[wmgeorge]

So bottom line Gerry and Mick, knowing FLA needs some changes what would make it better and keeping in mind its price point what would you suggest? Gerry has already stated he believes Camaster to be 2nd tier machines. So that makes FLA either 3nd or 4th tier or lower.

Also since it seems that a couple of us got a decent machine would you say the number of posters on here with issues is say.... 10% of the total made the past 10 years?

If you think what I posted was the end of the Search try this "adjusting camaster router" on google it brings up a few more.

People with problems tend to complain and post to tell the world if they can. . When we were shopping a couple years ago for a French door SS refrigerator IF you believed all the posted complaints or took them at face value we would have just purchased a old timey Ice Box. But we sorted through the posts, compared and purchased our Samsung. Zero issues and its been running for 3 years.

[micknm]

So bottom line Gerry and Mick, knowing FLA needs some changes what would make it better and keeping in mind its price point what would you suggest?

I would suggest what I suggested in the very first post of this thread and multiple times since. Nate needs to stress relieve and machine these frames.

I'm not suggesting that the FLA is not a good machine. I'm suggesting that it can be a lot better with a fairly minimal change in the way it's made. Stress relieving and machining are the industry standard. Shimming, adjusting mechanisms, etc. are not. They're workarounds for a problem that should not exist. As Gerry said, it might add $500 to the cost, but had it been done, this and other threads complaining about the machine not being within tolerances would most likely never have been made. Bill, there's room for improvement, that's all I'm suggesting.

I can't speak for Gerry, but I'm pretty sure I understand where he's coming from in saying Camaster is 2nd tier. That's a compliment considering its price. He's comparing a Kia to a Range Rover. Both good vehicles. First tier machines are designed and built to be run day in day out under heavy loads. MultiCam builds a machine that rapid traverses at over 11,000 (ELEVEN THOUSAND!) inches per minute and reaches cut speeds of 7,800 inches per minute. Don't try that on a Camaster.

[ger21]

So that makes FLA either 3nd or 4th tier or lower.

Imo, there are two tiers. Industrial, and everything else. You can sort them any way you like.

Also since it seems that a couple of us got a decent machine would you say the number of posters on here with issues is say.... 10% of the total made the past 10 years?

Fineline has only been selling the Saturn for 2-3 years.

You have to define "issues".

They specify "Accuracy" to be .005" or better. To me, that would imply that the machine is assembled to that degree of accuracy. Clearly it's not. So you can say 100% do not meet their published specs.

I think it's clear that this is not their definition of accuracy.

Unless they change the way they build their machines, I can't recommend them to anyone.

[difalkner]

When we bought the first Saturn Nate told me the frame was welded in a fixture and then stress relieved. I can tell you from having to drill the cross members and to re-locate the proximity sensors that drilling into this tubing and end caps is very difficult, so they must be stress relieved or in some fashion heat treated. Maybe they aren't now but ours definitely is very hard.

And from what I recall about drilling it is over 1/8" thick, seems like Nate said 4mm. Maybe that's changed, too, I don't know.

David

[micknm]

When we bought the first Saturn Nate told me the frame was welded in a fixture and then stress relieved. I can tell you from having to drill the cross members and to re-locate the proximity sensors that drilling into this tubing and end caps is very difficult, so they must be stress relieved or in some fashion heat treated. Maybe they aren't now but ours definitely is very hard.

And from what I recall about drilling it is over 1/8" thick, seems like Nate said 4mm. Maybe that's changed, too, I don't know.

David

David, stress relieving is not the same as hardening. It simply equalizes the internal stresses (hard & soft spots) caused by cutting, welding, etc. thereby minimizing subsequent distortion. Think of it as massaging the stress out of the steel.

[wmgeorge]

So I would think the powder coat temperatures of 400 degF or so would count as some sort of stress relief.

I drilled and tapped a couple of holes in my frame, did not think it was extra hard, but more than mild steel.

[micknm]

So I would think the powder coat temperatures of 400 degF or so would count as some sort of stress relief.

It would be nice if it were that easy. Not quite. Needs to be held between 1100 degrees and 1350 F for thermal stress relieving. Most mfrs use vibratory stress relief for that reason.

[difalkner]

David, stress relieving is not the same as hardening. It simply equalizes the internal stresses (hard & soft spots) caused by cutting, welding, etc. thereby minimizing subsequent distortion. Think of it as massaging the stress out of the steel.

Yeah, thought about that after I posted it but I can tell you it is very hard.

So I would think the powder coat temperatures of 400 degF or so would count as some sort of stress relief.

I drilled and tapped a couple of holes in my frame, did not think it was extra hard, but more than mild steel.

I don't recall exactly but I think it took about 7-8 minutes to drill each hole with a brand new bit and well lubricated with oil while drilling. I call that hard.

Nate told me the frame is stress relieved and my assumption is that the process also hardens the steel, at least to some extent.

David

[newcarver]

When we bought the first Saturn Nate told me the frame was welded in a fixture and then stress relieved. I can tell you from having to drill the cross members and to re-locate the proximity sensors that drilling into this tubing and end caps is very difficult, so they must be stress relieved or in some fashion heat treated. Maybe they aren't now but ours definitely is very hard.

And from what I recall about drilling it is over 1/8" thick, seems like Nate said 4mm. Maybe that's changed, too, I don't know.

David

I am with you on that statement David, i totally agree. I drilled my share of holes in the early model Saturn and do enough machine shop work with heat treat ovens and annealing to say they were stress relieved. You can test the Rockwell of your frame and tell.

[newcarver]

Yeah, thought about that after I posted it but I can tell you it is very hard.



I don't recall exactly but I think it took about 7-8 minutes to drill each hole with a brand new bit and well lubricated with oil while drilling. I call that hard.

Nate told me the frame is stress relieved and my assumption is that the process also hardens the steel, at least to some extent.

David

Yes , stress relieving will temper the steel some and elongate the grain structure and make grain structure uniform. 4MM is the thickness and stress relieve at lower than 1000 or you will start to warp . Its all about time and temp and holding said temp within a tolerance. Then you start the cool down slow and steady no oil quench usually. I think you got the first Saturn David and i received the second machine. I have not had any issues except for the rack needs upgraded to 3/4" thick.

[difalkner]

Yes , stress relieving will temper the steel some and elongate the grain structure and make grain structure uniform. 4MM is the thickness and stress relieve at lower than 1000 or you will start to warp . Its all about time and temp and holding said temp within a tolerance. Then you start the cool down slow and steady no oil quench usually. I think you got the first Saturn David and i received the second machine. I have not had any issues except for the rack needs upgraded to 3/4" thick.

Did you get the spacers to move the 1/2" rack out from the frame?

David

[newcarver]

Did you get the spacers to move the 1/2" rack out from the frame?

David

No i haven't got the spacers. I have tried a few times to contact Nate to see if he could send the spacers . He must be a busy fellow. One more shot and i will just order the 3/4" heat treated rack i see he has now and replace the rack entirely.

[difalkner]

I put mine on almost a year ago and shot a video of the upgrade if you'd like to watch -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5lJU2Tup8

David

[newcarver]

I put mine on almost a year ago and shot a video of the upgrade if you'd like to watch -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5lJU2Tup8

David

Yes I saw your video some months ago. Your video is what prompted me to ask Nate for the upgrades. I plan on a few new upgrades spindle, new rack and pinion assembly. I have been trying to get in touch with Nate to source some parts. Great video David, it's a great idea to document upgrades and tips for all of us to learn. I need to learn how to edit video like you. I plan on documenting the upgrades too if i can get some parts. Nate ??

[Erik F]

Assuming you could ensure you gantry cars were square on both sides...could you not just loosen one rail and let the gantry sort our the mess for you, by moving it up and down the table?

[Erik F]

Hey Guys,
I found a video of how Fineline is setting up the linear rails on our machines! Check out the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8FQdzl3EN8

[peteeng]

That's interesting, I wa taught to start in the middle and work to the ends when torquing down. Peter

[peteeng]

error

[wmgeorge]

Hmm not seeing any heat treating here?

[Erik F]

Hmm not seeing any heat treating here?

I posted it as a joke since my rails are out by about 3/16h, my frame is not square, and have and am still having to fix just about everything on the machine. At one point Nate offered to take the machine back...I should have taken him up on it, but I thought I could get it sorted out. Dumb mistake in keeping it.