[Dustn_Chips]

I would hate to admit to any followers how much time I've spent on this topic of what to purchase, Tormach 1100MX vs.HAAS, SYIL, AutoMate, StarFire, Bolton vs. Matthews precision ets. etc My decision to eliminate all but 2 machines boils down to the new Tormach 1100MX versus a HASS Mini mill. My estimations are that Tormachs' free shipping is a way to put a BIG zero in MY bottom line cost in the door to making chips expense column. Purchasing a new HAAS Mini mill, depending on where you live, trucking and rigging would be $2.5K -3.5K . Remember you also have to pay for a HAAS tech. to come to your shop to set-up your new mill, which may involve a Hotel stay, Airline ticket and going rate on his/her labor, or your warranty maybe void.Cost $$$??? and I'm still not even close to making chips.Don't forget possible phase converter and remember we need tooling.
My estimate to your first chip is about 45K Since Tormach has not released the new pricing for 2019 my guess is that the HAAS Mini mill would cost you roughly 18K inc.tax more than the Tormach 1100MX to first chip. One thing I'm very sure about is, Tormach is not trying to compete with HAAS, when we do this comparison we have to compare apples to apples, and this is definitely apples to oranges. If I had 45K to spend on a CNC mill, I would never even consider a Tormach they are 2 VERY different machines. If I had a max budget of 27K I would start my research looking at a HAAS, and quickly move on to a Tormach. Tormach has a lot of people a heck of a lot smarter than me,and I'll bet the 1st. question they asked the developing department was, "Are we trying to compete with HAAS or are we trying to make the best product at our price point" with the answer to that question they sharpened their pencils and went to work developing the 1100MX. which I think is going to be the best CNC Mill in it's class hands down.

[Kenny Duval]

Aside from the larger footprint and additional capabilities of the Haas it would be happier doing its intended purposes which is to crank out parts all day everyday. That would not be my use case and would likely see failures happens from stagnation. The Tormach would be the perfect home gamer machine if they just went the one step further and put linear rails on it. That's the only real complaint I have about my home brew Chinese conversion is the occasional table stall on the X axis. It does everything else I need it to do as well as I need it to do it. A Haas for a hobbyist is just hard to justify.

[sansbury]

Here's the way I see it:

If you're a hobbyist, any of these machines will probably do all or more than you'll ever need it to do. If you have the money and want to buy a Haas, knock yourself out, it's cheaper than a gambling problem and better for you than doing drugs. I'd choose Tormach over all the others because they have a proven track record of supporting the product, and they're the least likely to retire/drop dead/or go under in a recession. Syil is becoming more interesting but I'd still consider Tormach safer.

If you're a business looking to prototype parts, a Tormach might be a very good choice. Prototyping/first-article parts are relatively expensive to contract out, and as a startup your first two goals are to figure out exactly what product the market wants, and how to sell it to them effectively. A Haas or Okuma won't help you do those any better than an 1100, but the 30-50k in cash saved might buy you the time or marketing spend to get over that critical hump. From what I've seen, businesses typically run out of cash before they run out of product.

Given how competitive the contract manufacturing business is, I am generally of the belief that businesses should invest their time in developing a few good suppliers and spend their money on things to grow the business. I think many guys look at the outsourced unit price and don't pay as much attention to cost of capital or their labor to replace that. I suspect that some of the YouTubers everybody watches are turning large amounts of money into small amounts of money very slowly, perhaps slowly enough that even they don't realize that's what they're doing. The ones who are highly-leveraged from all the cheap credit available the past 5-8 years will be in for a shock when the next recession comes and the market's appetite for fancy audio/camera/knives/gun gear (aka "man jewelry") takes a pause. If you bought everything with family money (or similar) you can just dim the lights and drive Uber for a while, but if you can't keep up the loan payments then the end will come at a time not of your choosing.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

If you care about through-put, and accuracy, there is no question a Haas will run circles around ANY hobby machine. They will get most parts done anywhere from 2-5X faster, and with far greater accuracy. I think the cost estimates given here are over-inflated, as I know people (several on this forum, who will, I expect, speak up at some point) who have made EXACTLY the same decision, chose the Haas MiniMill, and were VERY happy they did. Cost was no more than maybe 30% higher than a COMPARABLY EQUIPPED Tormach. If it's for business use, and will be used a lot, the additional cost is easily justified. The incremental cost, if financed, is no more than a few hundred $ per month. You'll get a machine that is FAR faster, FAR more accurate, more reliable, and with a higher resale value. And, you'll get a real, high-performance ATC, FAR better 40-taper spindle, a true name-brand industrial controller with enormous expansion capability.

Regards,
Ray L.

[sansbury]

Ray, I agree that when you add in the ATC, enclosure, etc. that the 1100 gets relatively expensive. The base machine can make anything the loaded one, can, you just spend more time standing next to it. I think you can still get a Tormach to your door for ~15k. That's where I see the best value prop.

The key part in your post is "[if it] will be used a lot." I suspect a lot of would-be startup guys overestimate the time they will spend machining parts and underestimate everything else. A Haas or anything else like it will certainly make you a lot more money if you have a clear and airtight plan to move product. Many (most?) of the folks I see asking these questions are not yet at that stage.

[Steve Seebold]

Being the former owner of a haas and the current owner of a PCNC 1100, if price was no object, I would definitely go with the Haas.

When I had my shop I had a FADAL 3016 a Haas TM-1 with a 10 pocket ATC, rigid tapping and a 5C 4th axis and a heart attack.

When I closed my shop I sold my FADAL and since my Haas wasn’t paid for I sent it back.

Knowing what I know now about the Tormach and the Haas, I would have taken some of the money I got for my FADAL, paid off my Haas and brought it home.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no complaints about my Tormach, but the Haas was a way better machine for the kind of work I do.

Only problem with the Haas was it only had a 4000 RPM spindle.

It had a CAT 40 spindle taper so a 1 inch end mill was no problem. It also had 7.5 horsepower as opposed to 1.5 on my Tormach.

[AUSTINMACHINING]

I think there's no comparison between a hobby mill vs. A real VMC. Too manny differences in the construction of the machine.

[sin_arms]

If I had a chance to do it again I wouldn't of bought a Tormach and went straight to a real VMC right away.

[coffeetek]

If I had a chance to do it again I wouldn't of bought a Tormach and went straight to a real VMC right away.

+1000

[AUSTINMACHINING]

Not a Tormach or a HAAS, but.a similar comparison.

I just made the jump last week from my Novakon Torus servo to a brother S500X1. It really boils down to the types of parts your making and how much you value your time. I've been producing parts for the last 5 years on the Novakon, and it served it's purpose. But It takes so long on larger parts, I was leaving lots of money on the table "so to speak". I can certainly say there is no remote comparison to the two type of machines. The control is so much more streamlined to use. It has safeguards built in to prevent various mistakes, and all functions are instantaneous (good at 2000IPM rapids.). I can stop mid program just by opening the door, take a peek and hit cycle start. Or start at some random point and it safely retracts,collects it's marbles, loads the respective tool and continues on. When I was removing lots of Metal,chip control,flood coolant capacity etc. was a struggle to keep up with. Now I don't have to manage anything other than dumping chips out of the bin. When the operation is complete, the machine is damn near spotless inside. I used to spend a lot of time scooping chips out of the enclosure, digging out of key ways,vise etc. Things are just sooo much easier. The machine is also smaller in footprint because it's designed so efficiently. Also not having to deal with way oil is really nice. It will run of a 30 amp breaker with a phase converter and uses very little air for a VMC. I was in a major bind to get some parts out when the VMC hit the floor on Tuesday. The tech installed on Tues. gave training on Wed., I spent a day learning the control on Thurs. and didn't really expect to make my Fri. ship deadline. I spent some time fumbling my way around the control and started machining 1:30 on Friday. By 4:30 I was headed to Fed-Ex with the parts boxed up. I was blown away at the speed of everything. There were four parts of similar, but different geometry from 10 x 8 x 1" plate. Being my first chips, I was running pretty conservative. The load meter never went over 2 bars and I was only rigid tapping at 1500 RPM (instead of 6000), and my cycle time on the part went from an hour to 17 minutes. The chip bin in the video was from the four parts that were punched out in short order. I still have a lot to learn on the control, post processing different modes (High accuracy 3d surfacing etc). But I'm seriously blown away at the productivity/ease of use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP6ApFSIP9c

[R.DesJardin]

Not a Tormach or a HAAS, but.a similar comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP6ApFSIP9c

But how much did it cost to go fast?

[jwatte]

Haas has a nice online quote builder for rack pricing, but Brother does not. In general, I really dislike the old-school "you have to call us and we have to come by and take you out to lunch before we can even talk ballpark pricing" bull****. The internet is eating those guys, and they will be dead 30 years from now in favor of open rack pricing (but, of course, the discount game will still be played.)

As far as I've managed to figure out on the internets, it's about $80k, so not that much more than a Haas (depending on the model, of course, and I don't know what kinds of equipment and fees were included in that.)

[AUSTINMACHINING]

Haas has a nice online quote builder for rack pricing, but Brother does not. In general, I really dislike the old-school "you have to call us and we have to come by and take you out to lunch before we can even talk ballpark pricing" bull****. The internet is eating those guys, and they will be dead 30 years from now in favor of open rack pricing (but, of course, the discount game will still be played.)

As far as I've managed to figure out on the internets, it's about $80k, so not that much more than a Haas (depending on the model, of course, and I don't know what kinds of equipment and fees were included in that.)

When I first started looking, I felt the same way with the pricing thing. Not sure why most the industry hasn't caught up with online pricing etc. I'll say my experience with Yamazen has been stellar. I knew I wanted a Brother, so started looking for a used machine, but being in Texas, finding a used one is like spotting a Unicorn. I called Yamazen in Dallas to inquire about used/demo's, which they didn't have. The sales guy said they have some end of year pricing. Super friendly , very professional said he would shoot me a quote. 1 hour later I got the quote and Spec sheet. Zero pressure and no phone calls etc. Installation and training is free, and they are coming back in 6 weeks just to follow up on any questions, I sent them a question via email a week after install about a post processor question (InvetorHSM). I got a phone call 2 minutes later with an answer. Brother pricing is simple as the base units has a lot of options already included. Pendant, LED lighting, rigid tapping,6 levels of accuracy modes etc. They also break down machining capability in writing write on the brochure (ex. Rigid tap M16,drill 25mm in Carbon steel etc.) So you know exactly what your getting. I priced a similar Super minimill online with a similar options that came out at 61K. The super had more tools (20 instead of 14), Cat40 instead of BT30 and more memory. Here's a a test cut in some Stainless using HSM 7500 RPM at 300IPM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saN-Weijb3U

[AUSTINMACHINING]

But how much did it cost to go fast?

Base S500X is 60-65k depending on end of year discounts etc. Some would spend that kind of coin on a base Porsche etc., But the Speedio acceleration is way faster .

[D.D.Machine]

Haas does not charge for setup .. Every state has a Haas dealer that supports it . Trying to compare Haas to Tormach is like trying to compare mastercam to Microsoft paint ... I am not saying the Tormach is a bad machine but from everything I have seen of them there NOT a industrial machine.. If your trying to make a point that Tormach is cheaper you need to understand your getting less machine for less money is all ... About half my shop is Haas machines and you need to look at is more as "What do I need to make my parts" Haas does a great job at making my parts and making me a living ,,, Haas is not the best machine made but its more than good enough for my use... you need to look at what your use and needs are from a machine and make a choice of machine based on that ...

[R.DesJardin]

Not sure how you can compare them. The price is no where close, we had a quote last year for a Minimill and TM1, both were over 40,000 without a bunch of add-ons just ready to machine. Saying that they are close in price is just silly inexperienced guesses. There is so much more into what you buy when you are just starting up. No way I would have spent money on a Haas when I just started up producing parts, I had no way of knowing how much if any money I would be making. If you can afford a Minimill then why not just step up to a VF2 so you have a real VMC, its not that much more money.

[ScottDW]

Unless I missed it, you never told us what your intentions are for the machine.

[Spinnetti]

Unless I missed it, you never told us what your intentions are for the machine.

Yeah, and thus, "this makes no sense"... I liked my 1100, but its no HAAS, OTOH, its just a hobby toy for me, so hard to justify the Haas. If I was running a business, I'd go HAAS tho.

[Steve Seebold]

Yeah, and thus, "this makes no sense"... I liked my 1100, but its no HAAS, OTOH, its just a hobby toy for me, so hard to justify the Haas. If I was running a business, I'd go HAAS tho.

I can do “anything” on my Tormach you can do on a Haas or any of those other high dollar industrial machines, it just takes me a little longer and my Tormach didn’t cost $75,000.00.

[warrenb]

1982 Datsun Versus 2018 Dodge Ram.