running then I can beef it up if needed. I'm going to try and post some pictures of my setup that is if I can figure that out. Like I said once I get the Drill working I'll see if I can try and beg, borrow or if needed steal some ideas from you to finish it up. Thanks so much for your help.

[lin842]

Well here goes a few pics of what I have so far.

[Jim Dawson]

That is a nice looking old drill press, would look good sitting in my shop

I see you are going with a pony motor also, really reduces the start load on your shop wiring. Your control panel looks good!.

If that's the broken relay in the picture, it looks like a overload relay rather than one of the contactors. You may be able to just replace that. Never seen one quite like that one, looks like it might be from the 1940's or so.

[lin842]

That is a nice looking old drill press, would look good sitting in my shop

I see you are going with a pony motor also, really reduces the start load on your shop wiring. Your control panel looks good!.

If that's the broken relay in the picture, it looks like a overload relay rather than one of the contactors. You may be able to just replace that. Never seen one quite like that one, looks like it might be from the 1940's or so.

Thanks, I couldn't believe it when my son called me one day and said....Quick!! hook up the trailer and come see what they are throwing out now. I had just been in the plant a month back when it was the original color. It looked good then but some big wig wanted it a different color and they got one of the kids that works part time to throw a slam bam paint job on it. To me it looked better the other way but I'll take it just the same. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've seen them throw away. It makes me sick every time I think about the time I was over there and there was 3 big lathes that were in perfect working order one was only like 6 years old and the other two were less than ten years old. In the 40 foot dumpster next to it was all the tooling that went to all of them plus another 15 or 20 huge Kennedy tool boxes. I mean these were brand new boxes that were 6 feet long, 4 feet deep, and 5 feet tall that were full of every king of machine tool that you could imagine, most of it never used before. This was back a few years ago when everybody was moving operations to china. They filled a whole ship up full of machines, tooling, and other related equipment and what they couldn't get on deck went into the dumpster. They were talking about having an auction and sell off the stuff but the big wigs wanted it off the floor now so they could bring in more stuff just like what they had just hauled off.

Then there was this 50 ton travel crane that went from one end of the plant to the other and was like at least 60 feet wide that they decided they didn't like. They paid a rigging company over $100,000 to take it down and haul it off. I knew a couple of the owners of that company and they couldn't believe their good fortune. Not only did they get paid to haul it off, they sold it and got paid to install it in another plant just down the street. They got another cool $160,000.00 for that and all it took them was a little under 3 weeks from start to finish. They just got finished with another project where they had to take out a 100 ton press and all of it's related tools and equipment. That thing had a foot print of roughly 70'x70' on one level and all the hydraulic equipment was on a lower level and took up about the same amount of space. I don't know what those guys got to take it down but they worked on that for over a month. They were crying the blues because they had that sold too but by the time they got it apart all they had was scrap. Those big plates that it was made of were to heavy to handle with crane they could get into the building so they had to cut them in pieces to get it apart. When first built they built the press and then built the plant around it. I could go on but my tummy hurts from thinking about it, besides I feel I have gone off track a little.

Back to that relay.....Yes it's old. inside the panel was a date I think was the date that someone first installed it and that was sometime in 1952. I'll post a couple more pics if I can find them. I looked on e-bay and I couldn't find anything like that. I'm sure it's out there somewhere it just putting the right thing in the search bar to fine it. I'm going to hold on to it because one day I might come across the parts to put it back together because I would like to keep it as close to original as possible.

That pony motor that is mounted to the frame is not being used at this time. At first I was going to build this using the 20 hp motor I have but after thinking about it I decided to just use one of the 10 hp motors that I had. I don't think I'll ever need more than that but if I do all I would have to do is replace the 10 with the 20 hp I have and add a few capacitors. When I'm done with this I think I'm going to build another one with the other 10 hp motor I have and try to sell this one to get enough to buy the parts to build that 20 horse unit. All those motors were dumpster rescues and all three were brand new motors that had never been hooked up to anything. I see brand new 50 and 100 hp motors in the dumpster all the time and finally one day I saw about 40 or so motors from 5 to 25 hp and I couldn't help myself and I had to drag the three I got out of there and carry them to safety.

That 20hp motor is a 3450 RPM 12 wire motor and I couldn't decide if that would be a good choice for a RPC but I'm still looking around to see if I could make it work.

[lin842]

Oh I for got to add those pics. Note the date that is written on the control dia.

[Jim Dawson]

Maybe it makes somehow sense to scrap out a whole plant, but not to me. But then I'm not the CEO of a large company.

That is an oldie, maybe time to replace the whole thing. Here is a good replacement it https://www.ebay.com/itm/Allen-Bradl...gAAOSw~y9ZB5ti

[lin842]

Maybe it makes somehow sense to scrap out a whole plant, but not to me. But then I'm not the CEO of a large company.

That is an oldie, maybe time to replace the whole thing. Here is a good replacement it https://www.ebay.com/itm/Allen-Bradl...gAAOSw~y9ZB5ti

Thanks I saw that one the other day and I started to buy it but I found another one a little cheaper. I bought that one just for the locking device because I have two identical contactors and I was going to put those together or use then a spares. Then a little further down the page I found a new locking device for like $4.95 and I bought that too. If these will work I'll have two complete units. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to wire them up.

And yes, it is such a shame to scrap the stuff they do but space to them is everything, if something gets in the way, out it goes. I've seen those dumpsters so full of stuff that the truck that came to pick it up couldn't even lift it and they had to dig some of the stuff out with a folk truck and load it on another truck. I'll have to tell ya, that day I saw those beautiful lathes getting loaded on that truck I was seriously considering a hyjack attempt. If I had just got there a day earlier I may have been able to sweet talk the floor manager into putting one on my trailer rather than the scrap bin. Sometimes it works out that way but in this case I was too late. Once anything gets in the dumpsters they don't want anyone rooting around in there. Although I have dragged a few things out of them before but I try to go by the rules if I can......sometimes the temptation is just too much though. If I could have gotten my hands on a folk truck that day those lathes were all piled up in the dumpster they would have lost both the scrap and the truck, well I would have returned the truck.

[Al_The_Man]

In looking for a replacement contactors there are many options, ebay etc, I prefer the DIN style made by Telemecanique, also the O/L's now are typically electronic in place of the old thermal heater style.
In the case of requiring a low voltage transformer for the control supply, N.A.and Europe allow one side of the secondary to be taken to the service ground conductor and this now serves as Neutral.
Al.

[lin842]

In looking for a replacement contactors there are many options, ebay etc, I prefer the DIN style made by Telemecanique, also the O/L's now are typically electronic in place of the old thermal heater style.
In the case of requiring a low voltage transformer for the control supply, N.A.and Europe allow one side of the secondary to be taken to the service ground conductor and this now serves as Neutral.
Al.

I have a couple of those type contactors accept these are Asea brand but I didn't have that contact interlock block to lock them together. I did find a reversing contactor with the exact same ASEA brand contactors that I have so I'll have a spare if I ever need one again. I also found a new connecting block after I bought those and I picked that up also. I'm pretty sure I have an overload switch for those contactors in a bin somewhere I'll just have to find it.

Oh, and I started putting together a distribution box yesterday to run my wiring from the RPC and out to the stuff I want to run. I have a couple smaller 3 phase motors that I can use for a couple of projects that I've had on the back burner for a long time now. But speaking of lower voltage coils like 120v couldn't I just run an extra wire to use as a neutral from my distribution box into the motor control panel?

[lin842]

Well I finally finished my distribution box that I put together from parts from a couple old service panels I had laying around. I realize this probably isn't quite up to code but it will have to do because I haven't been able to come across a 3 phase panel that I could afford at this time. I wired the RPC through this panel and out to the other side of the wall to my machines. At first I was just going to run cords with plugs on them to the drill motor and the Baldor carbide tool grinder but I decided to build a small box and put two plugs for the motors and a 120v plug for the light on the grinder so I could just plug them in and not have wires all over the place.All that wiring is done and I tested it out and all is good.

I finally got that reversing contactor and now I'm not sure it will be heavy enough for that 3 hp motor. It turned out to be An AB contactor set rather than the ASEA like I thought , I don't know how I got that mixed up but I had a couple of the AB contactors too that are the same so I can still make something out of it. The one I got was a, 100-A09ND3 and looking at the it says it's only good for a 2hp motor when used for 3 phase. It says it's good for 20 amps max load.

I have another AB contactor that is 100-A12ND3 but I only have one and that says it's good for 3 hp on 3 phase power. I was wondering if I could pair up that one with one of the others and use the heavier one for the forward and use the smaller one for the reverse. That's just a thought I had.

I also have another problem I need to figure out and that is with that grinder motor. There is no wiring diagram on the tag of the motor and I think it's wired for 440 It had a transformer on it to supply the proper voltage for the light but I'm taking that off and just running a light cord to the panel I made. The problem is that it is a 9 wire motor but there are three sets of wires coming out that are marked 1-2 and 3 and not the usual 1-9 like all the other motors I have seen. Has anybody seen a motor wired like this before?

[Jim Dawson]

Well I finally finished my distribution box that I put together from parts from a couple old service panels I had laying around. I realize this probably isn't quite up to code but it will have to do because I haven't been able to come across a 3 phase panel that I could afford at this time. I wired the RPC through this panel and out to the other side of the wall to my machines. At first I was just going to run cords with plugs on them to the drill motor and the Baldor carbide tool grinder but I decided to build a small box and put two plugs for the motors and a 120v plug for the light on the grinder so I could just plug them in and not have wires all over the place.All that wiring is done and I tested it out and all is good.

:cheers:

I finally got that reversing contactor and now I'm not sure it will be heavy enough for that 3 hp motor. It turned out to be An AB contactor set rather than the ASEA like I thought , I don't know how I got that mixed up but I had a couple of the AB contactors too that are the same so I can still make something out of it. The one I got was a, 100-A09ND3 and looking at the it says it's only good for a 2hp motor when used for 3 phase. It says it's good for 20 amps max load.

I have another AB contactor that is 100-A12ND3 but I only have one and that says it's good for 3 hp on 3 phase power. I was wondering if I could pair up that one with one of the others and use the heavier one for the forward and use the smaller one for the reverse. That's just a thought I had.

I think I would be looking for a proper reversing contactor for the application. Trying to cluge together mismatched hardware might not be the best idea.

I also have another problem I need to figure out and that is with that grinder motor. There is no wiring diagram on the tag of the motor and I think it's wired for 440 It had a transformer on it to supply the proper voltage for the light but I'm taking that off and just running a light cord to the panel I made. The problem is that it is a 9 wire motor but there are three sets of wires coming out that are marked 1-2 and 3 and not the usual 1-9 like all the other motors I have seen. Has anybody seen a motor wired like this before?

I'm a bit confused, low voltage normally has 3 pairs (1-7, 2-8, 3-9) coming out, and 4-5-6 connected together in the motor box. Does yours have the other 3 wires connected together in the box? If so, then I would say it's wired for low voltage (230V)

[Al_The_Man]

Typical reverser contactors have a mechanical interlock as well as a electrical one, IOW physically coupled together .
Al.