[R.DesJardin]

Not a Tormach or a HAAS, but.a similar comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP6ApFSIP9c

But how much did it cost to go fast?

[jwatte]

Haas has a nice online quote builder for rack pricing, but Brother does not. In general, I really dislike the old-school "you have to call us and we have to come by and take you out to lunch before we can even talk ballpark pricing" bull****. The internet is eating those guys, and they will be dead 30 years from now in favor of open rack pricing (but, of course, the discount game will still be played.)

As far as I've managed to figure out on the internets, it's about $80k, so not that much more than a Haas (depending on the model, of course, and I don't know what kinds of equipment and fees were included in that.)

[AUSTINMACHINING]

But how much did it cost to go fast?

Base S500X is 60-65k depending on end of year discounts etc. Some would spend that kind of coin on a base Porsche etc., But the Speedio acceleration is way faster .

[AUSTINMACHINING]

Haas has a nice online quote builder for rack pricing, but Brother does not. In general, I really dislike the old-school "you have to call us and we have to come by and take you out to lunch before we can even talk ballpark pricing" bull****. The internet is eating those guys, and they will be dead 30 years from now in favor of open rack pricing (but, of course, the discount game will still be played.)

As far as I've managed to figure out on the internets, it's about $80k, so not that much more than a Haas (depending on the model, of course, and I don't know what kinds of equipment and fees were included in that.)

When I first started looking, I felt the same way with the pricing thing. Not sure why most the industry hasn't caught up with online pricing etc. I'll say my experience with Yamazen has been stellar. I knew I wanted a Brother, so started looking for a used machine, but being in Texas, finding a used one is like spotting a Unicorn. I called Yamazen in Dallas to inquire about used/demo's, which they didn't have. The sales guy said they have some end of year pricing. Super friendly , very professional said he would shoot me a quote. 1 hour later I got the quote and Spec sheet. Zero pressure and no phone calls etc. Installation and training is free, and they are coming back in 6 weeks just to follow up on any questions, I sent them a question via email a week after install about a post processor question (InvetorHSM). I got a phone call 2 minutes later with an answer. Brother pricing is simple as the base units has a lot of options already included. Pendant, LED lighting, rigid tapping,6 levels of accuracy modes etc. They also break down machining capability in writing write on the brochure (ex. Rigid tap M16,drill 25mm in Carbon steel etc.) So you know exactly what your getting. I priced a similar Super minimill online with a similar options that came out at 61K. The super had more tools (20 instead of 14), Cat40 instead of BT30 and more memory. Here's a a test cut in some Stainless using HSM 7500 RPM at 300IPM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saN-Weijb3U

[GITERDUN]

I think Tormach has found themselves in a tough situation recently. The original founder saw a niche market for a hobby mill that was better than the Harbor Freight-Grizzly offerings, but still at a reasonable price point. Then they began to overmarket themselves through the use of paid sponsors on You Tube and ended up competing with professional machines with not so professional results. Now, the new tariffs are pushing their pricing into the same area as professional machines- the old tariffs were 4.1% and the new 25% tariff is on top of that, so that is 29.1% of the pricing going to pay down our national debt and probably 50% going to the Chinese manufacturer, while the money spent on a Haas is circulated 100% inside the USA and in the private sector.

[jwatte]

I don't think they compete with the factory mills. A basic Haas, landed on the shop floor, is > $50k, and also gulps air and needs phase converter power from a high-amp 220V circuit. An 1100 is < $25k, and the 440 is $15k, and they plug into the wall outlet you already have. As a hobbyist, there's no way I can turn over enough seat cushions and find loose change to afford the Haas (or Brother, or Mazak, or whatever,) but careful budgeting did allow me to put a Tormach in the garage, and it does what I need it to do.
Some professionals they may be able to go after might be people who run their own little service shop -- yes, it's a business, and yes, it makes money from the machining work they do -- but it's not a global-market price-competitive precision job shop environment. The competition there is really "do it on the manual mill," not a work-cell based automated machining factory floor.

[jwatte]

pay down our national debt

That gave me a chuckle!

We've never paid down the national debt, in dollars. Coming out of World War II, we had a really big debt. The dollar amount owed by the US government has grown every year since then on average (except for some slight variation.)
The reason we haven't yet collapsed, is that the GDP has grown faster than the debt, so the percentage-of-GDP debt isn't nearly as big as it was coming out of WWII. In other words, we keep re-financing the debt forward, rather than paying it off, and economic growth ends up paying for it. (Pretty sweet deal :-)
Anyway, enough numbers; back to G code !

[tmarks11]

We've never paid down the national debt

Andrew Jackson paid it off completely. And then refunded money to the states since the Tariffs were above and beyond what the Fed needed. The states squandered the money, and the next administration started charging on the national credit card.

Bill Clinton also managed to make the debt drop by $452B while he was in office.

[keen]

This subject is always endlessly fascinating because we are so torn between envy and caution.! An industrial VCM like the Haas or Brother discussed is maybe 4x faster and more accurate than an 1100.

So rough rule of thumb we should pay a fraction of that cost for a Tormach..That is possible if you just buy the base machine and build the rest yourself... and run it on a much lower hourly rate. I once competed head on with my 1100 against a VMC shop for a medium size part. I got the job one time - they got it the next. Each part took me 1 1/2 hours on my 1100 - they told me they make them in 15 minutes! Tough lesson I learned from this is - I can only compete on small parts.

Cliff

[shred]

A HAAS is easily twice the machine... at twice the price all-in.

For a machine-shop business if you can fog a mirror, HAAS will finance a machine and if your business wads up, HAAS will come take your machine away again.

Tormach doesn't have that (same reason IMO the Chinese discount-VMCs don't do so well), but you can bit-and-piece your machine together over time which appeals to hobbyists and shops that aren't trying to make their margin on each part coming off the machine.

[jttoner]

I'm just guessing, but perhaps also short runs of small stuff the big boys don't want to mess with.

[CL_MotoTech]

A decent used Haas Super Mini mill goes for like $30k. That's 15hp, 1100ipm rapids. Not much of a comparison assuming the Haas doesn't kill you on maintenance to get a used machine operational.

[smokediver576]

assuming the Haas doesn't kill you on maintenance to get a used machine operational.

That would be my concern...... I had a 95' Fadal VMC15 and trying to get some of the parts for that machine was kind of tricky.

[Kenny Duval]

I am in the process of picking up a Syil X7 Combo machine with about 4 hours of time on it. Sort of in the middle. Not as fast or as powerful as the Haas mini mill but the work envelope should cover me for quite some time. By the time I get it to the house, the electrical installed and up and running I should be out about $22k shipped, completely tooled up and running. 3hp 10k servo spindle, all linear rail, 12 tool changer and an LNC controller.

The lack of linear rails on the Tormach 1100MX was the reason I went Syil after deciding against the Mini Mill. The foot print of the mini mill was just outside of what I could make work. I think I have made the right choice for me so I'll report back after I have had the machine for a bit. The first project for it will be to convert my little BF20 to rails and refurb it to pass along to someone else that wants to start on something small and cheap to get their feet wet. While it may be possible to sell it later my plan would be to donate it to a young high school S.T.E.M student to enjoy learning on as I did with it.

[CL_MotoTech]

Syil's look attractive on paper. It will be interesting to hear your experience.

Eventually I will bump up from my G0704 to something better, and I used to think that it would be a Tormach. I'm not so sure anymore. And with a two car garage serving as a my workshop, taking up the majority of one of my bays just for a mini-mill alone seems silly, especially in that my buddy has a VF-2 that's only 5 miles from my home.

[Steve Seebold]

I am in the process of picking up a Syil X7 Combo machine with about 4 hours of time on it. Sort of in the middle. Not as fast or as powerful as the Haas mini mill but the work envelope should cover me for quite some time. By the time I get it to the house, the electrical installed and up and running I should be out about $22k shipped, completely tooled up and running. 3hp 10k servo spindle, all linear rail, 12 tool changer and an LNC controller.

The lack of linear rails on the Tormach 1100MX was the reason I went Syil after deciding against the Mini Mill. The foot print of the mini mill was just outside of what I could make work. I think I have made the right choice for me so I'll report back after I have had the machine for a bit. The first project for it will be to convert my little BF20 to rails and refurb it to pass along to someone else that wants to start on something small and cheap to get their feet wet. While it may be possible to sell it later my plan would be to donate it to a young high school S.T.E.M student to enjoy learning on as I did with it.

As a former Haas owner, I can tell you, you would have had a “WAY” better machine had you gone with the Haas.

I had a Haas TM1 in my shop and if I had known then what I know now, I would have taken some of the money I got when I sold my FADAL, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

Don’t get me wrong, I love my PCNC 1100 Series II, but the Haas was a way better machine.

In my opinion, you made a huge mistake not buying the Haas.

[CL_MotoTech]

Do you have a Syil?

[Kenny Duval]

The TM-2P was actually top of my list for quite a while I just don't have the room currently and am unwilling to kick at least one fairly pricey vehicle out into the driveway to accommodate the foot print. I have no delusions that the Syil isn't less machine than the Haas. I did look really hard at some lightly used TM machines as well as Mini Mills. If I were looking to spool up a business they would have likely been what was purchased. This is truly a hobby for me and something to keep my hands and brain busy with post work life and not a career.

As a retired motorcycle racer that concepts of sunk costs and diminishing returns is not lost on me.

[CL_MotoTech]

Am I correct in that Haas charges like $1500 just to turn on rigid tapping in the control? I remember hearing that, but I'm not sure if it's true.

[Kenny Duval]

My research indicates Haas plays the option game pretty well. Lots of things are optional at significant added expense. It's like dealing with the Porsche of the machining world.

Oh..you bought a car from us that's great. Oh you want the wheels to roll well that'll be an option and will cost an additional $1000 dollars. Oh you want them to roll both directions forward and backwards? Well the wheel rolling option only gets you the ability to roll forward if you'd like to roll backwards that's another $500.

It was pretty apparent that the way to get into one was on the used market with a machine someone had already eaten all the high dollar option cost on.