[TTalma]

After my difficulties with my VFD (Here's the thread if your interested: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/spind...esnt-stop.html). I am going to buy a new VFD.

I would like to know what are some brands you have had good experience with and what to stay away from. And do you have any recommendations for a good supplier. I don't have a lot of experiance with VFD's so a good supplier is important.

What is important to me is:
Well made product that does not need tinkering (A set it and forget it).
A supplier who can sell me the correct product, (being able to size it etc.)
A supplier/company with good tech support that would be willing to walk me through every step of setting it up if needed.
Price is always a concern, but I am willing to pay more for a good product.

I will be avoiding the Huanyang brand after this.

I've attached a picture of my Spindles plate if interested.

Attachment 408902

[Jim Dawson]

Do you have 3 phase power available?

[TTalma]

I don't have 3 phase. As seen in the picture it is only 6.6 hp. My power to the unit can handle 60 amps conservatively.

[Jim Dawson]

I don't have 3 phase. As seen in the picture it is only 6.6 hp. My power to the unit can handle 60 amps conservatively.

The reason I asked the question is because the motor is 380V (400V class) so this limits your options a bit. Most 400V class VFDs require 3 phase input. There are some 230V single phase in and 380V out VFDs, but most are from Asian vendors. Not sure if there are any mainstream manufacturers that supply a VFD like that.

If I needed to run that motor, I would install a rotary phase converter and a transformer to get 3 phase 400V power available. Then your VFD options increase dramatically, and in that case I would go with a Automation Direct GS3 VFD.

[Richmaple]

I cannot vouch for customer service but real vfd manufacturers have manuals that are way way better than the junk packaged with generic Asian import ones. Step one, ignore most of the vfds on Amazon and buy one from an actual process control place like Automation Direct

I've heard great things about the Lenze SMvector drives.
The WEG Cfw300 is a good one, same with durapulse gs3, and maybe a small step down, TECO.
You should not have to oveesize with a good vfd. Just buy the one with the same hp rating (and amp rating) as your spindle.

[Al_The_Man]

The ones I have used in the past that also have good customer support:
Hitachi
WEG
Mitsubishi
also Allen-Bradly and Telelmecanique, at higher $$.
Al.

[Al_The_Man]

Looks like a 18,000rpm spindle 380v 3ph.
Al.

[TTalma]

I've done a little checking. I haven't made any calls, but It looks like Danfoss, Hitachi, and Delta make a VFD that I can use. I was looking for a TB Woods one, but apparently they sold their motor control division to Danfoss.

I do not know a lot about motors but from what I can gather from online discussions etc, I need a VFD that takes 240V in and can put out 380V. And since I would be using 2 phase rather than 3 phase I would need one rated for double the Kw draw (or double the hp) since the current draw on the 240V will be double, and the math supports this.

And in most instances a VFD that is 3 phase will work with single phase 240V input. But I need to verify this with the manufacturer.

But mainly since I am not sure I will definitely need to make a call before I order one. If you had to call someone to select one for you who would you call?

[mactec54]

I've done a little checking. I haven't made any calls, but It looks like Danfoss, Hitachi, and Delta make a VFD that I can use. I was looking for a TB Woods one, but apparently they sold their motor control division to Danfoss.

I do not know a lot about motors but from what I can gather from online discussions etc, I need a VFD that takes 240V in and can put out 380V. And since I would be using 2 phase rather than 3 phase I would need one rated for double the Kw draw (or double the hp) since the current draw on the 240V will be double, and the math supports this.

And in most instances a VFD that is 3 phase will work with single phase 240V input. But I need to verify this with the manufacturer.

But mainly since I am not sure I will definitely need to make a call before I order one. If you had to call someone to select one for you who would you call?

Well that's not going to happen, what you put in in this case is what you get out, the only way you can do this is with a transformer 240v to 380v and then a VFD drive that is 380v

But even then this may not work very well, you really need 380v 3 phase for this Spindle

All 3phase VFD Drives can run on single phase, up to the max that you can get from your supply as single phase, 12Hp is around the limit for most Single Phase supplies

Buy a Spindle and VFD to suit your Power source which seems to be 240v single phase and 4.5Kw would be around the max Spindle you could run

[TTalma]

Well that's not going to happen, what you put in in this case is what you get out, the only way you can do this is with a transformer 240v to 380v and then a VFD drive that is 380v

But even then this may not work very well, you really need 380v 3 phase for this Spindle

All 3phase VFD Drives can run on single phase, up to the max that you can get from your supply as single phase, 12Hp is around the limit for most Single Phase supplies

Buy a Spindle and VFD to suit your Power source which seems to be 240v single phase and 4.5Kw would be around the max Spindle you could run

I'm surprised by this comment as well. I was given many options of how to achieve what I wanted to do, but not a single person mentioned stepping up the the 240v to 380V with a transformer and then buying a 380V vfd. They offered me VFD's that had step up transformers built in to them to go from 220V to 380V.

Not all 3 phase VFD will work single phase. I was told that specifically some of the VFD's check for this and log a fault, you need to select one that is designed to handle single phase.

In my discussions, the techs recommended the VFD's with the step up transformer, but these are priced way out of my budget. The second best option would be to replace the VFD with a similar sized unit, for this they all recommended 230V,15 hp VFD that would accept single phase input and would put out 230V 3phase to the spindle. I would lose some of the HP of the spindle. Since this is what the other VFD that was sized and sold with the spindle, I am planning to do the same thing.

Fortunately my spindle is only 4.4Kw so it looks like I'm in the range you are suggesting.

[mactec54]

I'm surprised by this comment as well. I was given many options of how to achieve what I wanted to do, but not a single person mentioned stepping up the the 240v to 380V with a transformer and then buying a 380V vfd. They offered me VFD's that had step up transformers built in to them to go from 220V to 380V.

That is possible, these VFD Drives would not be from a common manufacture, that you have been asking about, I have seen them to from China you are forgetting one thing, the Chinese VFD Drive manufactures are good at one thing selling anything someone is looking for, I know there are some that go from 120v to 240v and they work but have a low Hp rating, I have not seen anyone use a 240v to 380v VFD in the Hp range that you need and run on Single Phase, and it work how it should, now all that being said TB woods did have one but it soon disappeared as it was not successful

Not all 3 phase VFD will work single phase. I was told that specifically some of the VFD's check for this and log a fault, you need to select one that is designed to handle single phase.

No that is not correct, you are talking to people that just don't know, you just have to know how to wire for Single Phase power input, they all work even the VFD Drives that have sensors for Phase loss detection which is common with quality VFD Drives

In my discussions, the techs recommended the VFD's with the step up transformer, but these are priced way out of my budget. The second best option would be to replace the VFD with a similar sized unit, for this they all recommended 230V,15 hp VFD that would accept single phase input and would put out 230V 3phase to the spindle. I would lose some of the HP of the spindle. Since this is what the other VFD that was sized and sold with the spindle, I am planning to do the same thing.

Again you where talking to someone with no experience, they where right about having a VFD with a step up transformer, the rest is ridiculous running a 15Hp VFD on Single Phase, the supply current needed would be more than you have available

Fortunately my spindle is only 4.4Kw so it looks like I'm in the range you are suggesting.

Except you have a 380v spindle motor, which will perform very poorly running on 240v and most likely will fail

So if you want it to work as it should you need a step up transformer that can handle 3 times the VFD Drive max output current, and a 380v VFD drive 2Hp larger than you max spindle Hp, 380v 10Hp would be a good match this would be the closest step up from your spindle Hp and would be the normal any good tech would tell you

[Al_The_Man]

Out of the selection I have only used Hitachi, and received good service when contacting them via Hitachi USA site.
Al.

[mactec54]

After my difficulties with my VFD (Here's the thread if your interested: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/spind...esnt-stop.html). I am going to buy a new VFD.

I would like to know what are some brands you have had good experience with and what to stay away from. And do you have any recommendations for a good supplier. I don't have a lot of experiance with VFD's so a good supplier is important.

What is important to me is:
Well made product that does not need tinkering (A set it and forget it).
A supplier who can sell me the correct product, (being able to size it etc.)
A supplier/company with good tech support that would be willing to walk me through every step of setting it up if needed.
Price is always a concern, but I am willing to pay more for a good product.

I will be avoiding the Huanyang brand after this.

I've attached a picture of my Spindles plate if interested.

Attachment 408902

If you had of posted your spindle spec's in your other thread, you may not of messed up the other VFD drive, going by what I can see from this Combo Spindle spec's, you had all the main Parameters set wrong, if this is the same spindle you where trying to run on the other VFD Drive

It does not matter what brand of VFD Drive you buy, very few tech support people know how to setup VFD Drives for High Speed Spindles

[TTalma]

If you had of posted your spindle spec's in your other thread, you may not of messed up the other VFD drive, going by what I can see from this Combo Spindle spec's, you had all the main Parameters set wrong, if this is the same spindle you where trying to run on the other VFD Drive

It does not matter what brand of VFD Drive you buy, very few tech support people know how to setup VFD Drives for High Speed Spindles

This is the spindle that I had on the other forum. I still haven't ordered a new one yet, If you are able to point me in the right direction concerning the settings I am willing to try them. The on I am most interested in getting working is how to make the spindle stop when I press the stop button. I currently have nothing connected to the VFD other than power and and the spindle. So I would like to be able to get that working. and would very much appreciate the help in doing that.

I am surprised by your comment that very few tech support know how to setup high speed spindles. I spoke with people from several suppliers and while I was switched to a couple of different tech because it was a high speed spindle, in every call there was someone familiar with the spindle and exactly with what I am trying to do, apparently it's very common.

[skrubol]

If you use a plain 240v VFD and derate the spindle, you would only get around 4 HP out of it, but get full torque up to around 7500 RPM. I would think a 10 HP VFD should be plenty. As far as a 240V VFD knows, it's a 4.1 HP spindle, not 6.6.
You'll need to be careful with the parameters though, some light math will be involved in determining some.

[TTalma]

If you use a plain 240v VFD and derate the spindle, you would only get around 4 HP out of it, but get full torque up to around 7500 RPM. I would think a 10 HP VFD should be plenty. As far as a 240V VFD knows, it's a 4.1 HP spindle, not 6.6.
You'll need to be careful with the parameters though, some light math will be involved in determining some.

The 4 hp is fine (the 3hp of the old spindle was enough) I need the atc function.

The spindle is rated at 12k to 18k. Doesn't the frequency determine the speed? How would derating this affect the cutting power from 12k to 18k?

The spindle has only ever been used with a vfd this size.

[mactec54]

The 4 hp is fine (the 3hp of the old spindle was enough) I need the atc function.

The spindle is rated at 12k to 18k. Doesn't the frequency determine the speed? How would derating this affect the cutting power from 12k to 18k?.

What you need to look at is the spindle electrical box, remove the cover and take a photo and post it, also look and try and find a model # from that I may have some information on what you have and it may be able to be wired for 230v which some of these spindles can be

[TTalma]

Sorry I took so long to get back.

I spoke with Colombo and and asked for their recommendation on how how to run this spindle. After some discussion on how I will be using the spindle they contacted Delta and the Colombo tech and Delta tech discussed it and were able to recommend a VFD to me. I purchased a MS300 model VFD49AMS23ANSAA. A 15HP, 230V VFD. It will accept single phase at 220V and output 3phase at 255V. It will need power for up to 49 amps, at a full load. Fortunately I have 200amp service, and the wiring for the CNC can handle 60 amps. But I will never reach full load, they calculated I would never draw more than 26 amps.

Colombo provided me with the motor parameters. I need to set the other parameters myself or with help from Delta. I'll be hooking it up tonight, so I expect I'll have questions tomorrow.

To clear a few thing that seem to be unclear (This pertains to my setup and I can't speak to any others).

- What I am doing is not common, most people buy the motor and VFD at the same time for their set ups. My VFD just happens to not work with mine. (I need the ATC not the power) and I already own the Spindle with ATC.
- My spindle is cooled by an external powered fan through an opening in the front, there are 4 triangle shaped channels at each corner.
- There are only 3 connections in the electrical box on the spindle, UVW,This spindle is not switchable between star and delta
- The spindle is variable speed from 12000 rpm to 18000 rpm (it is not fixed speed). It can run at any speed lower than 18000, but should only be run "In air" at less than 12000 rpm, or it risks ruining/overheating the VFD (Not sure why).
- Running the spindle to slow will not do any harm to the spindle, running it over 18000 will
- Using this vfd with my spindle I will lose power at the operating speeds. I will have more cutting power at 12000 rpm than 18000. it will have ~6hp at 12000 and ~4.5 at 18000. (This is fine since I could probably use a trim router for what I am doing)

So why I am I doing this, this way? Simple economics I asked the colombo rep what a 5hp spindle with ATC setup would be $8800. My spindle was worth $2000 trade in. so out of pocket would have been $6800. A new VFD with shipping was $822. A savings of $5978. If I burn this spindle out and need to have it rebuilt, I'll have it rebuilt at 230V (If possible)

[mactec54]

Sorry I took so long to get back.

I spoke with Colombo and and asked for their recommendation on how how to run this spindle. After some discussion on how I will be using the spindle they contacted Delta and the Colombo tech and Delta tech discussed it and were able to recommend a VFD to me. I purchased a MS300 model VFD49AMS23ANSAA. A 15HP, 230V VFD. It will accept single phase at 220V and output 3phase at 255V. It will need power for up to 49 amps, at a full load. Fortunately I have 200amp service, and the wiring for the CNC can handle 60 amps. But I will never reach full load, they calculated I would never draw more than 26 amps.

Colombo provided me with the motor parameters. I need to set the other parameters myself or with help from Delta. I'll be hooking it up tonight, so I expect I'll have questions tomorrow.

To clear a few thing that seem to be unclear (This pertains to my setup and I can't speak to any others).

- What I am doing is not common, most people buy the motor and VFD at the same time for their set ups. My VFD just happens to not work with mine. (I need the ATC not the power) and I already own the Spindle with ATC.
- My spindle is cooled by an external powered fan through an opening in the front, there are 4 triangle shaped channels at each corner.
- There are only 3 connections in the electrical box on the spindle, UVW,This spindle is not switchable between star and delta
- The spindle is variable speed from 12000 rpm to 18000 rpm (it is not fixed speed). It can run at any speed lower than 18000, but should only be run "In air" at less than 12000 rpm, or it risks ruining/overheating the VFD (Not sure why).
- Running the spindle to slow will not do any harm to the spindle, running it over 18000 will
- Using this vfd with my spindle I will lose power at the operating speeds. I will have more cutting power at 12000 rpm than 18000. it will have ~6hp at 12000 and ~4.5 at 18000. (This is fine since I could probably use a trim router for what I am doing)

So why I am I doing this, this way? Simple economics I asked the colombo rep what a 5hp spindle with ATC setup would be $8800. My spindle was worth $2000 trade in. so out of pocket would have been $6800. A new VFD with shipping was $822. A savings of $5978. If I burn this spindle out and need to have it rebuilt, I'll have it rebuilt at 230V (If possible)

Just something if they did tell you this, if your input voltage is 220v it is never going to be higher on the output,( 255v ) basic laws of Physics, it is slightly lower than the input normally

I see you live in NA the supply should be 240v not 220v supply and can be as high as 245v so what is your voltage where you live

You did not need a 15Hp VFD Drive I do this all the time and as I suggested 10 Hp to 12 Hp would of been more than enough, you just payed for more VFD than you needed consequently you will need more start up power with the 15Hp than would of been for the lower Hp VFD Drives

Your lack of posting the spindle motor model # does not help anyone, just from this post you said it had a powered fan that tells me that the spindle has a variable speed as per the name plate speeds, just that one thing changes how the spindle can be run speed wise anyway

I hope it works out for you, if you do not over load the spindle then it should last ok Colombo spindles are quite robust compared to others of the same type

You could of brought a really good Chinese ATC spindle for $2500 and they last very well also

[TTalma]

Just something if they did tell you this, if your input voltage is 220v it is never going to be higher on the output,( 255v ) basic laws of Physics, it is slightly lower than the input normally

I see you live in NA the supply should be 240v not 220v supply and can be as high as 245v so what is your voltage where you live

You did not need a 15Hp VFD Drive I do this all the time and as I suggested 10 Hp to 12 Hp would of been more than enough, you just payed for more VFD than you needed consequently you will need more start up power with the 15Hp than would of been for the lower Hp VFD Drives

Your lack of posting the spindle motor model # does not help anyone, just from this post you said it had a powered fan that tells me that the spindle has a variable speed as per the name plate speeds, just that one thing changes how the spindle can be run speed wise anyway

I hope it works out for you, if you do not over load the spindle then it should last ok Colombo spindles are quite robust compared to others of the same type

You could of brought a really good Chinese ATC spindle for $2500 and they last very well also

You are correct line voltage is 240V (It actually meters at 242V in my shop but close enough). I live in NY and for what ever reason, it's always referred to as "220" even on packaging, and when talking with electricians. It seems like everyone knows it's 240V but calls it "220". I have no idea why, it may be a regional thing, or something that stuck from 100 years ago. So I often use them interchangeably.

I posted the spindle plate in the first post of this thread, which is really all I knew about the voltage etc. It has the model number on it (RV110.22). But I've seen this model number used on spindles that don't look like mine when I google it.

The reason they recommended the 15Hp unit was that since I am running the input single phase the in rush current is ~double what it would be on a 3 phase input. I was border line at the 10HP unit and they gave me the choice, but the price difference was less than $25. I thought that was cheap insurance. It is over sized, but just enough to be cautious.

The fan for this unit screams!, it looks like a fancy PC cooling fan but it's crazy loud! and it's says it's only 160cfm. I am going to purchase a small squirrel cage fan and mount it to the Z axis and use flex hose to duct it to the opening. I can get a 200CFM fan that is a lot quieter.