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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    46

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    I'll do some testing on the molds/casting first, I think if I cover the MDF with painters tape and then use demoldant spray in the tape I should be ok but I'll need to test first.

    about the casting in the surface plate that's a no-go, 1st I don't own a surface plate, 2nd even I did I wouldn't risk casting epoxy on that thing! and I want to see my friend giant (to me) machines tackling my parts, I'll have the chance of playing in the Pro League XD

    about the spindle, yes I should be ok with the servo 3.7kw 12kRPM, 17.6NM from 0-6000rpm, at 12Krpm I should get 3.5Nm from the curve they sent me, and that will be plenty for my needs...

    I abandoned the metal way covers for the time being, got in touch with a chinese company that makes way covers and those guys make the Accordion Bellows type covers for all axis to my spec for 350usd... that's 5 covers including one armored one (nylon fabric accordion with steel angle sheet protecting the fabric) for the Z axis... shipping included... they look pretty good and all people that buys it are very happy with those... I won't even bother the the metal ones lol... at least for now...

    so I'm gathering the funds to buy all the linear stuff should make the order by the end of the month, meanwhile I'm searching for some good epoxy... I got in touch with a couple of dealers let's see what solutions will they have to me... also need to study some aggregates, need to source many grades of rock and sand... next week I should have some news on this camp... need to find granite sand...
    Yes definitely do some sample molds to see which release method works best. Even the painters tape the spaces in between each roll width my leave some ridges, so it surely better be something to fully experiment with before the real thing.

    I'm under the impression your going to need to purchase a surface plate as well as some other inspection and measuring tools anyway. What are your plans to measure the flatness and squareness of the objects when bolted together? You don't want to have to go through all the tedious work of evolving your own invention only to not have it as accurate as you would like.

    I believe I have seen a few pictures of people casting epoxy granite on top of a surface plate. That's the idea I have in my head to cast my epoxy parts square and accurately. Like I stated previously I intend to sandwich my design in sheet metal so I'm not too concerned about running a surface plate as the epoxy granite wouldn't touch the plate.

    Does your friend have a surface grinder big enough to grind those mating surfaces down, or do you intend to just mill them flat?

    I'm definitely interested in your spindle and servo motor combination. That seems like it will certainly do the job for this size machine.

    Kind of glad you abandoned the metal way covers. I just didn't want to see you putting tons of effort into something that is so miniscule to the entire build. Although the accordion bellows may not look as nice, I'm certain the functionality will be just fine.

    Please document your epoxy choice and aggregate testing. It be very useful to have much more information on a sufficient mixture for such a project.

    Looking forward to your next updates.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    Go to a boat builder or maybe an automotive fiberglass manufacturer. From them you will be able to get tooling grade spray-ready polyester resins. You spray that onto the
    molds which can then be sanded and polished to a glossy state. Wax with a carnuba release wax and just before casting spray the molds with P(oly)V(ynal)A(lcahol) release.
    You will need about 3 degrees of draft, a little more than patterns for cast iron, for molds to release.

    If you require a material that will release without treatment use polyethelene plastic. Even plastic shrink wrap releases well.

    Keep silicone waxes away from your project/work zone/ your life!!!! Silicone waxes bugger up molding/casting/laminating resins bigtime and once your work zone
    is polluted with them just about impossible to get rid of.

    Craig
    hi Craig, thanks for all the advice! surely appreciated!


    Quote Originally Posted by AutomatedIngen View Post
    Yes definitely do some sample molds to see which release method works best. Even the painters tape the spaces in between each roll width my leave some ridges, so it surely better be something to fully experiment with before the real thing.

    I'm under the impression your going to need to purchase a surface plate as well as some other inspection and measuring tools anyway. What are your plans to measure the flatness and squareness of the objects when bolted together? You don't want to have to go through all the tedious work of evolving your own invention only to not have it as accurate as you would like.

    I believe I have seen a few pictures of people casting epoxy granite on top of a surface plate. That's the idea I have in my head to cast my epoxy parts square and accurately. Like I stated previously I intend to sandwich my design in sheet metal so I'm not too concerned about running a surface plate as the epoxy granite wouldn't touch the plate.

    Does your friend have a surface grinder big enough to grind those mating surfaces down, or do you intend to just mill them flat?

    I'm definitely interested in your spindle and servo motor combination. That seems like it will certainly do the job for this size machine.

    Kind of glad you abandoned the metal way covers. I just didn't want to see you putting tons of effort into something that is so miniscule to the entire build. Although the accordion bellows may not look as nice, I'm certain the functionality will be just fine.

    Please document your epoxy choice and aggregate testing. It be very useful to have much more information on a sufficient mixture for such a project.

    Looking forward to your next updates.
    Yes all the mold/release agent/EG have to be thoroughly tested!

    about the inspection equipment, yes I have a granite surface plate (not big enough for this build but big enough for my need), I have a granite high precision 750mm parallel (this thing cost me a kidney, I needed it on my other machine build) and I have a high precision granite square 250*400mm that will be my master square for this build. I've lots of dial indicators both 0.001mm and 0.01mm so I'm good with inspection stuff.

    I'll just mill them flat, my friend already milled the base of my other machine (just where the ways seated of course), a 1100mm*800mm base, he has a large surface plate also at the end of milling he inspected the flatness of the milled part and it was within 0.002mm... those are high-quality german mold making machines, not just big machines...

    yes about the spindle I think I'll be more than good... better be for the price of the stuff I'm putting on it... 1250usd for the spindle and 1500usd for the motor/drive combo...

    yeah the metal way cover where bugging me a little, the chinese covers actually look very nice also and will do the job just fine... and the price is just about the cost of 1 or maybe 2 metal way covers... plus the effort of making the mount system and parts I would need to make myself to keep the price low... in the end, math made, the price of 1 metal cover would be more than enough for all the chinese ones... so I won't be thinking on that anymore there's just no choice to be made....

    well got go to work...

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    46

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    about the inspection equipment, yes I have a granite surface plate (not big enough for this build but big enough for my need), I have a granite high precision 750mm parallel (this thing cost me a kidney, I needed it on my other machine build) and I have a high precision granite square 250*400mm that will be my master square for this build. I've lots of dial indicators both 0.001mm and 0.01mm so I'm good with inspection stuff.
    Yeah with that set of inspection equipment you should be fine for your build. Didn't realize you have made another epoxy granite machine before.

    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    I'll just mill them flat, my friend already milled the base of my other machine (just where the ways seated of course), a 1100mm*800mm base, he has a large surface plate also at the end of milling he inspected the flatness of the milled part and it was within 0.002mm... those are high-quality german mold making machines, not just big machines...
    Okay yeah that's good accuracy, you shouldn't require anymore than that for mounting the linear rails. Make sure you put some lifting points in your base and column so its easy setting them on the other machines for cutting the surfaces.

    Quote Originally Posted by vakeiros View Post
    yes about the spindle I think I'll be more than good... better be for the price of the stuff I'm putting on it... 1250usd for the spindle and 1500usd for the motor/drive combo...
    That isn't a bad price for a spindle or the motor drive unit. Please post some links if you do not mind so I have some resources as well.

    I have added a link to another builder who is building a VMC, this popped up on my youtube feed. He is 4 parts into his build now and has built the spindle, column, base, and table, seems like he just needs to put everything together now. I have included the links below to the 4 part series. Who knows may be some good parts in there for you to reference for your build:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJR2uGO9qfA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTdLRNgY5xk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwPGDHPzZgQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFl-ZqN_0dI

  4. #44
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    Aug 2013
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    hi guys, sorry I've been very busy with work, and hadn't much time for updates, anyway nothing really happened yet, I've been looking for suppliers for the needed materials and still deciding stuff... I've been looking at spindles now I'm thinking to go with BT40 instead of bt30... not sure yet, been looking at some spindles and BT40 is really sticking, I'm thinking also in upgrading the spindle motor to 5.5KW instead of 3.7, speacially if I go with BT40...
    Also found a silica mix suplier that suplies vaious grains of silica sand already mixed at proper ratios for resin casting! grains from 0 to 5mm for mixing at 8-9% epoxy! already asked for 2kg sample so I can make some testing. also, have some resins for testing lets see...

    Finally my measuring equipment got here, received my order from mitutoyo (1um inside indicator, 0.01mm outside indicator, 1um outside indicator) and received my master granite square 400*250*50mm grade 00 from ALPA!
    here're some pics of the measuring stuff, also have many other chinese indicators, I must say I've nothing bad to say frome these SHAHE indicators I have! now that I have some mitutoyos I can actually compare the chineses and see how they perform.









    things are rolling, slowly but rolling. I'm gathering the funds to acquire the linear motion stuff should pull the trigger on those in 1-2 weeks for those... after that I'll start the mold making...
    the Silimix comes from germany (I'm portuguese) so I'll have to by about 1ton of the stuff and I have to buy it all at once because of shipping cost so I need to get a clean and dry space to store the thing, and I want to order it the closer as possible to the time of casting.

    Also my controller and servo motors should be delivered on monday! yay, that will be the next update! Also I'll be needing help of some servo guru here to setup the servo drivers as I know exactly nothing about this subject... anyway when they get here I'll share my adventure... getting excited tho...

    kind regards to all!

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Hi guys, been a awhile since my last post, first of all Happy new year for all of you!
    I've been out for the holidays and been very busy, so just a quick report. So, controller and servos came in. What do I have to say? well I'm AMAZED with this thing! I've been using mach3 since I got my first 3040 router and a new controller is always a new controller BUT man I love this thing, there's a couple of thiings that could be better (very minor thing that a person is used to in mach3 like inserting an expression in the DRO like if you write "/2" in an axis it will divide the current value by2 and in this controller that doesn0t work, only accecpt values, but as I said minor things). I'll be bringing a video showing the thing working, it's really nice. The manual is written in Mil Spec Chinglish as expected but it's quite understandable and guys from SZGH are VERY VERY helpfull! it supports macros it's very handy. supports ATC, have the routines already written for both unbrella and linear type ATC, just need to define some parameters, connect all the sensors and stuff and you're good to go, in umbrella type it supports both Servo type or AC motor type (like the genova index system or something simillar) and it requires all the safety measures (Z position sensor, power draw bar clamp and umclamp sensor, tool0 sensor, tool indexer sensor [for AC motor type so it knows when it moved one tool slot], unbrella in and out position sensor, it supports both way rotation (I assume that since it as T+ and T- signal so I assume it can go forward and backward with the motor, I havent tested any of these ATC stuff but there's info in the manual so)) I'm really surprised with this thing! display quality is very good, well built, panel buttons are very nice, the absolute system is great, the controller responds very well, I bought it with an had MPG and it works flawless and next to no delay. really happy!
    best of all they sent all the wiring done and labelled so I just received it, plugged in the connectors in the respective places, powered up and was good to go! had a few difficulties seting up the system right since they sent it to 10mm ballscrews and I'm using 5mm and because of the absolute system, the chinglish manual wasn't clear but they helped me via Whattsapp and 10min later was all good.
    there are 10 editable macros using Mcodes like M880-M889 where we can make them for special usage, a couple of them are in use already for ATC and dividing axis and some stuff but you can change them. anyway I'll make a video showing it working, I'm still learning myself.
    Servos and drivers also are very nice, I was expecting to be a bit faster as they are 2500RPM rated so I was expecting they being capable of at least 3500RPM max speed but soon as I pass 3000RPM driver spam me with speed error, might be configuration issues honestly I haven't lost time messing with it yet.

    about progress, well finally I received the test sample of Silimix 261 also have some resins to test should be doing this in next weeak or so. Already ordered the linear stuff (Hiwin HGR30mm rails H precision with Heavy load cars, TBI 2005 precision ground C3 for XY and 2505 precision ground C3 for Z, SYK BF/BK bearing blocks and SYK nut brackets) also ordered the Auto Lub setup for the linear motion stuff. now I need to start gathering funds for the Silimix and resin, time to start actually seeing something as I already spend a quite big chunk of money and can't actually see anything XD but I really needed to be this way... so next in line is sand, resin and molds.

    About the design, I'be changed some minor stuff, added limit switches (the controller is absolute and have soft limits but I guess limit switches never hurt anyone), not going to use home swtiches as it is an absolute system, just want to make sure that motors are at zero encoder position and than I'll tight the coupler screw with the table at my desired zero position. also started the enclosure, power box and controller box design. i'm still sketching these since I need to think this thoroughly as I never used flood collant before... got a final design on the head, gonna be made i n 2 parts so I can align the spindle to the table, if I make it in just one part I wont be able to adjust it so I decided to make it 2 part.

    Spindle, well i went or more accuratelly will go crazy with the spindle unit. I found a very very nice BT40 spindle unit, they look very very nice, they are liquid colled and have 4 integrated coolant nozzles I really like it, 120mm body, 4 angular contact bearings and 12000RPM max speed, will go perfectly with the 5.5Kw servo spindle 12K RPM.

    here some pics on the spindle:





    some pics on the current design of the machine, still need to touch up the enclosure...



    anyway! happy new year to all!

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    1131

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Generally the problem with large servos is there is not enough room for it on the top of the head. I don't know yours though. What size the frame of the servo is?

    The spindle looks nice but do you really need a speed like 12k?

    Sent from my MI 5s Plus using Tapatalk

  7. #47
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    Aug 2013
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    motor frame is 210mm, it's about the largest I can fit there. I was going with 3.7KW and BT30 spindle and this one was 180mm frame but as I'm going with the BT40 I decided to go with the 5.5KW instead, price difference on the motor isn't that much so I prefer to have spare power than not enough power specially when I give up torque for speed, increasing the power I'll have a bit more torque in this 5.5kw 12000rpm motor than the 3.7kw motor with 8000rpm max (the 3.7kw 8kRPM has 24Nm rated torque, the 5.5Kw 12k RPM has 26Nm rated torque). about the 12k RPM, I machine lots of aluminum work with small mills so usually i'm in the 8-12K rpm, sometimes even higher when engraving and using 1mm mills. I also do lots of 3d surfacing and the high RPM also allows me faster feeds and when making 0.1mm passes on 50cm length parts, time is an issue lol


  8. #48
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    Mar 2014
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    1131

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Do you have a link to the 5.5kw 12k RPM servo?

  9. #49
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    Aug 2013
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    sorry no link, it's from tthis company and same motor body: 5.5KW AC Spindle Servo Motor
    the difference is max speed 12000RPM, torque 26NM, rated speed 2000RPM, max speed at rated torque 9000RPM (I'm not sure on this last value, can't find the spec sheet they sent me but from memory I think it's 9000)

  10. #50
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    Mar 2014
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    1131

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Wow that thing is huge.

  11. #51
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by Azalin View Post
    Wow that thing is huge.
    yep it is a giant motor lol... 50kg beast!

  12. #52
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    Mar 2014
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    1131

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Not that big like yours but I'm in a progress of installing my BT30 spindle to my BF20 mill. My target head speed was 5000RPM but most of the servos are 3k RPM rated. However Schneider makes nice and fast servos. I got a 1.1kw 6000 RPM max servo. Rated speed is 4000 so my final head speed is 4000 instead of 5000.

    I'd like to see yours running soon. Good luck.

  13. #53
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    Aug 2013
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by Azalin View Post
    Not that big like yours but I'm in a progress of installing my BT30 spindle to my BF20 mill. My target head speed was 5000RPM but most of the servos are 3k RPM rated. However Schneider makes nice and fast servos. I got a 1.1kw 6000 RPM max servo. Rated speed is 4000 so my final head speed is 4000 instead of 5000.

    I'd like to see yours running soon. Good luck.
    yeah I've seen your spindle built thread, really nice job! so I'll be watching your project too. hope to see it make chips fly soon!

    my project will take time... I hope to have it done by summer... not sure I'll be able to do that but I hope so...

    best regards

  14. #54
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    May 2013
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    7

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Spindle, well i went or more accuratelly will go crazy with the spindle unit. I found a very very nice BT40 spindle unit, they look very very nice, they are liquid colled and have 4 integrated coolant nozzles I really like it, 120mm body, 4 angular contact bearings and 12000RPM max speed, will go perfectly with the 5.5Kw servo spindle 12K RPM.

    here some pics on the spindle:



    Hey your Machine looking really Good!

    The spindle looks very interesting.
    which manufacturer is this?
    Do you have a link to the manufacturer page?

    thank you!

    Best Regards and a happy new year to all! :cheers:

  15. #55
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    Nov 2013
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    4280

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Hi,
    that certainly looks to be the beast....

    Just running some of your numbers:
    5.5kW 12000 rpm max ,rated torque 26Nm (2000rpm) max speed at rated torque 9000 rpm.

    This last figure is way out.

    Start with the rated torque/rated speed calculation:

    w (angular velocity rad/sec)= rpm/60 (revs/second) x 2 x PI
    =2000/60 x 2 x 3.141
    =209.4 radians/second
    shaft power (Watts) =torque (Nm) x w (rad/sec)
    =26 X 209.4
    =5445 W or approx. 5.5kW

    So far so good. If, as your figures seem to claim, that the motor can produce rated torque at 9000 rpm the calculation is:
    w=9000/60 x 2 x 3.141
    =942 rad/sec
    power= 26 x 942
    =24504 W or 25kW!!!
    This last figure is way out to lunch.

    I suspect what the figures are telling you is that indeed rated torque is available to 2000 rpm but thereafter the torque drops as the speed increases.
    That is called 'power limited' in electrical engineering parlance. The important point is that at slow speed that full torque is available because
    that is exactly the operating condition when rigid tapping.
    The trick used is called 'field weakening', it allows permanent magnet AC motors to have very good torque characteristics at low speed AND YET
    have a sufficiently low back EMF to have a high top speed.
    Field weakening can be used to extend the rpm range of AC servos as well but is not that common, field weakening is very widely used for spindle
    motors like this however.

    Craig
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails torquepower.jpg  

  16. #56
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    Aug 2013
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi1990 View Post
    Hey your Machine looking really Good!

    The spindle looks very interesting.
    which manufacturer is this?
    Do you have a link to the manufacturer page?

    thank you!

    Best Regards and a happy new year to all! :cheers:
    hi Jedi, thanks for liking it :P

    yeah the spindle looks very very nice, I found these guys at Alibaba, here's their web ???????????_????????????????, I've been talking with them via email ([email protected]), Tracy has been very helpful, she sent me drawings with all the dimensions, they also sell the hydraulic cylinder for the draw bar... The spindle isn't cheap tho... 1470USD for the FKS1202 that's the one I'm looking at.

  17. #57
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    Nov 2013
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    4280

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Hi Azlin,
    you may have read my previous post about field weakening. I don't know whether Schnieder made allowances for it within their drive.

    Have a close look at the specs of the servo motor you have. I would guess it has a maximum rpm of 6000 rpm say and yet its rated rpm is only 4000 say.
    Why the difference? You can't get your servo to go faster than 4000 rpm right? Well you could........by using field weakening.
    Note that the maximum speed still should not be exceeded as you risk having the rotor explode with excess centripedal acceleration.

    You may have noticed that in the specs quoted for production machinery numbers like this:
    Rapid traverse =36 m/min
    Max cutting= 20 m/min

    What you are seeing there is field weakening. The servos rated torque and rated speed provides maximum cutting speeds of 20m/min but with field weakening
    the servo can spin faster but with less torque, ie not longer able to support full cutting force, but still enough to accelerate the machine to a higher traverse speed.

    It may well be worth an email to Schnieder to enquire. In some cases its just a few settings to be made in the drive and almost by magic the servo goes faster often
    without you recognizing that at somewhat reduced torque.

    Craig

  18. #58
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    Aug 2013
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    189

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    that certainly looks to be the beast....

    Just running some of your numbers:
    5.5kW 12000 rpm max ,rated torque 26Nm (2000rpm) max speed at rated torque 9000 rpm.

    This last figure is way out.

    Start with the rated torque/rated speed calculation:

    w (angular velocity rad/sec)= rpm/60 (revs/second) x 2 x PI
    =2000/60 x 2 x 3.141
    =209.4 radians/second
    shaft power (Watts) =torque (Nm) x w (rad/sec)
    =26 X 209.4
    =5445 W or approx. 5.5kW

    So far so good. If, as your figures seem to claim, that the motor can produce rated torque at 9000 rpm the calculation is:
    w=9000/60 x 2 x 3.141
    =942 rad/sec
    power= 26 x 942
    =24504 W or 25kW!!!
    This last figure is way out to lunch.

    I suspect what the figures are telling you is that indeed rated torque is available to 2000 rpm but thereafter the torque drops as the speed increases.
    That is called 'power limited' in electrical engineering parlance. The important point is that at slow speed that full torque is available because
    that is exactly the operating condition when rigid tapping.
    The trick used is called 'field weakening', it allows permanent magnet AC motors to have very good torque characteristics at low speed AND YET
    have a sufficiently low back EMF to have a high top speed.
    Field weakening can be used to extend the rpm range of AC servos as well but is not that common, field weakening is very widely used for spindle
    motors like this however.

    Craig
    well that looks right, I had no idea how this math was made and one thing I know, math never lie!
    thanks for the clarification!

    so according to your formulas, this motor torque @9kRPM is about 5.8Nm capable of 8Nm peak under 30min and @12KRPM about 4.4Nm capable of 6Nm peak under 30min

    even so look very nice for my needs, from FWizard my cuts generally are under 2Nm at those speeds so looks more than OK, thanks for sharing that math, really appreciate it!

  19. #59
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    Nov 2013
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    4280

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Hi,

    this motor torque @9kRPM is about 5.8Nm capable of 8Nm peak under 30min and @12KRPM about 4.4Nm capable of 6Nm peak under 30min
    Yes, exactly, those numbers are spot on. Its my experience also that at high speeds the highest ultimate torque is simply not required. The manufacturers
    of these spindle motors recognize that and have produced motors that have kick-arse torque at low speeds for rigid tapping and large diameter facing tools
    and can still do the business at high speeds.

    All in all....pretty damn clever!

    Craig

  20. #60
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    Mar 2014
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    1131

    Re: Large Epoxy granite VMC building

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi Azlin,
    you may have read my previous post about field weakening. I don't know whether Schnieder made allowances for it within their drive.

    Have a close look at the specs of the servo motor you have. I would guess it has a maximum rpm of 6000 rpm say and yet its rated rpm is only 4000 say.
    Why the difference? You can't get your servo to go faster than 4000 rpm right? Well you could........by using field weakening.
    Note that the maximum speed still should not be exceeded as you risk having the rotor explode with excess centripedal acceleration.

    You may have noticed that in the specs quoted for production machinery numbers like this:
    Rapid traverse =36 m/min
    Max cutting= 20 m/min

    What you are seeing there is field weakening. The servos rated torque and rated speed provides maximum cutting speeds of 20m/min but with field weakening
    the servo can spin faster but with less torque, ie not longer able to support full cutting force, but still enough to accelerate the machine to a higher traverse speed.

    It may well be worth an email to Schnieder to enquire. In some cases its just a few settings to be made in the drive and almost by magic the servo goes faster often
    without you recognizing that at somewhat reduced torque.

    Craig
    Hi Joe,
    Drive is an ABB MicroFlex E150. I just searched for "field weakening" and the drive has a parameter named "DRIVEMODULATIONDEPTH". Default value is 100% and the range is <=125%. I don't know if this is the same.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails abbfieldweakening.JPG  

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