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IndustryArena Forum > CAM Software > SprutCAM > SprutCAM 12 soon
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  1. #21
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    I've been diddling with SC12 off and on for the past few days and it seems fast enough to me, but I'm only working on a simple job so far. The Slant Bed lathe definition seems even worse than before, though, and it seems to have lost all but one of my tool definitions. For some screwy reason, the SBL-15 definition loads with the spindle aligned along X and a secondary coordinate system aligned as an offset from G54 that the work definition seems to be aligned with. Very confusing. The ZX lathe definition seems better, but I sure wish the SBL-15 definition was more intuitive to work with.
    I am using the version 11.5 machine definition for mill in version SC12. SC12 Tormach Only version has no Tormach mill definition LOL.

    I think you can make it load older machine definitions for sbl15 if the older version worked better. To bad they don't put any effort into the Tormach end of that software. I am using it for now but I wonder how much longer.

  2. #22
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Still have some lingering problems with lathe CAM in SC12. FWIW, my install had both Tormach mill and lathe definitions as the defaults for posting. Both were dated February 28, 2019.

  3. #23
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    Still have some lingering problems with lathe CAM in SC12. FWIW, my install had both Tormach mill and lathe definitions as the defaults for posting. Both were dated February 28, 2019.
    I would hope they fixed the install script problem after I reported it! I certainly could or would, if I had access to the software distro system

    My install defaulted to sbl15 and that was it, no mill, lol. Like I mentioned above, typical B.S. of the unprofessional people at Sprutcam for a product made for Tormach only. I was told to use my old machine definitions from SC11. Yup easy enough for me as I have experience with this B.S. and made me think of the collision error you would get from the chip pan on version 10. Again LOL, silly to release something like that to distribution and MAKE users waste time sorting out simple problems that someone intentionally put there to cause problems for Tormach users only!

    Be nice to think SC would use an industry standard for all the machine definitions and operations. Not some guy somewhere that likes to do it this way and so they use that method.

  4. #24
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    All rants aside about install issues that are frustrating and time consuming. Like most complex software after you get everything setup and working it does the job. New interface is cleaner and easy to adapt to. All the fixture, stock and part models are getting more easy to control, making multi fixture, multiple part, multiple offset programs a little more straight forward. Some of the more automatic operations like plane and waterline generate more efficient and or predictable tool paths. Still some quirks when going from rough water line to finish water line operations. Depending on what model features and levels you machining it can unexpectedly generate a tool path that gouges part, even when correct safe levels are set. Mostly happy to be back setup and generating good code for cool parts with little drama and effort.

  5. #25
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    I'm finding the WCS and lathe coordinate system very confusing. For some reason, SC (all versions so far as I know) insist that the lathe Z (spindle) axis be aligned along the WCS X axis. Why on earth would they do that? Also the revisions to the tool library seem to insist on changing units from inch to mm, so that a lathe tool defined with a 5" long tool holder becomes 5 mm long.

  6. #26
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    I'm finding the WCS and lathe coordinate system very confusing. For some reason, SC (all versions so far as I know) insist that the lathe Z (spindle) axis be aligned along the WCS X axis. Why on earth would they do that? Also the revisions to the tool library seem to insist on changing units from inch to mm, so that a lathe tool defined with a 5" long tool holder becomes 5 mm long.
    When you look at the uber complex multi spindle, multi tool, multi axis machines with live tooling the software supports. I can kind of see why it has some different initial machine WCS. I would think you could set the program to operate more normal with say PP or like other cam programs. If this is part of the machine definition module then your stuck. "no access to this module". I would probably have little problem adapting to the X axis issue as long as the code generates correctly. WCS and part orientation is straight forward to set as desired in cad program on the model and then sent to cam. This method works well for one WCS/UCS like a sbl15 would use, then if more are require like a mill then (yoyo) your on your own.

    The conversion problem is one that bites. Data set problems like this cause real long term headaches for users unless fixed.

  7. #27
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    When you look at the uber complex multi spindle, multi tool, multi axis machines with live tooling the software supports. I can kind of see why it has some different initial machine WCS. I would think you could set the program to operate more normal with say PP or like other cam programs. If this is part of the machine definition module then your stuck. "no access to this module". I would probably have little problem adapting to the X axis issue as long as the code generates correctly. WCS and part orientation is straight forward to set as desired in cad program on the model and then sent to cam. This method works well for one WCS/UCS like a sbl15 would use, then if more are require like a mill then (yoyo) your on your own.

    The conversion problem is one that bites. Data set problems like this cause real long term headaches for users unless fixed.
    I'm not familiar with the world of options for turn machine tools, but so far as I know every CNC lathe made has the primary lathe axis defined as the Z-axis. If that's true, SprutCAM's definition makes no sense to me. On the other hand, I've started looking into MecSoft's Visual Turn and it looks like they do something similarly weird with axis orientation but at least explain in a tutorial how to deal with it. I'll dig into that a bit more and maybe it will help to understand SC's approach, or at least how to work around it.

    I'm pretty sure that SC has had unit problems (Imperial vs metric) for the last several versions. It can be dealt with, though constant vigilance is required.

  8. #28
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    WCS and part orientation is straight forward to set as desired in cad program on the model and then sent to cam. This method works well for one WCS/UCS like a sbl15 would use, then if more are require like a mill then (yoyo) your on your own.
    As long as you set the desired WCS location CORRECTLY in cad it works well Because its so easy to do this way its also easy to goof up. Somehow I set it a tiny amount offset and didn't notice until I made first part at the mill lol. Thought the day was going way to good. Back to the drawing board.

  9. #29
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    mountaindew,

    I've had no problems with SC and the WCS on mill projects, only with lathe projects and specifically with SC12. SC 11 seemed to work much better for me on lathe projects. I downloaded and installed the VisualCAM program and will see how that goes.

  10. #30
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    mountaindew,

    I've had no problems with SC and the WCS on mill projects, only with lathe projects and specifically with SC12. SC 11 seemed to work much better for me on lathe projects. I downloaded and installed the VisualCAM program and will see how that goes.
    Not good to upgrade and find the new version is more of a problem. Real close to buying a cnc lathe and I don't want to change and or learn Cam programs just to use it. The mill section of the program works well. Everyday I find or see different, better or faster way to setup operations and get results. Of course as long as I do everything right, hehe. I still get bit now and then and its silly because most the time I know what to check or what I did wrong.

  11. #31
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    It could just be me and a failure to grasp geometrical concepts. VisualCAM is also confusing me a bit, but they have much better tutorials. Jacob at SprutCAMAmerica was planning to do a tutorial or two soon. {Hint, hint}

  12. #32
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    It could just be me and a failure to grasp geometrical concepts. VisualCAM is also confusing me a bit, but they have much better tutorials. Jacob at SprutCAMAmerica was planning to do a tutorial or two soon. {Hint, hint}
    I updated the other day and noticed the program is more in line with help file. They made a bunch of changes to the tool system and Im trying to understand its overall method. They added tool name/info next to operation in tree, kind of handy. Looks like they are trying to make this a little less confusing and with more consistent use, edit, definition …………of tools. And not so willy nilly. Still hard to say what they are doing because they don't explain their tool crib/database methodology anywhere.

  13. #33
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Their are some bugs, but today I checked SC12 updater and see lots of things listed fixed, will install update and play with it, big big bug I found and reported was going from SC11.5 to SC12 and trying to edit some WCS on the individual folder or operations and clicking on the area to change them would cause SC to crash, and was repeatable, I stopped because I could not use it and went back to SC11.5, this has NOW been fixed!

    It takes time to update all of my systems with latest versions, SC is a bit slow and requires the dongle so I have to do it one machine at a time

    I see that project to sketch at least with SC11.5 file in SC12, causes circles that are broken almost always into 2 sections, the projection causes the center points to be off the tangent points ok, but this is strange, also the sketch mode the dimension units are massive, assuming scaling issue due to inch vs metric

    at least now I can edit the sketch dimensions, this is great for rough vs finish or for quick basic parts to machine, its far easier then the old drawing method, which still doesnt make sense to have drawing and sketch? they are different but I think eventually should be one

  14. #34
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    also, I do not see the check mark to use store tool numbers as the tool, which is how I do things, you can toggle that in the csv file


    SPRUTCAM TOOLS LIBRARY

    <HEAD SECTION>
    LIBNAME = Tools library.
    LIBVERSION = 6
    SECTIONSNUMBER = 1
    LIBUNITS = 0
    ISTOOLNUMBERDEFINE = 1
    LIBCOMMENTS = Library of the standard installation.
    <END HEAD SECTION>

    the bold red has to be a 1, if you do not want to use "store" tool numbers H's and your D values etc...

    Looked at the area where you can select your machine, and under the tab where you can see the tool lists their is a check mark option

  15. #35
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Right now I found another problem,. Running alibre cad with the add-on enabled.

    Opening a sc11.5 file in sc12 then trying to update model, it is red and even if pointed to right file does not want to import.

    If I delete the model I can import the model just fine, but you lose some of the wcs and operation faces selections etc...

    It's possible that this might be just a version incompatibility

    This might apply to other cad too.

  16. #36
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by drutort View Post
    also, I do not see the check mark to use store tool numbers as the tool, which is how I do things, you can toggle that in the csv file


    SPRUTCAM TOOLS LIBRARY

    <HEAD SECTION>
    LIBNAME = Tools library.
    LIBVERSION = 6
    SECTIONSNUMBER = 1
    LIBUNITS = 0
    ISTOOLNUMBERDEFINE = 1
    LIBCOMMENTS = Library of the standard installation.
    <END HEAD SECTION>

    the bold red has to be a 1, if you do not want to use "store" tool numbers H's and your D values etc...

    Looked at the area where you can select your machine, and under the tab where you can see the tool lists their is a check mark option

    How Sprutcam used tool numbers has always been annoying to me! In the past Tool ID and number # were the same or maybe not when stored in database but could be completely different with different parameters in a part program or in different operations even. "willy nilly data management" and time consuming to compare all the fields. Looks like now there are different text highlights to warn you of some differences. And a few options for data management and how to keep it better aligned and updated.
    I have used a 2 crib strategy for a while, with a very large master tool crib file. Then I pull from it to build and maintain tools in USE file with numbers that align with PP. Might be a little more straight forward to manage these files now.


    File import with WCS from Ironcad has always been one way. I did have to uninstall and reinstall plugin to get it working right. If I use a export file like iges then it will warn me of changes and allow update but no WCS on import.
    I send direct to cam from cad and there is no link back. Either way it does not retain or I cant trust it to retain links to features. So I end up repeating the job setup step for every operation.

  17. #37
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    How Sprutcam used tool numbers has always been annoying to me! In the past Tool ID and number # were the same or maybe not when stored in database but could be completely different with different parameters in a part program or in different operations even. "willy nilly data management" and time consuming to compare all the fields. Looks like now there are different text highlights to warn you of some differences. And a few options for data management and how to keep it better aligned and updated.
    I have used a 2 crib strategy for a while, with a very large master tool crib file. Then I pull from it to build and maintain tools in USE file with numbers that align with PP. Might be a little more straight forward to manage these files now.


    File import with WCS from Ironcad has always been one way. I did have to uninstall and reinstall plugin to get it working right. If I use a export file like iges then it will warn me of changes and allow update but no WCS on import.
    I send direct to cam from cad and there is no link back. Either way it does not retain or I cant trust it to retain links to features. So I end up repeating the job setup step for every operation.

    Ya its true for many CAD software, I think the more expensive packages have smart identification and classification of features so it does not matter that much to them and they work probably far better and with more accuracy, with retaining the same stuff more often.

    with SC it seems that with my CAD if I do not add new features that create new faces or edges all that stuff, then it will work fine. For example when I draw in CAD and use a parameter file to change the dimensions of the part then SC will about 80% of the time retain all my stuff the same, but if I do regenerate full model I think it does something internally in the CAD and different internal faces, edges are assigned and then SC screws things up, and I have to reselect all the faces edges per operation.

  18. #38
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by drutort View Post
    Their are some bugs, but today I checked SC12 updater and see lots of things listed fixed, will install update and play with it, big big bug I found and reported was going from SC11.5 to SC12 and trying to edit some WCS on the individual folder or operations and clicking on the area to change them would cause SC to crash, and was repeatable, I stopped because I could not use it and went back to SC11.5, this has NOW been fixed!

    I didn't notice this before!
    They changed they way ucs are defined a little and it does inhibit my ability to edit my templates ucs to different values for g54-g59. Much of the time I use predefined templates that have g54-g59 setup for each side of a import part model. I then adjust values to move each ucs as desired. No big deal and the very reason I have them all setup in advance. Templates can be used as is, but better to set down and build a new template using the new interface. Just had to change where I set each ucs1-6 to g54-g59. Works more or less the same as before and now I can edit or set user defined ucs to what I want. Fixtures, stock, and part models all work the same as before for each ucs.

  19. #39
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Just found another problem in SC 12 when using SC 11 project files - at least some drilling ops don't seem to carry over from 11 to 12. I needed to delete the original drilling ops (spot and normal drill op) and create them from scratch before they would actually do anything in the posted file. The errant ops simulated perfectly but didn't make any actual holes - Zmax ad Zmin were ignored.

  20. #40
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    Re: SprutCAM 12 soon

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    Just found another problem in SC 12 when using SC 11 project files - at least some drilling ops don't seem to carry over from 11 to 12. I needed to delete the original drilling ops (spot and normal drill op) and create them from scratch before they would actually do anything in the posted file. The errant ops simulated perfectly but didn't make any actual holes - Zmax ad Zmin were ignored.
    It would catch me if the tool and operation were listed at start of g-code file but no code in body. I have seen this before for different reasons and not clear if it was my problem or the programs. I tend to use CAD, CAM, Calculators...….. all at same time and this can make the system act flakey. I see an error with how 2d operations loose surface level values if you delete any operation before it. This possible error has been there for years. I know to just open the parameters dialog box and then close it to fix the values. Because this has been there for years I figured it was more me and how I set it up or something and not an error in the program updating the data.

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