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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Fadal > Looking at buying a Fadal
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  1. #21
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    May 2012
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Quote Originally Posted by rwskinner View Post
    Spindle motor - 15 hp Baldor motor.

    Gear Change Mechanism - Pneumatic Solenoids and rollers.

    Ballscrews - So I made 1 turn of the ballscrew moved me 0.394" so I guess it is metric screws at 10mm pitch.
    I took apart the lube pump and cleaned it all out and got it working. When I press the solenoid manual button, pressure jumps up to about 180# and stays there for a few seconds then drops to zero. Not see much lube at the ways.
    I guess I might as well replace all the lines and clean the manifolds while I'm in there. Anyone know what size lines those are and how much I need?

    New problem, since I sealed up the lube pump, one of the air cylinders on the speed changer is blowing out the stem seal. Cylinders look like they are crimped together but I hadn't tried to take one apart yet.

    Still cleaning!!!

    Richard
    Yeah thats 10mm screws, same as mine. Are you sure the tensioners are not hydraulic with a small booster there somewhere? Strange, if you have a 15hp motor and drive its a HT, but the HT models are supposed to have air/hydraulic tensioners, and 10hp models are air only. If you stick with pneumatic and you want to replace it, upgrade to double acting cylinders so they retract better and avoid errors. Mcmaster carr sells the exact cylinder you need for dirt cheap. I had to do this mod and it works great. See details here: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/fadal...cal-issue.html

    The pump is supposed to hold pressure. Could be an issue with the pump, a line, or a metering unit. This is a PDI system, supposed to hold pressure and then pump a fixed volume (based on the metering units) when pressure is released, and pressurized again. There are two manfolds with a bunch of metering units, one located under the table on the left side and another around behind spindle motor. They are kind of expensive but not a bad idea to replace them for sure. Pay close attention to the line feeding the table as i said, its a terrible design on my 94 4020, really needs a cable carrier added. Yours may be broken too. If i breaks, you will go through alot of oil, and it will all end up in the bottom of the machine instead of on the ways.

  2. #22
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    Oct 2008
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    1632

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Excuse my ignorance.... How can I tell if my idlers are hydraulic? They look like double acting Bimba's to me and they were leaking air around the stem, but, when I disconnected the lines, one of the lines did leak a small stream of oil. I can take the small line out of the block and move it from one port to the other to change gears and work the cylinders. The small 1/8" line is air on the retract portion, but there is like a 1/4" line on the extend portion. The 1/4" line is the one that leaked oil.

    The fadal manual is pretty good telling you what to check but sure doesn't say where it's located. So far, the lube box, chiller, and the air pressure reg is all on the back left of the machine. The lubricator box is the only place I see to put oil in.

    On top of the head, there are 2 idler cylinders and two sets of valves for them. then an actuator for the detent, orientation cylinder, then the drawbar cylinder/bridge.

    Under my table, for the X direction, there is a real small cable carrier by the front sprint which has a clear plastic lube line in.

  3. #23

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Quote Originally Posted by rwskinner View Post
    The forklift they sent out wasn't the straight mast I was told, it was a telelift so about all I could do is get it off the trailer and sat inside the door. Then I used the old fashion method to roll it into place!

    dang...!!! that's a clean shop...

  4. #24
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    May 2012
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    537

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Quote Originally Posted by rwskinner View Post
    Excuse my ignorance.... How can I tell if my idlers are hydraulic? They look like double acting Bimba's to me and they were leaking air around the stem, but, when I disconnected the lines, one of the lines did leak a small stream of oil. I can take the small line out of the block and move it from one port to the other to change gears and work the cylinders. The small 1/8" line is air on the retract portion, but there is like a 1/4" line on the extend portion. The 1/4" line is the one that leaked oil.

    The fadal manual is pretty good telling you what to check but sure doesn't say where it's located. So far, the lube box, chiller, and the air pressure reg is all on the back left of the machine. The lubricator box is the only place I see to put oil in.

    On top of the head, there are 2 idler cylinders and two sets of valves for them. then an actuator for the detent, orientation cylinder, then the drawbar cylinder/bridge.

    Under my table, for the X direction, there is a real small cable carrier by the front sprint which has a clear plastic lube line in.
    Sounds like you have the hydraulic idler cylinders, which makes sense on the HT. On my 10hp machine, I have air only, and the stock cylinders are only single acting (one port, spring return). Im not too sure on the exact details of the hydraulic system, just know the HT machines have it and unfortunately my machine dont lol. It is supposed to be air/hydraulic, meaning no hydraulic pumps or anything, just a small air/hydraulic booster unit somewhere on the head. Follow the lines and im sure you will find it. I didnt realize the retract port was air, but that makes sense, would make for a cheaper system. Id try and find this booster unit and cheak fluid level.

    Your spindle should be grease packed so only fluids in the machine are way oil, hydraulic fluid in this booster for idlers, and coolant in the chiller. Note that the chiller uses a special type of coolant, not regular antifreeze.

    Ok thats great that you have the cable carrier, maybe somebody already added it on your machine. Thats one pain in the ass job you wont have to deal with.

  5. #25
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    Oct 2008
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    1632

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    I looked at the parts break down then climbed back up there and yes, there are hydraulic boosters up there so that answers that question....
    Thanks for the help.

    Richard


    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Sounds like you have the hydraulic idler cylinders, which makes sense on the HT. On my 10hp machine, I have air only, and the stock cylinders are only single acting (one port, spring return). Im not too sure on the exact details of the hydraulic system, just know the HT machines have it and unfortunately my machine dont lol. It is supposed to be air/hydraulic, meaning no hydraulic pumps or anything, just a small air/hydraulic booster unit somewhere on the head. Follow the lines and im sure you will find it. I didnt realize the retract port was air, but that makes sense, would make for a cheaper system. Id try and find this booster unit and cheak fluid level.

    Your spindle should be grease packed so only fluids in the machine are way oil, hydraulic fluid in this booster for idlers, and coolant in the chiller. Note that the chiller uses a special type of coolant, not regular antifreeze.

    Ok thats great that you have the cable carrier, maybe somebody already added it on your machine. Thats one pain in the ass job you wont have to deal with.

  6. #26
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    Oct 2008
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    1632

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    I was slightly worried when I saw the table had been surfaced. I can see the step in all four corners where they didn't go all the way to the end.
    I figured they did it because of the worn turcite or something, but early this morning, I measured the step in all 4 corners and there was 0.050" removed from the table and all four corners were within 0.002" of each other.
    I don't know about you all, but I *think* that may be a positive sign that possibly the table was cleaned up from a boo boo and not surfaced to tram it in from the turcite being worn. Who knows.

    Found tubing line off the Y axis ball nut.

    Still cleaning....

    Richard

  7. #27
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    Oct 2008
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    1632

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Does anyone know where I could get a lubrication schematic for this 94 model 4020? One that shows which manifold position goes to which point so I can make sure it's plumbed correctly.
    I didn't see anything in the online documents and the parts book, well, not very detailed at all.

    Richard

  8. #28
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    Oct 2008
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    1632

    Re: Bought a Fadal 4020.....

    Hummm, so the front way covers for the Y axis come off by of course removing the bolts to the table then running the table back then locating 2 brackets mounted to the front of the base right in front of the Y+ ways. Remove 2 bolts on each side and the heavy ass way covers come off. You don't know to look there until you dig all the chips out.

    Here is what my Y ways look like. Pictures aren't the best as it's kind of dark in there right now.
    Look pretty decent to me, no scoring, nice and shiny! No scotchbrite taken to it yet.

    Ahh, the table is exactly in plane with the ways according to my 12" Starrett precision level. With the Y axis ways level in both directions the table is level in both directions



  9. #29
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    Oct 2008
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    1632

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Oh, the Baldor VFD say my input voltage is 380 volts and I checked the line going to the VFD and its, 240, 240, 259.
    I figure it would auto detect the input voltage like all my other VFD's but clearly it's not seeing that. Is there a parameter list for this VFD?

    Looking in the spindle inverter manuals it only show how to auto tune, nothing about the other parameter list. I could look on the Baldor site I guess, but I only have the Fadal part number for the VFD.

    RIchard

  10. #30
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    Oct 2008
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    1632

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    This machine has a Calmotion USB to Serial adapter. I haven't tried to use it yet but I'm in the process of cleaning up the rats nest in the control box.
    So they had a 3 way switch in there that allowed you to use the DB25 serial directly, or the Calmotion USB, or WiFi Serial Server by Moxa. Cool, but it was a mess and half ass done.

    I really only need the Calmotion USB device. Here is a weird homemade looking cable from the Calmotion adapter box to the serial cable going to the Fadal communications card. Any clue what it is or why it's homemade looking?
    Is it maybe a null modem adapter with the RTS and CTS jumped? If so, why with Diodes?

    So the DB25 cable from the Calmotion box to a IDC ribbon cable with connects to this adapter, then another IDC to 25 connection to the fadal 25 pin to the comm card.


  11. #31
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    Oct 2008
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    I hate to start a new thread so I will keep this one going. Hopefully I'm not talking to myself.

    Progress made.
    Dumped 10 gallons of diesel in coolant system and using the wash down gun to flush all the nasty crap out of the machine.
    It seems to be cutting all the oily sticky coolant and making it wash off pretty good.

    Cleaned out the lube tank and added fresh way oil. Can't really tell if its doing its thing so I removed the Vactra #2 and added diesel in there and trying to flush it out real good. Hopefully I avoid another $660 on manifold assemblies!

    Good news, I found out I have a 4020HT with Extended Z. Nice. None of the options on the parameters sheet behind the pendant are checked. Strange.
    The ways look good, All the turcite I could see on the X and Z looks fine, so far. Dial indicator on the table shows less than 0.0002" on the X for the full travel and a little less on the Y.

    It's level, I got the tool change height all set and did several tool changes. I checked the tram and the Tram is out by 0.005" from side to side and also from front to back.
    Guess I have to look and see how to take that out. front to back could be head nod, but I didn't see a way to adjust side to side but I hadn't looked hard yet.

    So, the backlash is still pretty bad. I put a DTI on the end of the X and Y ball screw and there is less than 0.0005" in the thrust. I guess this probably means its all in my ball screws. The X is not too bad and can wait some but the Y and Z are pretty bad. I hadn't checked the thrust on the z yet.

    Rapids sound pretty good and smooth. Using the MPG set at 0.010" and moving the X and Z, I can hear some squeaking. Not sure if its the DC motors or the bearings yet.
    I guess I could pull the servos and run them back and forth and see if they squeak. GlenTeks DC servos is what's installed.

    Any decent places that can rebuild the screws and nuts? Let me know please.

  12. #32
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    May 2012
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    537

    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Quote Originally Posted by rwskinner View Post
    So, the backlash is still pretty bad. I put a DTI on the end of the X and Y ball screw and there is less than 0.0005" in the thrust. I guess this probably means its all in my ball screws. The X is not too bad and can wait some but the Y and Z are pretty bad. I hadn't checked the thrust on the z yet.

    Rapids sound pretty good and smooth. Using the MPG set at 0.010" and moving the X and Z, I can hear some squeaking. Not sure if its the DC motors or the bearings yet.
    I guess I could pull the servos and run them back and forth and see if they squeak. GlenTeks DC servos is what's installed.

    Any decent places that can rebuild the screws and nuts? Let me know please.
    Check your couplers on your ballscrews. They are known to wiggle loose and this would explain a ton of backlash with good thrust bearings. Also its better to follow the procedure in the manual and make a program to check backlash, using the mpg can show more backlash due to stick/slip of box ways. I wouldn't expect major changes though, your still going to be way out of spec.

    If your ballscrews are bad, they are not terribly hard to re-ball them if your fairly mechanically inclined. I re-balled my Y and Z (interesting that your 94 is bad on the same two axes) and it made a huge improvement for next to nothing in terms of cost. I lucked out into needing nominal size 3/16 balls for my Z axis and got them from mcmaster for like $6. And for the Y axis I bought oversize 1/4" balls in several sizes from winter engineering. I was dealing with a guy in Ontario Canada and he was great, they also have a branch in California. He also had very reasonable rates on rebuilds but I choose to do it my self to minimize shipping cost (crazy here in Canada) and downtime. My Z axis turned out like new, felt great right through the whole travel. Y axis was pretty good to. No measurable backlash anywhere, but there was noticeably less preload in the middle of the travel meaning the screw was starting to wear a little. Still not enough to affect accuracy on the machine.

  13. #33
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    If you still have the waycovers off, try rotating the Y axis screw by hand while servo is holding it to see if theres any play in it. You could easily feel movement in the couplers on mine.

  14. #34
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Coupling halves were tight and the isolators (flex coupling inserts) were pretty snug.

    I found lots of loose stuff. Ball nut bolts loose, servo motor mounts loose..... All tightened up and checked thrust and still had about 4 thou on the Y and Z.

    Hey, I pulled all the screws to send off for rebuild and ordered all new lube lines, manifolds, and way wipers, plus the high dollar rubbers for the way cover wipers!

    There has to be something better than the sliding way cover behind the table. That is about as worthless as t*ts on a boar hog! Any mods to make them better?

    Richard

  15. #35
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    deleted

  16. #36
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Ha, there is 25 years of clutter hidden behind the camera LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by everettengr View Post
    dang...!!! that's a clean shop...

  17. #37
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Quick update. Ball screws should be back right after new years.

    I walked in and found my shop floor flooded. Coolant tank looks good, no rust, thick metal, but after I pressure washed it real good it has miniature pin holes in it and several places. I could weld them up but I really don't want more to show up and flood my shop again. So, I cut and bent a new one out and am testing before powder coating it.



    Here is the new one....
    Testing fit... Perfect



    Welded ends up and testing for leaks.


    Air lines, lube lines, manifolds, way wipers all done.
    Gear change cylinders and hosing done.

    Still have to clean up the way covers and put new wipers in those and I need to flush and clean out the spindle coolant tank and replace the antifreeze with some new dowfrost i have.

    Waiting on ball screws, draw bar floater, Bellville washers, and a new valve for the lube pump.

    Getting a little closer. Should have it going in a couple weeks.

  18. #38
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    Nice job on the tank, I had to make one for mine too, never came with machine for some reason.

    Your doing a great job going right through the machine, better to do it all now then later on while your using the machine.

  19. #39
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    Found Dear?

  20. #40
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    Re: Looking at buying a Fadal

    1) Way covers repaired, straightened, and new rubbers. I take these aren't stainless since they rusted all to heck after I washed them down with simple green.

    2) Lube system is pumping oil and seems to be doing good. I will know more when I get it moving around but it seems to look good. The PDI Air Solenoid valve leaks. I took it apart, cleaned and reassembled but when pushing the button in, it continues to blow air out the vent. I take it it should release air from the piston then stop.

    3) Drawbar is out. All the bellville washers look new, drawbar looks new, and I did not remove the floater but it appears to be in good shape. I guess I might as well and pull it while I'm here and I have a new one. It's all going back new and the other stuff that came out can go in a zip lock for later.

    4) Waiting on ball screws!

    Have a happy New Years Day!

    Richard

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