[GME]

I have the same problem as PLJack. When my Saturn 2 4x4 arrives, I cannot get it into my shop without removing something. Jack advises against removing the gantry if possible. I get it. I’d rather not remove it.

The Z axis, not the gantry, is the real problem. It simply sits up too high to get through a normal doorway, or go down a hall on its side, as I will have to do. So, why not remove the Z axis and leave the gantry attached?

I’m working from photos, but it appears that to remove the Z axis, one needs to do the following:

1. Remove the tramming plate
2. Remove the plate to which the tramming plate mounts (it looks like it attaches to the bearing blocks.
3. Remove the plate the to which the rails are mounted. It looks this plate is mounted to the X axis bearing blocks.

If I’m correct in my assessment, then the rails remain attached to their respective mounting points, the bearing blocks remain attached to their respective rails, and the ball screw remains undisturbed.

Do I have it right, or am I missing something? Any pitfalls or things to watch out for with this approach? It seems simple enough on its face, but things are not always (usually?) as they seem. What I definitely want to avoid is removing any of the rails. I just don’t want to go there.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Gary

[wmgeorge]

See my previous advice and center punch or scribe mark all. Take pictures and use for a reference when putting back together. You must not have an overhead door like most shops. PS and its still going to be heavy.

[GME]

See my previous advice and center punch or scribe mark all. Take pictures and use for a reference when putting back together. You must not have an overhead door like most shops. PS and its still going to be heavy.

I agree with scribing and otherwise marking everything. Ditto with photos. Makes perfect sense. My main question was whether the Z-axis was readily removable without unseating any of the linear rails. I also wanted to know whether the Z axis would come off in the way I thought it might, and whether there were any pitfalls/cautions I should aware of.

You're right. I don't have an overhead door into my shop - and it's plenty inconvenient. I have a daylight basement, with a slider for an entry door. The door is to a large rec room. I go in the door, make an immediate right turn and down a small hall to my shop. My shop area is about 960 sf, so at least theoretically, I have a decent amount of space. I say theoretically, because I've acquired a number of large tools over the years and there never seems to be enough space. I have many of my large tools on casters, because I cannot seem to manage to find enough suitable space to put them in a fixed position. Only my cabinet saw and CNC are in fixed positions. I would rather it otherwise, it is what it is. It's not in my budget or lot layout to build out a separate shop. I'm going to take out a 72" wide window, open the wall and add french doors. That will give me about 6' direct access to the shop and solve the problem getting things in. I just haven't gotten to it yet, and won't be able to until next spring/summer.

BTW, I have a 36"X72"X3" thick piece of phenolic I use for a bench top. You don't want know how much fun it was getting something like that into the shop. At least I have experience with things large, unwieldy and heavy, like the Saturn 2 is going to be.

Thank you for responding.

Gary

[PLJack]

I have the same problem as PLJack. When my Saturn 2 4x4 arrives, I cannot get it into my shop without removing something. Jack advises against removing the gantry if possible. I get it. I’d rather not remove it.

The Z axis, not the gantry, is the real problem. It simply sits up too high to get through a normal doorway, or go down a hall on its side, as I will have to do. So, why not remove the Z axis and leave the gantry attached?

I’m working from photos, but it appears that to remove the Z axis, one needs to do the following:

1. Remove the tramming plate
2. Remove the plate to which the tramming plate mounts (it looks like it attaches to the bearing blocks.
3. Remove the plate the to which the rails are mounted. It looks this plate is mounted to the X axis bearing blocks.

If I’m correct in my assessment, then the rails remain attached to their respective mounting points, the bearing blocks remain attached to their respective rails, and the ball screw remains undisturbed.

Do I have it right, or am I missing something? Any pitfalls or things to watch out for with this approach? It seems simple enough on its face, but things are not always (usually?) as they seem. What I definitely want to avoid is removing any of the rails. I just don’t want to go there.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Gary

The Z axis is about the only thing I have not taken apart.
Just waked over and took a look. If it were me I would not mess with the tram plate or any other for that matter.

If you raise Z to the top you will see nine bolts on the bottom. The top one that is behind the screw can be left alone.
The other eight are attaching the entire Z assembly to the bearings. Remove those and the Z axis should come off.

I would use a torque wrench to remove those if you can. I have no idea what the toque is for reassembly.
Mark what you can beforehand and take pictures form all angles before, during and after.

Jack.

[GME]

The Z axis is about the only thing I have not taken apart.
Just waked over and took a look. If it were me I would not mess with the tram plate or any other for that matter.

If you raise Z to the top you will see nine bolts on the bottom. The top one that is behind the screw can be left alone.
The other eight are attaching the entire Z assembly to the bearings. Remove those and the Z axis should come off.

I would use a torque wrench to remove those if you can. I have no idea what the toque is for reassembly.
Mark what you can beforehand and take pictures form all angles before, during and after.

Jack.

Wow! Thank you checking it out, Jack. Sounds easier than I thought. I would definitely prefer to leave as much intact as possible. I have a torque wrench, so no problems there. I like the torque wrench idea. In fact, it would probably be a good idea for tightening down any fastener that has to be loosened. I'll check with Nate to see if he has a torque setting for me. Since he adds the rails himself, he necessarily has to add Z axis, regardless of whether he gets it one piece or in parts. If he has the torque numbers, I'll pass them along for everyone.

Just curious, but if you had to do it over, would you still remove the gantry, or would you remove the z axis and leave the gantry attached?

Thank you again,

Gary

[PLJack]

Wow! Thank you checking it out, Jack. Sounds easier than I thought. I would definitely prefer to leave as much intact as possible. I have a torque wrench, so no problems there. I like the torque wrench idea. In fact, it would probably be a good idea for tightening down any fastener that has to be loosened. I'll check with Nate to see if he has a torque setting for me. Since he adds the rails himself, he necessarily has to add Z axis, regardless of whether he gets it one piece or in parts. If he has the torque numbers, I'll pass them along for everyone.
Just curious, but if you had to do it over, would you still remove the gantry, or would you remove the z axis and leave the gantry attached?
Thank you again,

Gary

If I remember correctly the Z axis was my issue as well. Even not knowing what I've been through I would have removed the Z axis if had thought of it.
My thinking was that I would need to learn how to square the Y axis anyway. And that's how it went down. In hindsight I'm glad I did it the way I did. I have learned a lot about my machine over the last couple of months.


Note: Secure those bearings yourself before removing the machine from the palet. If that Z axis or gantry makes friends with gravity the results are startling.
They move fast and will cut off parts of your body. It's a very heavy machine. Which ever way you tilt it keep the weight on the bottom.

Jack.

[DDgitfiddle]

I had a much different situation, but had to remove the gantry also. My shop is on a second story and there is a 90 degree turn on the stairs. There was no way I was fitting a 4x4 machine and even the 4x2 barely fit. (In retrospect, the CNCRP machine would have been a lot easier but I liked the construction on the Saturn better.) My gantry and Z axis together weight about 125 lbs, and that is the aluminum Saturn (1) version. Even with the challenges that Jack has had, I recommend removing the gantry and not the Z axis. My logic is that there is a decent chance that you will have to square the gantry anyway. With the Z-axis, gravity is not your friend. You will still need to square it up when you mount it, and you will lose your starting reference when you loosen the screws to adjust it. With the gantry, gravity helps keep things in place when you adjust. I suspect that Nate assembles the Z-axis to the gantry by flipping the gantry on its back...easier to hold and square up.

If your machine has the same warp on the gantry mount plates as Jack’s, you should also have the same washer shims that Jack originally had. This time, you would know about them and would know to be careful. Or you would decide that real shims are needed and you would have to remove the gantry anyway.

Just a a different perspective to consider. Good luck!

-Robert

[wmgeorge]

I was also just going to suggest the same thing. Gantry has what six bolts on each side? Mark or scribe location, loosen bolts, check for shims, mark each as needed and map locations, remove. Repeat on the other side. I would guess leaving the gantry on and placing the machine on its side would make it top or one side heavy. I am assuming you have dollies.

I have moved a lot of heavy equipment and the last was my Saturn 2 and it was done by me alone with no fork truck only an overhead cable come a long.

[PLJack]

Good advice by Robert and George above.
I would add:
The base was much easier to handle with the gantry removed. It's a bit unwieldy with either the Z axis or gantry in place.
Use straps if you can. Do not use department store straps. Find someone with some Tuflex liftalls or similar that could use a six pack.
Speaking of six packs get as many bodies as you can. I did it by myself with a tractor. That was no smart.
Mine was shimmed with 1mm washers. You will not be able to mark where they are and they will move when taking off the gantry. Hopefully there will be some witness marks on the anodized aluminum.
Rule number one when moving heavy objects is take your time. It's waiting for you to rush so that it can make it's move.
Again, what ever you do secure those bearings yourself. They were secured for shipment. Not installation. Even if there is nothing mounted to them.

Good luck. Looking forward to your build.
Jack.

[GME]

Note: Secure those bearings yourself before removing the machine from the palet. If that Z axis or gantry makes friends with gravity the results are startling.
They move fast and will cut off parts of your body. It's a very heavy machine. Which ever way you tilt it keep the weight on the bottom.Jack.

My gantry and Z axis together weight about 125 lbs, and that is the aluminum Saturn (1) version. Even with the challenges that Jack has had, I recommend removing the gantry and not the Z axis. My logic is that there is a decent chance that you will have to square the gantry anyway. With the Z-axis, gravity is not your friend. You will still need to square it up when you mount it, and you will lose your starting reference when you loosen the screws to adjust it. With the gantry, gravity helps keep things in place when you adjust. I suspect that Nate assembles the Z-axis to the gantry by flipping the gantry on its back...easier to hold and square up.

If your machine has the same warp on the gantry mount plates as Jack’s, you should also have the same washer shims that Jack originally had. This time, you would know about them and would know to be careful. Or you would decide that real shims are needed and you would have to remove the gantry anyway.

Just a a different perspective to consider. Good luck!

-Robert

I was also just going to suggest the same thing. Gantry has what six bolts on each side? Mark or scribe location, loosen bolts, check for shims, mark each as needed and map locations, remove. Repeat on the other side. I would guess leaving the gantry on and placing the machine on its side would make it top or one side heavy. I am assuming you have dollies.

I have moved a lot of heavy equipment and the last was my Saturn 2 and it was done by me alone with no fork truck only an overhead cable come a long.

Good advice by Robert and George above.
I would add:
The base was much easier to handle with the gantry removed. It's a bit unwieldy with either the Z axis or gantry in place.
Use straps if you can. Do not use department store straps. Find someone with some Tuflex liftalls or similar that could use a six pack.
Speaking of six packs get as many bodies as you can. I did it by myself with a tractor. That was no smart.
Mine was shimmed with 1mm washers. You will not be able to mark where they are and they will move when taking off the gantry. Hopefully there will be some witness marks on the anodized aluminum.
Rule number one when moving heavy objects is take your time. It's waiting for you to rush so that it can make it's move.
Again, what ever you do secure those bearings yourself. They were secured for shipment. Not installation. Even if there is nothing mounted to them.

Good luck. Looking forward to your build.
Jack.

Thank you everyone. Great information and advice. I really didn't want to remove the gantry, but it makes sense to do it. The main issue for me will be trying to contain the imbalance while I'm moving the machine on a dolly. I'm going to put it on its end on the dolly. While gravity may want to work it way with the bearing blocks, that is containable. By putting it on end, I reduce the risk of doing something bad to the gear racks.

I've already decided to hold Nate's feet to the fire, if I have the same issues with the gantry Jack had. I can accept that some minor amount of shimming may ultimately be necessary, but 3/32" is far beyond what I consider minor. If find it noteworthy that while Jack's machine had 1mm washers, it was out by large multiples of that.

Robert, I cannot imagine in my wildest dream how you got such a heavy machine up to a second floor. I'd be thinking cases, not six packs. Yikes!

wmgeorge, yep, I have dollies. However, I plan to make a custom one for this job. I plan to add some uprights and angle braces to maintain balance. The machine will rest against the uprights, and the angle bracing will keep the uprights from collapsing. It will be tough enough keeping it from trying tip over. A little extra insurance can't hurt.

I have a shop crane (aka engine hoist or boom crane), and I'm in the process of building a wooden gantry crane. The shop crane is okay for some things, but it isn't always that convenient - mainly because you have to get the legs under or around whatever you are trying to lift. It worked for my floor mount drill press, but didn't work so well with my cabinet saw. There are some workarounds, but they are a PIA. There is also the problem of lift height. I have a bandsaw I need to lift to add a custom built mobile base. The boom on the shop crane won't go high enough to hook onto the saw's lifting eye.

In case anyone is interested in the shop crane, below is a link to the youtube video about it. In the comments section there is also a drawing with dimensions. I've also added the link for that. This guy who designed and built it has a huge shop with lots of really heavy stuff. I plan to use it to lift and hold the CNC just a little higher than the leg kit. I want to try attaching the legs from underneath, and once connected lower everything as an assembly. I'm planing to do it this way in hopes of better luck and an easier time getting the base mounting holes to line up. May not work, and I have to drill out holes to get it to line up; however, since I was building the gantry crane anyway, I may as well give it a shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtPU1pOTLH4

Drawing: http://i.imgur.com/qT4SP7c.jpg
Thanks again for all the great input. I really appreciate it. :cheers:

Gary

[PLJack]

I can accept that some minor amount of shimming may ultimately be necessary, but 3/32" is far beyond what I consider minor.

3/32 does not seem that bad for welded steel plate. But I'm no expert.

So, when does the big move begin!

Jack.

[Ntl]

3/32 does not seem that bad for welded steel plate. But I'm no expert.

So, when does the big move begin!

Jack.

Just under a 1/8 of a inch gap isn’t bad for a framer but not so much for a welder lol.

[wmgeorge]

If you purchased the stand from FLA like I did it needs to be assembled first, and it comes with the casters/pad installed so you can roll it around. Do You have enough ceiling height in your shop for that large wood hoist?

[GME]

3/32 does not seem that bad for welded steel plate. But I'm no expert.

So, when does the big move begin!

Jack.

Nate touts that the frames are welded in a jig, stress relieved and good to within .1mm (about .004"). If his vendor can get the frames welded to that tolerance, they should be able to do the same with the gantry. When I read "frame", I'm reading the basic frame and the gantry frame. When advertising tolerances, the tolerances should be as good for one as for the other. Also, I haven't seen others comment about their gantries having a similiar issue. wmgeorge has the same machine, but I take it from his comments that he hasn't seen a need to loosen his gantry. He doesn't report any binding issues or the shims, so I'm guessing his is okay.

Still waiting for my machine to ship. Nate has a shipment of linear rails held up in customs. They are destined for my machine, as well as for others. Apparently, they have been in customs for about 4 weeks now. I'm guessing the tariffs are slowing things down. They add an extra layer of work for customs officials, and there probably aren't enough workers to handle it. Nate says that before this one, the longest a shipment was delayed in customs was 1 week.

I live on the left coast in Washington State, so I'm guessing about a week from shipment to arrival. More to come.

Gary

[GME]

If you purchased the stand from FLA like I did it needs to be assembled first, and it comes with the casters/pad installed so you can roll it around. Do You have enough ceiling height in your shop for that large wood hoist?

Yes. My ceiling it about 8'-6" at the lowest point (under a beam), but I can cut the 4x4s to make it any height I want. Is there any reason why I cannot suspend the machine slightly above the frame and assemble the frame under it? What I was hoping to do was loosely attach the legs to the CNC frame first, and then screw on the horizontals. I haven't seen the stand "in the flesh" as yet, so I don't have a sense of whether there is any amount of play in the frame as it goes together. If there is, what I'm thinking of doing may work. If there isn't any play, then it really doesn't matter how it assemble it - I'm going to have to drill out the holes in the bottom of the CNC frame corners in any event.

Gary

[GME]

Just under a 1/8 of a inch gap isn’t bad for a framer but not so much for a welder lol.

I wouldn't be particularly happy with a 1/8 gap in framing, let alone with welding, but I take, and agree with, your point.

While using a jig maintains pre-weld alignment, if welded badly, the pent up stresses in the weld can cause the metal to move pretty dramatically, after the part is removed. It would be interesting to know what process or processes are used to relieve the welding stress, e.g., pre-weld heating, post-weld heat treatment (in an oven), controlling vibration frequency during welding, selecting one method of laying down a bead over another, etc. Some of the methods require special equipment that, I suspect, only a few would even think about purchasing. At the end of the day, it's not all that important. For the end consumer, it's the final product that counts. Nate advertises .1 mm tolerance. I look to him to provide quality control to maintain that level of tolerance.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

The quick answer for the bottom mounting plates is either 3/8 or 1/2 inch think plate. If you have ever none any welding on steel you know it will always distort some. It can be held to a very little amount by proper welding procedures but some will always be present. Mine as I suspect all of these produced have some distortion, but you really need to look for it and No shims. I think the jig and stress relief was done on the actual gantry frame.

The stand is intended to be a stand ( ) alone item. Why not assemble it first like I did, move over to one side bring in the machine and then lower on the stand? You may need to enlarge the mount holes in the machine to make it line up with the stand, or maybe not? I think you can see the above in my build post.

[GME]

The quick answer for the bottom mounting plates is either 3/8 or 1/2 inch think plate. If you have ever none any welding on steel you know it will always distort some. It can be held to a very little amount by proper welding procedures but some will always be present. Mine as I suspect all of these produced have some distortion, but you really need to look for it and No shims. I think the jig and stress relief was done on the actual gantry frame.

The stand is intended to be a stand ( ) alone item. Why not assemble it first like I did, move over to one side bring in the machine and then lower on the stand? You may need to enlarge the mount holes in the machine to make it line up with the stand, or maybe not? I think you can see the above in my build post.

If Nate maintains the .1 mm spec he advertises, I can live with it. I'll just buy some .001" shim washers and call it good. Even though I favor the epoxy bedding method (I know, you don't), I doubt I would bother with it to close a gap as small as .004" at its worst.

I agree that any welding process will cause some distortion - even it's as little as .1 mm. I talked about it in PLJack's build post, when the subject of a gap came up. I'm hoping that mine meets the advertised spec, or very close to it. If it doesn't, I'll work with Nate to get it sorted out.

On the stand, I don't see any functional difference in putting the stand together an 1/8" in in the air, or on the ground. I acknowledge that I may be missing something, but, so far, no one is filling in my knowledge gap. For me, the question is whether I can get the holes to line up where the stand mounts to the CNC frame. What I want to know in advance is whether there is some play where the legs and come together with the horizontals. I rarely see anything bolted together where there isn't some play. Whether there is, or the extent, will help me decide how I want go about it. I'm trying to avoid drilling out holes, if I can avoid it. That's the answer to your "Why not assemble it first like I did" question. I may end up doing it like you did (or are going to do), but I'm willing to spend a little extra time exploring an alternative. I'm retired and may or may not use the machine for profit. So, an extra hour or two spent looking at a different approach is no big deal to me.

Thank you for your input.

Gary

[wmgeorge]

The frame has very little fudge factor between the holes in the plates and the tapped holes.

A skim coat of epoxy .020 inch thick would crack more that likely under the weight and stress of being bolted down. Thats why shims are used. You will never see epoxy being used in an Industrial application for machine leveling or setting.

[GME]

The frame has very little fudge factor between the holes in the plates and the tapped holes.

A skim coat of epoxy .020 inch thick would crack more that likely under the weight and stress of being bolted down. Thats why shims are used. You will never see epoxy being used in an Industrial application for machine leveling or setting.

I agree on the epoxy, if it was used alone might not carry the weight/bolt torque. Even it it would, I would still need something to set the correct spacing - in this case shim washers. If I would have to use shims anyway, it makes sense to me to leave them in play to do the heavy lifting. All the epoxy would do is fill the gaps. However, with a gap on the order of .004", I doubt I bother with epoxy and would stick with shim washers alone.

Not to be argumentative, I have read articles about using epoxy grout for machine setting. That's where I got the idea to use epoxy in the first place. What follows is one set of instructions for using/doing it for setting machines:

Epoxy Grout for Machinery Mounting and Anchoring | Micor Company


Apparently, there are multiple ways to skin the cat.

Gary