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IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > Dynomotion/Kflop/Kanalog > Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?
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  1. #1
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    Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi,
    Is it possible to see the result of what trajectroy planner does on KMotionCNC simulator?
    I'm trying to simutate 1x1 square corner roundings with 0.3 corner tolerance and 1deg facet angle.
    But corners still looks sharp. Or simulator can only show G code input?

    Another question(s) about KLP:

    - how the output paths differ with same KLP and different acceleratios? i.e for higher acceleration corner rounding is more (more error) or less?
    - if we feed Gcode with shorter lines (points) in theory it should be higher frequency and smoothing should be better and less error. Is that true?
    If so what can be the practical limits

    Our paths are highly nonlinear so has to be Gcoded as points. While speeds are on the high side (320inch/min, accelerat ~1g) so looking how is best to prepare code for kflop.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi funding33,

    Is it possible to see the result of what trajectroy planner does on KMotionCNC simulator?
    I'm trying to simutate 1x1 square corner roundings with 0.3 corner tolerance and 1deg facet angle.
    But corners still looks sharp. Or simulator can only show G code input?
    The Simulator doesn't perform Corner Rounding, Collinear Tolerance Filtering, or Trajectory Planning. It only shows the raw GCode input. You would need to run a dummy Job to see the result.



    - how the output paths differ with same KLP and different acceleratios? i.e for higher acceleration corner rounding is more (more error) or less?
    The KLP low pass trajectory filtering basically results in lag time. I think the position error will be roughly:

    Attachment 403674

    where t is the KLP time

    Here is an example with t=0.003 and a=30in/sec2 which computes s=0.000135 which is approximately the error shown in this actual data capture:







    if we feed Gcode with shorter lines (points) in theory it should be higher frequency and smoothing should be better and less error. Is that true?
    I'm not sure there is a simple answer. Corner rounding should provide similar smoothness without excessive GCode. If the GCode lines are too short they can become noisy due to round off errors. Note its important to create GCode with lots of precision ie 6 or more decimals if possible.



    If so what can be the practical limits
    KFLOP can receive and process ~2000 linear segments/sec at a sustained rate.

    HTH
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  3. #3
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    The KLP low pass trajectory filtering basically results in lag time. I think the position error will be roughly:

    Attachment 403674

    where t is the KLP time

    Here is an example with t=0.003 and a=30in/sec2 which computes s=0.000135 which is approximately the error shown in this actual data capture:



    Tom,

    I have a sort of related question. So it looks like the code is ran through the trajectory planner, and then the low pass filter (time lag) is applied to the output after right? Would it be possible to have a low pass filter applied first and then ran through trajectory planner after?

    Ive had a few issues with poor performance surfacing, slowing way down because of tiny segments in the code that are sometimes unavoidable. I was thinking if a low pass filter were applied first it would eliminate much of these tiny segments or at least smooth them, and if this smoother path was then ran through the trajectory planner it should run much faster. Any thoughts on this?

    Mark

  4. #4
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Mark,

    I have a sort of related question. So it looks like the code is ran through the trajectory planner, and then the low pass filter (time lag) is applied to the output after right? Would it be possible to have a low pass filter applied first and then ran through trajectory planner after?

    Ive had a few issues with poor performance surfacing, slowing way down because of tiny segments in the code that are sometimes unavoidable. I was thinking if a low pass filter were applied first it would eliminate much of these tiny segments or at least smooth them, and if this smoother path was then ran through the trajectory planner it should run much faster. Any thoughts on this?
    Interesting idea. But I'm not quite sure how that would work. There is no concept of time until after things are planned.

    The Collinear Tolerance should eliminate the unnecessary tiny vectors.



    And then the corner rounding should provide smoothness. And give you to control over the amount of allowed error.

    Do you have an example of GCode that caused you problems? And your settings?
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  5. #5
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Mark,

    Interesting idea. But I'm not quite sure how that would work. There is no concept of time until after things are planned.
    Could it be planned, filtered then re-planned? Send it through twice? I guess you would want to ignore acceleration the first time, just use feed rate and the low pass filter to calculate a smoother path, then run this smoother path through the trajectory planner again to figured out accelerations etc. I have no idea if any of this is possible for you or not, but I bet it would work really well.

    Seems like the industrial controllers work this way. They definitely round things a lot more at faster feed rates. Which is exactly what the KLP filter does, but the industrial controllers seem to round things off the same way and then use this smoother path to go faster. And in our case we are calculating a smoother path, but still using the painfully slow acceleration from the original path.

    May not be easy for you to add, but if you could somehow add this in a future release it should make a world of difference to anybody doing alot of 3d surfacing or mold work.

  6. #6
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    I found an old part that was giving me grief last year. See attached test.txt for g code, and attached trajectory planner settings. The tool path is terrible I know, but i feel like it would run much better it were handled like i mentioned above. Even the old 90's fanuc I used to run at my last job would likely do much better because it simply ignores a lot of the small stuff. That old fanuc would sometimes come up 0.050 or 0.060 thou short or even more on surfaces when you program fairly fast, another sign of smoothing. We would always have to extend surfaces past the part to get it to cut properly. We had a newer Mazak and you could tell it was still smoothing things a little at higher speeds, but much less then the fanuc, it was far more accurate.

    This toolpath in this test starts off decent with nice round transitions between each line but after an inch or so the transitions from line to line get messed up and my machine slows way down trying to follow every detail. A little bit of smoothing before calculating acceleration would go a long ways in this case i think.

  7. #7
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi mmurray70,

    That GCode is very nasty. But allowing more segments to be combined and more rounding smooths it significantly. I took a section of ~ 700 lines of the code and run time decreased from 43.2sec to 36.2sec with an allowed tolerance of 0.006 inches. I used:

    Attachment 403786

    See Plots with various settings

    https://youtu.be/BDX_JUXVrBk
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  8. #8
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi mmurray70,

    That GCode is very nasty. But allowing more segments to be combined and more rounding smooths it significantly. I took a section of ~ 700 lines of the code and run time decreased from 43.2sec to 36.2sec with an allowed tolerance of 0.006 inches. I used:

    Attachment 403786

    See Plots with various settings

    https://youtu.be/BDX_JUXVrBk
    Yeah that certainly makes a difference. Looks like the whole tool path is getting shifted around though (especially in the Z) which would result in a fairly messed up surface with a tolerance of 0.006.

    Having it smooth based on time like the KLP filter would have two huge advantages. Number one would be it only causes an error in corners or curves and very quickly moves to the exact path when moving straight. Since all these transitions are made off the part slightly, the part would still be cut almost exactly to original size. And number two, if there was some feature you wanted to be sure was cut very accurately you can just program that feature a little slower.

  9. #9
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    So Tom have you given this any more thought? Would it be possible to do something like this someday or is it way to complex? Have it process the path twice maybe? Would be awesome if there was a way to add a low pass filter directly into the trajectory planner in kmotioncnc.

    Heres a pic of that path and also showing the part. As you can see if a LPF were used all the smoothing would be done off the part and while actually cutting the part it would be following the original path almost identical. Most cnc operations would work really well with a low pass filter too. Cutting larger arcs would not show much error, straight sections would be machined perfectly, outside corners would be very good. Only place you would really notice it would be inside corners and very small arcs/helixs. So it should run much faster and smoother without showing much error in most situations.

  10. #10
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi mmurray70,

    I was testing a few ideas. But I don't see how any algorithm could know what is important to you and what is not. How would it know the Z movements are not important.

    Actually KMotionCNC V4.34 has a form of GCode "smoothing" but for a somewhat different purpose. We used it for creating smooth 6 axis robotic motions given specified positions (poses). See the example below spooning sugar (start at 2 minutes)

    https://youtu.be/MSONYPXe3bE?t=122

    To generate the motion a several poses were entered as GCode Positions. If the raw GCode was executed the motion would be piecewise linear and very jerky and awkward. To smooth motion select the GCode in the GCode Editor, right click - Transform, and set the 6-axis smoothing value to a value > 1. The path is then recursively smoothed N times. Each pass subdivides each line into 2 lines then smooths all points with a 3 point filter.

    current smoothed point = (previous point + 2 * current point + next point) / 4

    Below is a simple path smoothed 0, 1, 2, and 3 times

    Attachment 404064
    Attachment 404066
    Attachment 404068
    Attachment 404070

    This isn't ideal for your situation as it assumes the original GCode has similar segment lengths. Note the selected GCode to smooth must be a continuous path of G1 commands.

    I modified the algorithm to first divide each segment into somewhat equal lengths that you can specify. Each original segment is subdivided into N segments where N is the smallest integer that makes the segment lengths less than the value specified. In your example data with 747 segments, specifying a value of 0.0003 inches creates 50,951 segments.

    I then tried various filters.

    #1 run length averaging.
    #2 original recursive 3 point passes (described above resulting in something similar to Gaussian Filter)
    #3 IIR type Low pass filter

    After smoothing the segments are recombined into a more reasonable number of segments using a specified collinear tolerance. With your data the and a collinear tolerance of 0.0003 the number of segments reduced from 50,951 to 471 segments (less than original).

    Attachment 404062

    I could post the program if you would like to play with it.

    Below are some results for different Tau lengths for the IIR Low Pass Filter

    https://youtu.be/dUJKq8WRuAg
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  11. #11
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Tom,

    This is awesome! The last video you show is smoothing the code much more like what i was thinking, the middle sections of code look much closer to original. Even the smallest amount, 0.02 was a huge difference and would probably be fine. So in the video was this only the #3 IIR type Low pass filter or were 1 and 2 used as well? Im not sure exactly what you mean by #1 run length averaging, can you explain this more?

    Also I see the units of Tau are in inches and not seconds? So does this mean the same amount of smoothing would be done at all feedrates? It would be very nice to have it smooth based on time somehow if its at all possible. All the industrial machines smooth way more at high speeds for sure. Its common to slow down for finishing critical features knowing the machine rounds corners and lags behind more at high speeds. Could different Tau lengths be used based on programmed feedrate somehow? Maybe specify a maximum value and have it proportional to programmed feedrate? Or would the same Tau value need to be used throughout?

    I had no idea about the transform feature being already there. When I try it I dont get all these options, I guess this is what you mean about posting the program. Yes by all means post it and ill play around with it. Thanks

    Mark

  12. #12
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Mark,

    This is awesome! The last video you show is smoothing the code much more like what i was thinking, the middle sections of code look much closer to original. Even the smallest amount, 0.02 was a huge difference and would probably be fine.
    Well I would think 0.02 inches would be significant errors.

    So in the video was this only the #3 IIR type Low pass filter or were 1 and 2 used as well?
    Yes only the IIR Filter was applied (besides subsampling and recombination)

    Im not sure exactly what you mean by #1 run length averaging, can you explain this more?
    This is where each point is the simple average of itself and N points before and N points after. A rectangular convolution filter. This is fast to calculate as the next point can be computed with just two operations even if many points are involved. A possible advantage is that it is symmetrical and points some distance away will have no influence at all.

    Also I see the units of Tau are in inches and not seconds? So does this mean the same amount of smoothing would be done at all feedrates? It would be very nice to have it smooth based on time somehow if its at all possible. All the industrial machines smooth way more at high speeds for sure. Its common to slow down for finishing critical features knowing the machine rounds corners and lags behind more at high speeds. Could different Tau lengths be used based on programmed feedrate somehow? Maybe specify a maximum value and have it proportional to programmed feedrate? Or would the same Tau value need to be used throughout?
    Yes I was thinking to control the amount of error would be most desirable and intuitive for the Operator. I was also thinking a constant feedrate for the entire path, so assuming ideal feedrates with no trajectory planning, distance and time are proportional. But I now see your point. I find this all very ironic on how we work so hard to assure the machine follows the exact path specified in a fully optimized manner with exactly controlled errors, but now you are sort of saying errors can be uncontrolled like machines with poor trajectory planning work.

    I had no idea about the transform feature being already there. When I try it I dont get all these options, I guess this is what you mean about posting the program. Yes by all means post it and ill play around with it.
    Yes. The two release binaries to copy to KMotion434\\KMotion434\Release to get the new Transform Screen are located here:
    Index of /Software/Patch/AddNewSmoothTransform_V434

    Also the changed source files if you are interested and the piece of your test pattern I've been using in the videos.
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  13. #13
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Tom,

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Well I would think 0.02 inches would be significant errors.
    Yes perhaps even a smaller value would be fine.

    Yes only the IIR Filter was applied (besides subsampling and recombination)
    Ok great, i wont worry too much about the run length average and 3 point filters.

    Yes I was thinking to control the amount of error would be most desirable and intuitive for the Operator. I was also thinking a constant feedrate for the entire path, so assuming ideal feedrates with no trajectory planning, distance and time are proportional. But I now see your point. I find this all very ironic on how we work so hard to assure the machine follows the exact path specified in a fully optimized manner with exactly controlled errors, but now you are sort of saying errors can be uncontrolled like machines with poor trajectory planning work.
    Well i guess there is a trade off between accuracy and speed. And in many cases a little filtering like this is desirable because it will allow things to run faster without making a whole lot of difference to the finished part. And of course we will be able to specify a tau value to decide exactly how much accuracy we need. There may also be times we want to avoid using this and follow the exact path. There is actually a G61.1 mode available on the industrial machines which is a point to point mode and this guarantees that the machine slows down enough to meet each point before moving to the next, basically disabling any smoothing. Our Fanuc and Mazak mills had this at my last shop, but by default this mode is disabled as it runs slower. I guess this g61.1 mode is similar to how Kmotioncnc is working now.

    So do you think we will be able to have the amount of smoothing proportional to feedrate? Makes sense to me to smooth more while roughing fast, and seems to be the industry standard. I'll download those files and play around with them. Thanks!

    Mark

  14. #14
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Mark,

    And of course we will be able to specify a tau value to decide exactly how much accuracy we need.
    Well except the accuracy will vary depending on feed rate. I was thinking of the Users that expect high accuracy at all speeds.

    There may also be times we want to avoid using this and follow the exact path. There is actually a G61.1 mode available on the industrial machines which is a point to point mode and this guarantees that the machine slows down enough to meet each point before moving to the next, basically disabling any smoothing.
    It is physically impossible to go exactly through each point without coming to a complete stop at each point. So this mode is usually totally unusable unless the Job is extremely simple (ie square).

    I guess this g61.1 mode is similar to how Kmotioncnc is working now.
    Well not really. In fact I almost take offense at this Many systems have only two modes. "Exact Stop" as described above - which is mostly unusable. Or "No Stops" which goes at feedrate through everything regardless of what errors are created - which is often also unusable. KMotionCNC allows you to specify the allowed error and plans the optimal motion that always meets the allowed error while honoring all acceleration and velocity limits of all the axes. Additional improvements could still be made, but please don't lump us in with those other systems.

    So do you think we will be able to have the amount of smoothing proportional to feedrate? Makes sense to me to smooth more while roughing fast, and seems to be the industry standard.
    That should be possible if it makes sense. Upsample each segment based delta time x Feedrate rather than delta distance. For now you can get the same results by "transforming" each segment portion of GCode separately based on feedrate.

    I'll download those files and play around with them.
    Thanks. I'd appreciate the feedback. I'd love to see a comparison with optimal Trajectory Planner values shown earlier compared with the Low Pass Position Filter.

    btw do you have any idea why the CAD/CAM system generated such bizarre GCode for what you seem to want to be a basically flat surface?
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  15. #15
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Well except the accuracy will vary depending on feed rate. I was thinking of the Users that expect high accuracy at all speeds.
    Hi Tom, I think having accuracy vary with feedrate will actually provide greater accuracy overall. If we decide to use a certain LPF value to give good performance when roughing at 150IPM, and a little later were cutting at 30 IPM, it would be very easy for the machine to follow the path much more closely at that speed, so doesnt make sense to be using the same LPF value for all speeds. I think users would decide on an acceptable value to use at high speeds, and whenever your going slower then that, you know your following the original path much more closely.

    It is physically impossible to go exactly through each point without coming to a complete stop at each point. So this mode is usually totally unusable unless the Job is extremely simple (ie square).

    Well not really. In fact I almost take offense at this Many systems have only two modes. "Exact Stop" as described above - which is mostly unusable. Or "No Stops" which goes at feedrate through everything regardless of what errors are created - which is often also unusable. KMotionCNC allows you to specify the allowed error and plans the optimal motion that always meets the allowed error while honoring all acceleration and velocity limits of all the axes. Additional improvements could still be made, but please don't lump us in with those other systems.
    Sorry to offend you Tom. I've only ever tried g61.1 on a Mazak 510c II, and after doing some more reading, it looks like Mazak actually handles g61.1 differently. Mazak calls it "high accuracy mode" so probably a little different then the point-to-point mode as they call it on fanuc. When I tried it on the Mazak there would certainly be no stopping in g61.1 mode for each block, or slight angles or large radius curves, but it would slow down more then normal to avoid corner rounding on sharp corners, and follow the programmed path closer. Which seems to me to be like what we have now in Kmotioncnc. When in default g64 mode it would round corners significantly at very high speeds to help maintain programmed speed.


    That should be possible if it makes sense. Upsample each segment based delta time x Feedrate rather than delta distance. For now you can get the same results by "transforming" each segment portion of GCode separately based on feedrate.

    Thanks. I'd appreciate the feedback. I'd love to see a comparison with optimal Trajectory Planner values shown earlier compared with the Low Pass Position Filter.
    I'm trying to catch up on a few things over the next couple days, but ill try and do a test sometime over the weekend maybe. Ill take a smaller section of the code and cut three parts, and compare run time and part finish. Ill try my current trajectory planner settings as baseline, Ill try one with the LPF and Ill also try one with no LPF but increased tolerances in the trajectory planner like your first video. Any suggestion on values for the last one?


    btw do you have any idea why the CAD/CAM system generated such bizarre GCode for what you seem to want to be a basically flat surface?
    Sometimes you get weird solid models from customers and cam software doesn't do a great job with it. Not really sure what causes it, only happens occasionally.

    One last question. Do you think someday we could have this LPF added directly to the trajectory planner instead of having to use the transform feature? Ideally thats what id like to see. Be nice to have it built into the TP and active all the time, and just a few clicks away if you want to change the value to suit a specific job etc.

  16. #16
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Mark,

    Ill try my current trajectory planner settings as baseline, Ill try one with the LPF and Ill also try one with no LPF but increased tolerances in the trajectory planner like your first video. Any suggestion on values for the last one?
    I'd suggest the parameters used in the first video. Basically tolerances of 0.003 or 0.006.

    Do you think someday we could have this LPF added directly to the trajectory planner instead of having to use the transform feature? Ideally thats what id like to see. Be nice to have it built into the TP and active all the time, and just a few clicks away if you want to change the value to suit a specific job etc.
    Yes ideally that would be the goal. It may take a significant effort, make future changes more difficult, introduce bugs, require much testing, etc... So we would really like to establish the real value before committing.
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  17. #17
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Tom, I ran a small section (1"x3") of this part today as a test. I ran my existing settings as a baseline (0.0003 co-liner and 0.001 corner rounding), second test was with 0.003 co-liner and 0.003 corner rounding, and third test was back to original settings and a 0.010" low pass filter applied. Results were as follows:

    Test 1 (baseline) - 3 minutes, 59 seconds. Best finish of the 3.

    Test 2 (0.003 co linear and corner rounding) - 3 minutes, 26 seconds. Largest error in surface.

    Test 3 (0.010 Low pass filter) - 3 minutes, 1 second. Some error in surface, small gouge at start of filtering (possibly my fault, see below).

    This was the total run time to cut the top surface only. Other features were machined beforehand. See pic for details on surface finish. Test 1,2,3 are from left to right. But overall the low pass filter seems to be useful. Reduced cycle time considerably, and considering this helps smooth sharp corners, i could probably increase acceleration rates as well since they have been limited to keep things running smoothly. So possibly even more gains to be had if acceleration could be increased. Increasing the co-linear tolerance and corner rounding also made a huge difference to cycle time, but seemed to give slightly more error to the surface then the low pass filter.

    Im fairly pleased with the finish from the LPF considering how bad the g code was to start. Im hoping this gouge wont be a problem in the future. I started the filter just as the tool hit the part, maybe i should have added a couple of lines and started it above part. I might experiment with this later if i get a chance.

    Edit: The gouge was my fault, i started the transform on a line with only the Z value. Adding the X and Y values to the first line and starting above the part fixed the problem

  18. #18
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Mark,

    Thanks! It looks like low pass filtering has value. What Trajectory Planner settings and KLP filter in KFLOP values were used in the 3 cases?

    This type of Low Pass filter is fast and relatively easy to implement as it only involves the previous filtered value and the next point. But it is asymmetrical and has a lag at the end that has to be handled somehow.

    I'm still wondering if the other filters (running average or Gaussian type) could work better.
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  19. #19
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Mark,

    Thanks! It looks like low pass filtering has value. What Trajectory Planner settings and KLP filter in KFLOP values were used in the 3 cases?
    No problem Tom, thank you. See attached pic for trajectory planner settings. These settings were used for baseline and the low pass filter tests, colinear and corner rounding were changed to 0.003 each in the second test. Low pass filter in Kflop is set at 0.020 in all three tests.

    This type of Low Pass filter is fast and relatively easy to implement as it only involves the previous filtered value and the next point. But it is asymmetrical and has a lag at the end that has to be handled somehow.

    I'm still wondering if the other filters (running average or Gaussian type) could work better.
    Im not too sure about the differences between different types of filters. A quick google search shows a bunch of data thats a little over my head, but seems like the end result is somewhat similar from all of them, so maybe either could work. Maybe somebody else who understands this better could offer some advice.

    But honestly it seems like whatever your using now in the this transform feature is working very well. Seems to be similar to the smoothing ive noticed over the years on the fanuc and mazak mill I used to run, with the exception of those machines smoothing more proportional to speed as we discussed earlier. If you think this is fast and easy maybe you should just stick with it? Im guessing the lag will be small, maybe a straight move from the last filtered position to the actual position in g code could work? I dont think this will be a big deal as it should be a very small amount and people will be using lead in and out anyway on anything important.

  20. #20
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    Re: Does KmotionCNC simulator support trajectory planner?

    Hi Tom,

    Have you looked at this low pass filter since? Do you think you will be able to add it to the trajectory planner someday? Thanks.

    Mark

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