[CL_MotoTech]

I wasn't exactly sure where to post this, but I think this area is appropriate.

I get the Grizzly catalog in the mail (as a G0704 owner) and when paging through it noticed that they now offer three different mills that are quite a step up from their hobby grade and benchtop stuff. These mills being fully enclosed CNC machines, options include tool changer carousels and BT30 tooling, 10k spindles, reasonable work envelopes, Siemens controls, etc.. Quite serious machines. Keep in mind I have always seen my next logical step up to be a Tormach, maybe a Novakon. The parts I make aren't particularly large but I do look forward to greater rigidity.

The new Grizzly mid level machine, at 3350lbs (including enclosure, tool changer, etc.) is $26k, that includes the 8 tool carousel.

The larger machine is 4200 lbs (again with all extra items) is $30k, it has a 10 position tool changer and about the same work space as the Tormach 1100m.

With a 3hp 10k spindle, listed +/-.0006" repeat position, 400 ipm rapids, 6 second tool change, these machines are pretty damn impressive. At least on paper, they outperform the Tormach, and while there is a price to pay, is still pretty low. When I priced out a fully setup 1100m, being 2hp and 7500 rpm, R8 spindle (with TTS, not a huge fan of it long term), it comes to $21.5k. Keep in mind the Tormach is only good for 110ipm according to their documentation. For any real production work the Grizzly machines would eat it alive assuming it perform as advertised.

It's probably too early to hear any feedback, these machines aren't even listed on their website yet, but they are intriguing.

Pages 638-640 shows you the goods.

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/catalog/2019...atalog_Web.pdf

Screen shot of the mid level machine.

[joeybagadonuts]

CL_MotoTech,
I completely agree, someone like Tormach may take a frosting and many of us would spend the dough for one of these new machines.
Thanks for sharing the dessert.
Live from downtown Burbank, home of the endless Cup-O-Joe.
CNCZones favorite pal, JoeyB

[handlewanker]

20 or 30K???...………..I thought my Skyfire SVM-0 was expensive when I paid the final bill at 6K + another 2K for additional tooling.... vice, tool holders, collets etc.
Ian.

[CL_MotoTech]

What are the specs on the skyfire and what was the price?

Grizzly has a pretty good reputation with good customer support. I would hope this would parlay into these machines as well.

[CL_MotoTech]

Out of curiosity I looked at the Haas Mini Mill. All of the Mini Mills out perform the Grizzly machine on work envelope (though the grizzly has better Z) and horsepower. The cheapest Haas unit, the regular Mini Mill costs $30k, has a 10 tool carousel, and a 6k spindle. When I built the Haas out with a 10k spindle but no other upgrades the price climbed to $34k. The Haas changes tools at 4.2 seconds, so another win for it. Despite this, I think It's a tough call for the Haas over the Grizzly, but I think the Grizzly is still a better deal than an 1100M. If you do production anything, the Grizzly definitely outperforms the 1100m. The Haas however represents a modest improvement yet. A chip auger is certainly a giant advantage that the Haas has, especially in that it looks like the Grizzly has a rear position chip drawer meaning the machine will need significant floor space just for general cleaning.

I managed to find these two mills on the Grizzly site, they are the G0876 and G0877.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Gri...CNC-Mill/G0877
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Gri...CNC-Mill/G0876

Pretty scant details for a $25k purchase. Both out of stock...

[handlewanker]

What are the specs on the skyfire and what was the price?

Grizzly has a pretty good reputation with good customer support. I would hope this would parlay into these machines as well.

Hi, I wouldn't be classing the Skyfire SVM-0 as a production mill by any stretch of the image but it can be used for production if the parts are within the work envelope and the feeds and speeds are not blisteringly out of this World.

I would hesitate to class it as a hobby mill as the specs are rated for a full CNC mill from the ground up not as a retrofit manual mill......the price and specs for the basic model are currently in their on line catalogue.....mine dates back to 2013.

Judging by your last post I think you want something more of an industrial nature and must expect to pay the price accordingly.

I would say that a mill with an ISO30 spindle is the way to go...….mine, due to it's smaller design, has an ISO20 spindle and the tool holders are harder to find at a cheap price.

I opted for the ISO20 spindle as it gave me interchangeable tooling, even though manually applied, and a power drawbar capability as opposed to the original design for the basic mill that only had the ER32 chuck spindle end.

In addition it also has a change over to a high speed spindle capability by way of the split head casting.
Ian.

[metalmayhem]

I highly doubt it's worth comparing a haas against a chinese machine . I never found the hass machines to be all that rigid , but I'd be willing to bet that the mini mill will be able to handle heavier cuts with better precision . Also haas will likely be around for at least 10 more yrs , that chinese mill will be an orphan before then , with no support and no where to get parts .
One thing I've found with anything from china is that press fit means hammer the hell out of a pin til it fits . The quality of assembly and engineering of the haas will likely put one of those to shame .

Something to take into consideration is that China is building this stuff and exporting it , they aren't using these machines . Instead a lot of the major outfits are massively back ordered due to the fact they can not keep up to China's demand for quality machinery

[CL_MotoTech]

I highly doubt it's worth comparing a haas against a chinese machine . I never found the hass machines to be all that rigid , but I'd be willing to bet that the mini mill will be able to handle heavier cuts with better precision . Also haas will likely be around for at least 10 more yrs , that chinese mill will be an orphan before then , with no support and no where to get parts .
One thing I've found with anything from china is that press fit means hammer the hell out of a pin til it fits . The quality of assembly and engineering of the haas will likely put one of those to shame .

Something to take into consideration is that China is building this stuff and exporting it , they aren't using these machines . Instead a lot of the major outfits are massively back ordered due to the fact they can not keep up to China's demand for quality machinery

I'm not sure why you wouldn't compare? Grizzly has a great reputation especially among wood workers, assuming this carries over to the CNC mills I wouldn't hesitate to try them out. Also, the Siemens control is known to be a decent control. Given that's it's a drastically less costly machine than the Haas there certainly is some room for give and take. Depending on the needs of manufacture, it seems there is reason to consider both. I for example don't need something quite like the Haas, it's too much machine. The Tormach always seemed a reasonable fit, but I never cared for TTS and the Tormach's by all measures are slow. Hell, I rapid my G0704 conversion at 180ipm.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think the Grizzly is anywhere near the machine the Haas is, and I'm certain there are machines better than the Haas even, but when considering the type and volume of machining I find that this Grizzly is certainly competitive with the Tormach (Chinese) machines. This of course is assuming it performs as described.

Mostly, I just found it interesting that there is a low cost production type machine that is now competing with the Tormach. Especially in light of there new MX machines which will probably be priced very closely to the Grizzly units.

[metalmayhem]

Grizzly is rebranded chinese machines x2 x3 g0704 etc are all rebranded by various North American companies . Companies like haas , mori seiki , enshu etc build and support their machinery , any replacement parts or retrofitting that they supply will plop right into place . Rebrand companies rely on the chinese factories that supply the machines . Go to alibaba , the same machine will appear under various companies / manufacturers . There are hundreds or thousands of factories making the same products , and the quality will vary from factory to factory

I've done a lot of rework for companies who thought they'd save a buck by outsourcing to china , theres no rhyme or reason to the mess they can create . A company like tormach is building their machines in china as well , but they keep making the same machines and they obviously have good quality control , they aren't rebrands . Nobody knows where the grizzly's come from other than one of a multitude of factories in china .

spec-wise on paper , years ago hyudia pony specs likely matched a toyota tercel , ponies were pretty much all crushed within 5 years vs tercels which some are still running on the streets today

[handlewanker]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if by some stroke of a pen a POTUS decided to ban the import of all foreign built machinery where the same machine or type was made in the 'States, then there would be a whole lot of empty home workshops that would have to resort to either going into debt big time for a home grown hobby machine or buying up some antiquated piece of yesterdays offerings and modifying it.

If you consider that most machinery by design is obsolete within 5 years or 10 at the most, then what you buy today is already out of date by the time it was conceived and got to the retail outlets.

I don't think the Chinese stuff is made to be or intended to be top of the range but it does sell and in enormous quantities and that's not just by price alone.

It all comes down to economics...….if you want to supply the engineering industry with machinery that doesn't break the bank, then you would have to work for less wages and do the industry a favour and the country at the same time...………….if the home grown price for a CNC mill to fit into the small to light industry requirements is needed then I think a price line of US$20,000 without any tooling or extras would be about right......going to US$30,000 would probably be the final figure once the tooling and software were acquired.

I personally don't subscribe to making my own hamburgers when Makkers is just down the road.....OK, so that's not in China, but as someone else is doing it better why bother to get the stove dirty.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Grizzly is rebranded chinese machines x2 x3 g0704 etc are all rebranded by various North American companies . Companies like haas , mori seiki , enshu etc build and support their machinery , any replacement parts or retrofitting that they supply will plop right into place . Rebrand companies rely on the chinese factories that supply the machines . Go to alibaba , the same machine will appear under various companies / manufacturers . There are hundreds or thousands of factories making the same products , and the quality will vary from factory to factory

I've done a lot of rework for companies who thought they'd save a buck by outsourcing to china , theres no rhyme or reason to the mess they can create . A company like tormach is building their machines in china as well , but they keep making the same machines and they obviously have good quality control , they aren't rebrands . Nobody knows where the grizzly's come from other than one of a multitude of factories in china .

spec-wise on paper , years ago hyudia pony specs likely matched a toyota tercel , ponies were pretty much all crushed within 5 years vs tercels which some are still running on the streets today

When I was in the trade, before retirement, the firm I worked for outsourced a heap of their components to China, Taiwan etc.....anything that was out of tolerance was rejected....that is with a batch sampling and a 1% reject rate...…..after that the entire order was rejected.

As a gauge room inspector I rejected some of the tooling produced by our most prestigious preferred supplier and they soon learned to be more careful with their reading of the drawings.

If any company outsources their components then they must apply the same rule that if it's not to drawing it's rejected and not paid for.....where's the problem?
Ian.

[metalmayhem]

If any company outsources their components then they must apply the same rule that if it's not to drawing it's rejected and not paid for.....where's the problem?
Ian.

Grizzly isn't outsourcing , they are buying and rebranding , I highly doubt they are going through every single machine to ensure that the quality is consistent . i look at it this way . i can buy one of those questionable chinese mills or buy a lower end haas . Even if I hadn't work with haas in the past I'd still go for the haas because I know that they are an established machine manufacturer who has proven their stance in the market .
we are talking 30k , it's not a lot of money in the big scheme of things but to each his own i suppose , I'd just stick with the safer bet myself

[metalmayhem]

If you consider that most machinery by design is obsolete within 5 years or 10 at the most, then what you buy today is already out of date by the time it was conceived and got to the retail outlets.

.

I don't know if I can agree with you on that statement . a lot of quality machines have been using the same castings etc for many years , what seems to usually change is the control panel software . the mini mill for example hasn't changed much at all but they seem to be hell bent on making the control software worse as they move forward . I've worked on machines over 15 yrs ago that will still out perform most mills now . The core of the machines haven't changed that significantly

[handlewanker]

Well to sum up my opinion it appears that if you are in the business to earn your crust etc then there is no limit to lengths you must go to have absolute reliability...……..hobby machinists or backyarders are not really in this league as they mostly tolerate all kinds of concoctions and are quite happy as long as the wheels go round.

It's a different matter if you really want to compete against the other guy who's quoting for the same work you are and he's in a 5 or 6 axis mode.

BTW.....a machine that is 15 years old is not up to the standards of a newer machine either design wise or the electronics and if wear and tear is taken into consideration then after 15 years of hard slog it loses all credibility to acquire one no matter how preloved it was.
Ian.

[metalmayhem]

Well to sum up my opinion it appears that if you are in the business to earn your crust etc then there is no limit to lengths you must go to have absolute reliability...……..hobby machinists or backyarders are not really in this league as they mostly tolerate all kinds of concoctions and are quite happy as long as the wheels go round.

It's a different matter if you really want to compete against the other guy who's quoting for the same work you are and he's in a 5 or 6 axis mode.

BTW.....a machine that is 15 years old is not up to the standards of a newer machine either design wise or the electronics and if wear and tear is taken into consideration then after 15 years of hard slog it loses all credibility to acquire one no matter how preloved it was.
Ian.

3 axis with 4 axis capability are still the most common competing mills in the industry

Take a look at the specs of an early 2000's Toyoda FH630S ,these machines are far from obsolete and most of them are still running strong with high precision , and if parts are needed , they are still available . These were high dollar fast precision machines then and still resell for a high dollar now . They will still blow away most machines today
it wasn't long ago that I was running old beat to snot mori seiki mv40's that were built in the late 80's that will still put a new haas to absolute shame .

I understand the need for low cost chinese machines for hobby use as i own a large number of them . But , when I'm looking at a Chinese machine that is within the same price range as a haas mini then why would I buy a chinese machine

[handlewanker]

…..a ball screw is a ball screw and a linear rail is a linear rail...…..any machine so equipped will perform as designed unless the actual frame or casting design was so weak it allowed the whole structure to move under loading, or the quality of the said moving parts were sub standard.

I doubt that the Chinese are so behind the World in design technology that they couldn't come up with a design to perform as required and at a very much lower price too.

If it was just a matter of scraped ways and fitting tolerances then I suppose the West would be a few steps ahead as that is what they've always done and are very slack in changing to other methods.

With CAD being the way of the World it doesn't take much imagination to come up with a creditable design that the Western World could not hope to match on price alone.

I suppose it could be a fact of life that a bit more casing in the right place would make all the difference to a good machine or something that failed to compete...…...this is a lot different when anyone designs down to a dollar just to be the cheapest on the block no matter what the specs indicate on the blurb sheet.

As I have said previously....many times...…….when all things are equal.....the West cannot compete on price when their labour rates are so high......and fobbing the buyer off with an impressive spec sheet is like saying you could have been rich if you didn't have a hole in your pocket.
Ian.

[metalmayhem]

chinese castings are flat out crap . they tend to be full of slag and all sorts of impurities , try drilling and tapping some !

we are talking about nearly dollar for dollar . Haas ct/bt40 , chinese mill mentioned bt30 . The seimens control is a bottom line control which doesn't ever offer a simple g52 which is actually an important code in "production machining". The grizzly ad says nothing about rigid tapping and nothing regarding 4th axis or any other option . haas repeatability .0001 vs .0006 . 7.5hp vs 3 . How does the chinese mill handle high speed machining . If motion gets jerky haas has an option to resolve that IF there is an issue , there are many other options available as well and support from the company that builds them . The mini mill also has more travel

For a miserable few thousand more the haas mini blows away that chinese toy without a doubt , but for anyone who wants to throw their dime on a mass production mickey mouse machine that no one knows where it was built other than somewhere in china , then i say go for it and let us know how it works out for you

[wizard]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if by some stroke of a pen a POTUS decided to ban the import of all foreign built machinery where the same machine or type was made in the 'States, then there would be a whole lot of empty home workshops that would have to resort to either going into debt big time for a home grown hobby machine or buying up some antiquated piece of yesterdays offerings and modifying it.

If you consider that most machinery by design is obsolete within 5 years or 10 at the most, then what you buy today is already out of date by the time it was conceived and got to the retail outlets.

I don't think the Chinese stuff is made to be or intended to be top of the range but it does sell and in enormous quantities and that's not just by price alone.

It all comes down to economics...….if you want to supply the engineering industry with machinery that doesn't break the bank, then you would have to work for less wages and do the industry a favour and the country at the same time...………….if the home grown price for a CNC mill to fit into the small to light industry requirements is needed then I think a price line of US$20,000 without any tooling or extras would be about right......going to US$30,000 would probably be the final figure once the tooling and software were acquired.

I personally don't subscribe to making my own hamburgers when Makkers is just down the road.....OK, so that's not in China, but as someone else is doing it better why bother to get the stove dirty.
Ian.

I just purchased a new pickup truck that cost me $25,000 and that only due to a number of end of year discounts. So I'm not sure how anybody could seriously consider a Haas Mini mill as expensive. The real question in this case is what does the Grizzly machine offer as a mechanical solution. If it is just a repurposed X3 then the price is a joke. On the other hand if it has linear profile bearings, a nice stiff column and other features that make it a decent CNC mill then the price isn't that bad. As for the CNC controls, I'm not that familiar with Siemens but have had mixed options based on some of their other controls. Frankly a FANUC controller would make me feel better.

The bigger problem I have with Grizzly is that this is not their first go around with CNC. I'm not really convinced that they have the infra structure to support such hardware. As for Chinese tools and the sutff that Grizzly sells, I have purchased a small mix of machinery from them over the years and have to say the results are really mixed. Some have been great while others have been disappointments. I wouldn't even consider this mill until I had a first hand look and further we get some reports from early adopters.

[handlewanker]

While it's true you only get what you pay for, that fact only comes to light once the shine has worn off, but it does not mean it holds true in all cases...…..I do not have interests in China although I "invested" relatively heavily in a Chinese CNC mill a couple of years back without any problems and practically all my power tools were made in China.

The proof of the pudding is indeed in the tasting...…..and let the buyer beware etc.

I would not take a note of criticism on machinery unless the goods were side by side identical for a comparison.

At the same time it does mean that if one company has better manufacturing methods or equipment that would show in a product by usage, that would mean you would have to either strip the machine down to ascertain the build quality ...…..which is not even an option for a buyer.....warranty etc or suck it and see what falls off as time goes by.

Mostly, a machine can be judged quite easily by the build quality.....judging a book by the cover is one way but a person with an inkling of mechanical ability would soon be aware of shortcomings.

It's all a matter of longevity if all things are equal.....the car industry is totally up there on that aspect although no two cars are the same so comparison is then a matter of reliability.

How do you judge a good machine from one that will eventually fail?...……..by the experiences of those that bought them, but not everyone puts a machine to the maximum test, first you have to buy one if you can't fault it in any other way.

A case in point.....I recently bought a 10mm 12 volt Lithium cordless drill, brand name OZITO......to replace a Ryobi cordless drill that was total crap due to battery failure.

After sitting on the bench unused for 4 months the OZITO was still full of get up and go...…..but there was no other drill to compare apart from the Ryobi that had NMH batteries that self discharged in 2 days.

The Ryobi drill was crap because it didn't offer alternative Lithium batteries so it's virtually a throw away job.....this would be the same with a machine that lacked the refinements of linear rails and ball screws and only offered a 3 Morse spindle etc etc.
Ian.

[CL_MotoTech]

I started this post because I wanted to explore the virtues of various machines in this price range, though admittedly the range being somewhat large. Especially my interest is in comparison to the Tormach, because traditionally I always believed that machine to be the next logical step for me.

I do think the entry level Haas machine is more attractive, at least on paper, assuming $30k is in the budget. What I don't necessarily care for is the additional costs associated with a Haas machine. In a shop I worked in, we had a used Haas VF2 that we paid $35k for. What a steal! Then it took $10k of Haas servicing to even get it going. Then an unfortunate spindle crash cost us another $3k. We were a low production shop that specialized in rapid prototyping, especially for race car parts. Production type runs are not required.

For my services, I need a machine that will run when I turn it on, do its job consistently, but if I make 2000 parts a year it's a busy year. That type of production is viable even on a machine like my G0704 that I converted in my home shop. Hell, I made 40 parts on it the other night. What these Grizzly machines would do though is bring a tool changer and a professional enclosure with a professional control, and do so with greater specs than my G0704 can offer and significantly better specs than a Tormach. How it all plays out in reality, that is yet to be seen. No debate there. If I went out and got a business loan for $30k at 3.5% the payment would only be $550 a month for 60 months. Totally manageable. If I get a Haas and rack of $10k in additional fees, well I'd be ****ed. The Grizzly and the Tormach the plan would be to perform repairs myself, just as I do now.

handlewanker, I have a lithium Ryobi drill that's rather awesome. Originally it came with ni-cad, but here in the states the lithium batteries fit that same drill. Like 6 years of abuse and it's still going. My father, well known for really abusing tools, has the same drill and it's still going strong after something like 8 years. Every 18 months or so I have to buy a couple of new batteries. Keep in mind I also have the Ryobi sawsall, and two Ryobi impact guns (1 small, 1 large). I'm by no means the hail corporate type, I ended up with Ryobi tools because I already had batteries for drill. But long story short, I've had good luck with them. Bummer yours was ni-cad only.