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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Spindle adjustment

    My 2015 vintage SBL-15 lathe has a bit of rumbling or vibration noise noise at 1500 rpm or above when using the manual 5C collet closer. I haven't checked for noise with a 3J or 4J chuck so don't know if that would make a difference.

    Is there a Tormach-approved procedure for adjusting the bearings? I'm wondering if the assembly has loosened up a bit over the past few years. I emailed support about this yesterday but haven't heard back from them yet.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1538

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Hi Michael.

    I dont think that is outlined in the manual, so please post any information you receive here.

    I think they are angular contact opposed greased ball bearings. It is possible they are not always perfectly adjusted ex the factory, which could mean adjustment would be required sooner than normal.

    A good plan to catch it early if that is the case. Cheers Cliff

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    Hi Michael.

    I dont think that is outlined in the manual, so please post any information you receive here.

    I think they are angular contact opposed greased ball bearings. It is possible they are not always perfectly adjusted ex the factory, which could mean adjustment would be required sooner than normal.

    A good plan to catch it early if that is the case. Cheers Cliff
    Thanks Cliff. I'll be sure to update here on whatever Tormach tells me. I'm a little surprised that they haven't addressed spindle bearing adjustment yet in the manual now that it is about 2 years since the SBL-15 was first released.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Tormach got back to me via voice mail (I couldn't talk when they called) and they seemed to think that my lever-type 5C collet closer is out of adjustment and that may be causing the problem. I'll try my 3-jaw chuck and see if that setup is also noisy. If not, the collet closer will need some adjusting.

    FWIW, I was told that the spindle bearings are not in a cartridge so adjusting them is apparently a difficult process and none of the lathe owners has needed to adjust the spindle so far.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1538

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Thanks Michael , yes keep us posted, good to hear there has been no spindle adjustment needed to date. I wonder how many 15L's are out there in regular use?


    Cliff

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Tried out my 3-jaw chuck in place of the 5C collet closer and the noise is the same or a bit worse so it looks like closer adjustment was not the issue. I'll be following up with Tormach tomorrow.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    184

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Michael, I have what is possibly the same issue with my Slant Pro. Tormach was useless in getting this fixed and now I live with this until something breaks catastrophically. Tormach entertained me with stuff to look at like aligning collet closer, but after I sent them video of same noise without collet closer they slowly gave up. I would really be interested to hear whether you find solution.

    This and problems with my 440 are the reason I will never recommend Tormach to anyone again. They gave up on both issues and while I can still use Slant Pro, I can't use 440...

    Here is video of the noise, it happens with or without 5C collet closer installed:


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    coffee - mine doesn't like that at all and is more of rumble or vibration that gets generally worse with spindle speeds above 1500 rpm. I tried recording video at different speeds but the camera doesn't hear the noise the way that I do. Sounds like you have a "tick-tick" noise in there though maybe that is the sound of the cutter engaging the work.

    I called Tormach again today and the tech support person suggested that I try removing the encoder belt from the spindle as he said that sometimes causes a ticking noise, so that may be something to check out if you haven't already.

    We also discussed the main spindle belt or the motor as possible problems so I'll be checking out all those possibilities tonight or tomorrow. My plan is to check the noise level with a smartphone app at various spindle speeds and in various configurations. I plan to let the spindle fully warm up and run the tests all at once.

    Feel free to tell me if this makes no sense or is likely to be non-productive.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    184

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    If I remember mine started with tick-tick and slowly progressed to this...

    Your plan of attack sounds good, I looked into all that...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Well, I ran through several configurations at speeds of 1,000 to 2,500 rpm after letting the spindle warm up at 1,000 rpm for 3 hours. I still have a few more tests to run, but no configuration change, from no chucks and the encoder and belt disconnected to encoder/belt connected and 5C collet installed seems to have any sort of significant effect on the noise. In fact, running the spindle for 3 hours seems to have the most effect on the noise and it is now moderately close to acceptable in any configuration and any spindle speed other than perhaps 2100-2400 rpm. There is a noticeable "warble" or resonance at 2250 rpm which is much less objectionable at 2,000 or 2,500 rpm. The spindle temperature cold dead at the start to the end of this test with about 6 hrs of spindle on time was pretty stable at about 80 °F in my 75 °F basement and the spindle belt temperature increased from 80 to 100 °F. I'd have thought the spindle would have increased temperature more than that, but is really under very little load.

    I'll finish the tests tomorrow and try to chart the results.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Here are the results of my spindle noise tests. The 1st file has the effects workholding spindle options and encoder connection on spindle noise and the second file is spindle with the encoder attached and the 5C lever-type collet chuck installed with a cold and warmed up spindle.

    Noise levels were pretty much the same with or without the encoder installed and with or without a 3-J chuck or the 5C collet closer installed. By comparison, the noise level with a that had sat overnight (Cold Spindle) was quite a bit different (and louder) than with a spindle that had been run for several hours (Warm Spindle), though the actual spindle temperatures were about the same (76 and 78 °F, respectively) according to my cheap handheld IR sensor.

    Any thoughts?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    184

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    I take it you haven't gotten anywhere with this?

    Mine is as noisy as ever and annoys me to no end.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Mine seems to quiet down quite a bit with an hour or so of warm up. Most of the parts I've been making lately take 2-3 minutes per part, so even a 100-part lot doesn't generate much actual spindle time.

    I need to confirm some things with Tormach and doing it by phone seems more reliable than email. At the least I'd like to get a better set of spindle drawings and a written adjustment and/or replacement procedure.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    184

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Mine will get much better after warming up, but I can tell you that if your issue is same as mine, it will get worse and worse. I would love to see detailed written procedure for replacement/adjustment as well. I assume this has got to do with main bearing...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    I'll post here when I have news.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    17

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    I can provide some information on the bearing used in the Tormach lathe. There are two matched sets, both NSK. Front (near spindle) are 7012 and rear is 7013. These come as matched sets and are grade 5 (beefy for this small a lathe) . The only adjustment is preload through a compression nut. With two stacked sets of bearings, the rear set will not be fully loaded and can make some noise at start up, but this usually goes away after warming up.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Thanks Renovo. If you have already out the lathe bearings, can you comment on the procedure? Is it reasonable to pull off the front and tail headstock caps to check for issues with the bearings?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    17

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    Thanks Renovo. If you have already out the lathe bearings, can you comment on the procedure? Is it reasonable to pull off the front and tail headstock caps to check for issues with the bearings?
    Hi Michael, accessing the rear bearing sets to inspect is straightforward; the front set requires removal of the spindle from the head stock. If you haven’t replaced spindle bearings in a lathe before, I wouldn’t recommend and the steps are more involved than I care to write down.

    For reasons other than noise, I removed my spindle and replaced the P5 bearings with P4. The stock spindle bearings are good quality and unless you have a lot of hours on your lathe, I would doubt the noise you are hearing is due to defective or warn spindle bearings. If the spindle bearings go bad in a lathe you will have signs beforehand as a result of play within the bearings which is typically poor surface finish when cutting harder materials and inability to maintain tight tolerances.

    My 2015 slant pro had two areas of causing noise and vibration. First, the motor pulley set screw and corresponding location in the motor shaft were misaligned, which caused a thumping or clicking noise when the motor ran. Easy fix was to clean up the hole in the shaft and use a better quality set screw to lock the pulley in place.

    Second area was the collet closure system, which has multiple problems and caused noise and vibration at different speeds (there is another post on this subject). My solution was to replace the two component index ring and collar with a single piece, which has a through bore closely matched to the drawbar OD. This provides alignment to the drawbar and prevents it from moving off-center when the collet closure is closed. The second part of my solution was to upgrade the components of the collet closure to incorporate bushings to allow the pivoting components to be tightened, but still allow easy rotation in one plane of motion. This prevents the rattling of the entire system and the associated vibration. I have attached a few images of the final assembly.

    Let me know if you still want to inspect your rear spindle bearings and I will type up some notes on the steps I used over the weekend.






  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    Renovo - Thanks for the detailed reply, especially the pictures of your collet closer upgrades. From your description, it sounds like mine suffers from similar issues and would probably benefit from the same modifications.

    My lathe has a few hundred hours of run time, all at 1500 or less rpm, and I've never replaced lathe bearings of any sort so I'm thinking that I should let the bearings be and try to avoid noise issues with spindle warmup, or just ignore them. I'll try turning some stock at the noisiest spindle speed (2250 rpm) and see if the surface finish suffers. I appreciate your offer to write up a spindle inspection procedure but that really seems like Tormach's job so I'll try them again on Monday and see what they say. Their initial response was that none of the lathes sold so far have needed spindle or bearing adjustment and they also stated that the bearings should last a long time, much longer than I've had my Sep-2015 lathe. I'd still like them to supply an inspection and change out procedure, if only on general principles.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Spindle adjustment

    I removed the six SHCS from the rear (turret side) spindle cap and the cap rotates just fine about the spindle axis but is resisting my efforts to slide it. Is there a trick to getting this cap off the spindle housing? I'm assuming that trying to force it off with a small pry and any more than moderate force would be a bad idea.

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