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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking > Diemaking / Diecutting > Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press
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  1. #21
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    Aug 2014
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    35

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    The standard motor option was 220V single phase. As I said, because my garage doesn't have 220V and didn't want to expense of wiring it for 220v I asked them if they can put in a 110V motor, since it was only 2 HP. They agreed to saying they have done this for customers in the past. I guess its time to get an electrician to take a look at it and sort it out.

  2. #22
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    Nov 2012
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    1267

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    A breaker with no current rating is a bit weird even for the Chinese. :-) Don't worry about the 50/60Hz, the breaker and the motor would handle either one.

  3. #23
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post
    Yes, the wires they use coming out of the breaker in the machine are green and red with no ground. They used a 3-part wire cable but the third is not used. I don't know if they use different colors for different polarities there or its a mistake by them.

    I believe they test ran it as i said because there is residual hydraulic fluid in it that was pumped out after testing. They would have caught any wiring mistake if there was one. The wire that was hooked up to the cable going to the outlet box for the machine can be seen on the lower left, to the left of the breaker. Its just two wires, green and red.

    They many times use different colors. Green is a power conductor in some Chinese 3 phase installations, green/yellow or clear being ground where they provide a ground. This of course does not follow Western standards. Would replace the cable to the ''breaker'' with a piece of #10 SO cord, and get the grounding connected properly to North American standards.

    I say ''breaker'' because that may be just a switch rather than a breaker.

    This still doesn't solve the underlying problem of high current on startup. Like I said above, adding capacitance to the start capacitor may help, normal start capacitance for a 2HP motor, as near as I can find, is around 800mF.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  4. #24
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post
    The standard motor option was 220V single phase. As I said, because my garage doesn't have 220V and didn't want to expense of wiring it for 220v I asked them if they can put in a 110V motor, since it was only 2 HP. They agreed to saying they have done this for customers in the past. I guess its time to get an electrician to take a look at it and sort it out.
    An electrician sounds like a good plan. Try to find a guy that has industrial/commercial experience.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  5. #25
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    Apr 2015
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    170

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Might be a good idea to fit a suitably rated thermal overload on to the breaker, it clearly does not have one, that said it might cause even more problems. I always understood that this type of machine was purely mechanical using a clutch and an eccentric driven by the flywheel, why would it have hydraulics in it. I have seen similar machines that are hydraulic but they would not need a flywheel, very strange.

  6. #26
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    Aug 2014
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    35

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    I figure they reduced the size of the motor by preserving the motor's inertia, keeping it up to speed using a flywheel. The hydraulic ram in the rear creates 20T of pressure, so if the ram diameter is 5" thats 4000 psi needed to reach 20T.

    The chinese manufacturer asked for a video of it on start up so they can see what its doing. I asked them to first take a look at the photo to check the wiring and questioned the 2 pole breaker on the machine for 110v use.

  7. #27
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    Jan 2005
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    15362

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post
    I figure they reduced the size of the motor by preserving the motor's inertia, keeping it up to speed using a flywheel. The hydraulic ram in the rear creates 20T of pressure, so if the ram diameter is 5" thats 4000 psi needed to reach 20T.

    The chinese manufacturer asked for a video of it on start up so they can see what its doing. I asked them to first take a look at the photo to check the wiring and questioned the 2 pole breaker on the machine for 110v use.
    It won't have a flywheel if it is hydraulic

    You should not have a 2 Pole Breaker, it needs to be changed for a single Pole for 120v Single Phase, so the rest of the wiring would be incorrect as well, In China they would not of tested it for 120v only would of run it on 230v Single Phase

    Most likely once the wiring is corrected it will run, none of what you have there is to electrical code, so needs to be corrected before you power it up, if you can't do this your self, then you need an Electrician that has experience with machinery
    Mactec54

  8. #28
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    Dec 2003
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    24216

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post
    My guess is the amp spike on start up is going over 30A, but don't know how to get around this problem.
    Does anyone have experience with the amperage spike on start up with motors attached to a flywheel?
    All the presses I have been involved in use 3 phase motor with a star/delta starter.
    The flywheel presents a Huge load on start up.
    An induction motor at switch on, is essentially a transformer with a shorted turn secondary, so it is very important to get it up to rated run mode ASAP. The flywheel presents a delay in this process, so personally I am not at all surprised with the results you are seeing.
    (particularly on 120vac)
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  9. #29
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    Apr 2015
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    170

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It won't have a flywheel if it is hydraulic

    You should not have a 2 Pole Breaker, it needs to be changed for a single Pole for 120v Single Phase, so the rest of the wiring would be incorrect as well, In China they would not of tested it for 120v only would of run it on 230v Single Phase

    Most likely once the wiring is corrected it will run, none of what you have there is to electrical code, so needs to be corrected before you power it up, if you can't do this your self, then you need an Electrician that has experience with machinery
    It could be hydraulic as unlikely as it seems, the pressure is only built up in the last couple of millimeters of movement as the arm goes down and the cutter contacts the material, the rest of the movement is almost off load, we call it daylight movement in the UK when applied to big power presses. I must admit I have never encountered a pump with a flywheel but this is Chinese so anything goes. I still think the motor start winding's will get extremely hot if not burn out completely before that flywheel is up to speed even if it is wired correctly.

  10. #30
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    Aug 2014
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press


    The hydraulic tank is part of the casting and takes 15 gallons.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails clicker press hydraulics.jpg  

  11. #31
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    I didn't know there was a flywheel drag to consider, especially being only a 2 HP motor it didn't look like that would be an obstacle at 110V. Over that, sure 220V is a natural but who knew?

  12. #32
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    170

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    I'm guessing that this machine was originally designed to have a three phase motor on it. As a rule single phase motors can't be overloaded without stalling and then burning out, three phase motor on the other hand can be (and often are) overloaded for a short period of time. The few seconds that the high pressure is actually needed would be easily managed using three phase albeit by momentarily overloading it. A single phase motor will just stop dead and start to emit the magic smoke, hence the flywheel. You have a double problem really because you also have the drag of the oil in the pump for the motor to deal with as well as the inertia of the flywheel. I would imagine any professional electrician would take one look at it and then walk away, if it was my machine I would swap the motor for three phase one and use an inverter and then you can control the acceleration during start up. A new 2HP motor in the UK would be around £120 and the inverter about £250.

  13. #33
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    As bad as the reputation is for chinese stuff I can't believe they would offer it in 110V if it was unworkable design. They mentioned early on that they have supplied presses with 110V before to customers who requested it, so if they had serious issues with those, then I doubt they would offer them again.

  14. #34
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    All the presses I have been involved in use 3 phase motor with a star/delta starter.
    The flywheel presents a Huge load on start up.
    An induction motor at switch on, is essentially a transformer with a shorted turn secondary, so it is very important to get it up to rated run mode ASAP. The flywheel presents a delay in this process, so personally I am not at all surprised with the results you are seeing.
    (particularly on 120vac)
    Al.
    He does not have a flywheel just a hydraulic pump
    Mactec54

  15. #35
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post
    As bad as the reputation is for chinese stuff I can't believe they would offer it in 110V if it was unworkable design. They mentioned early on that they have supplied presses with 110V before to customers who requested it, so if they had serious issues with those, then I doubt they would offer them again.
    You don't have a 110v system in NA you have 120v

    If you do as I have said and have it wired correctly you will be running with no problems, you don't have a flywheel, just a hydraulic Pump, so your 120v 2Hp motor will run this no problem, you could do it with a 3/4 Hp motor if the pump was smaller

    The wiring you have is incorrect, and is what is causing your problem, once this is corrected you will be running it would take me about 15 Minutes to correct the wiring, you need a new input cable that has 3 wires for your 120V Single Phase connection
    Mactec54

  16. #36
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post
    As bad as the reputation is for chinese stuff I can't believe they would offer it in 110V if it was unworkable design. They mentioned early on that they have supplied presses with 110V before to customers who requested it, so if they had serious issues with those, then I doubt they would offer them again.
    It will run just fine, just correct the wiring, your power is 120v not 110v
    Mactec54

  17. #37
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post

    The hydraulic tank is part of the casting and takes 15 gallons.
    Clean the tank out and change the filter before you add any new oil

    And I hope you did not try running it without add the correct Hydraulic oil
    Mactec54

  18. #38
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    35

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press



    A video of the clicker press tripping the 30A breaker on start up.

  19. #39
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    Dec 2013
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    5717

    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    You have no chance of getting that machine to run on your existing power supply. I assume that is a dual voltage motor and it will operate on 240V. I'm guessing you need at least 30 amps of 240V to start it, that flywheel is huge. You really need to find out what the starting current is, this test requires a clip on amp probe. You may have to adjust the values of the start and run capacitors to the correct values if you go with 240V. If you are not comfortable doing this work yourself, then hire a qualified industrial electrician to get you going.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  20. #40
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    Re: Tripping Breaker on New Clicker Press

    Quote Originally Posted by iWAYNE View Post
    A video of the clicker press tripping the 30A breaker on start up.
    Visually you can see and hear the motor is spending too much time in the start-up phase.
    I agree with Jim.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

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