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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
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  1. #61
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    Mar 2019
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    tnx

    https://www.beamer.ir/
    tnx you for this article

  2. #62
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    Feb 2009
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    281

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by 4world View Post
    I was almost about to place an order for the Premium package of PCNC440 (> $12,000) when I came across the following YouTube video review:



    Refunded : My Tormach Story

    Published just around 6 months ago, in the comments section there are plenty of others who have had similar experiences so it definitely is not a one off case.

    I read a bunch of comments (not all) but it appears that Tormach didn't even respond to this review!

    I simply cannot take a risk with any product from such a company.

    Anybody has any comments on this?
    Well, you found out that criticising Tormach here will be sort of like standing up and yelling FRAUD at a Scientology meeting. The original founder of Tormach had a vision for a reasonably priced machine for home use with decent quality. He was also clever enough to use social media and sponsored owners to promote an image of a friendly user community. However, like all businesses that grow beyond the scope of a visionary founder, Tormach is now a company with a large fixed overhead requiring a minimum amount of sales every day to pay the bills, and that income comes from employees whose vision is to retain their jobs and earn commissions. I watched the video a few times myself, and it was clear that the guy was not running down the machine, but rather complaining that they promised a machine that would do his work, and when it failed to perform, they then gave him a rather hard time and charged him some pretty large fees for the return of the unit.

  3. #63
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    Oct 2008
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    2100

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    3/ much nicer in what sense . The machine is built on the same principles as the tormach , which means it will need similar maintenance . There is one reseller that I know of in the US and from what I read support isn't to hot either . You'll find complaints about the syil to.
    LOL. There are three US Syil resellers in the USA that I am aware of. Syil America, Charter Oak, and a third that goes through them and resells them under their own label.

    As to complaints about Syil… Um, Yeah! LOL. I have three Speedmasters (and a Tormach 1100S3). They all had problems. Some pretty major. I have a whole list of bad out of the crate issues including incompletely drilled oil passages and in one case a crooked saddle due to a bad broken or incomplete casting. It cut trapezoids instead of rectangles. None of them have the original spindle and one had noisy bearings the first day it was powered up. My dirty laundry list is quite long. I got some help from my dealer initially, but that last time I contacted their sales person they didn't even follow through to SELL me parts at FULL PRICE. I wound up third party sourcing anything I needed after that. As to Syil China... Well when I was going through the dealer and the dealer threatened to stop selling their machines they sent me a new saddle for the bad one, but it took that threat before they even considered it. Even after I posted a video using an A grade granite square showing it didn't cut square. Other requests to deal with Syil China were met with:

    a) We are going on holiday, but we will take care of your problems when we get back.
    b) We would like somebody who makes videos showing our machines like NYC CNC does for Tormach.
    c) Oh, we have no record of your complaint from a year and a half ago. Would you start over again.

    That being said Tormach is no lily white company. The machine itself was mostly ok out of the crate, but I received a bad computer. After several days of trouble shooting they very grudgingly sent me a used and BROKEN replacement which fortunately I was able to fix. Mostly the machine works, but it has some design limitations. I wound up scrapping the automatic tool changer, and reconfiguring the power draw bar for better holding force. There was also superfluous equipment that should have been deleted from the package and the price reduced accordingly. What in the hell do you need a splashguard or pan sides for when your package includes a full enclosure. Otherwise it works ok for mostly light cuts. I can't get close to its real claimed horsepower load though. It does ok for what I bought it for. Mostly secondary work and some very simple mold work in aluminum, With rare, light work in 4140HT. I said ok. Not great. Is it worth what I paid? No I don't think so. I bought an advanced package that approached the price of a Haas Mini Mill. Would I buy another one. Maybe, but there is a lot of crap I sure wouldn't buy with it. The base model with an enclosure and power draw bar might be ok, but I'd have to do some research on price comparisons to see what I think.

    Would I buy another Syil? Well even that I use two of my three Speedmasters every day, and the third gets used atleast 2-3 days per week. Probably not. It took me a few weeks to get my Tormach running, but it took me months to fix my Syils. It was six months before I had the second one of two ordered together fixed and working properly. I could have built a machine faster.

    The biggest reason I might not buy ANY of the machines listed in this post though as my next machine is that none of them are ideal for the bulk of my "paying" work. I need high spindle speed, but not necessarily high torque spindles. 24K rpm on the Speedmasters is I consider the low end of the range for some of the cutters I run everyday. Even their 25iss acceleration often doesn't get upto programmed speed in complex 3D machining. They are also a smaller work envelope than I would really like to have at (with custom rails on two of them) 6.5 by 11.6 XY envelope. No bigger than my Taig if somewhat faster and heavier. My next 3/4 axis machine while likely be a ground up build of a bridge mill with a high rpm grinding spindle.

    That being said if you just compare build quality the Tormach is better than any of my 3 Syils even though once fixed the Syils have higher specs (except work envelope). HP, Feed, acceleration. Tolerance is about equal even though the X5s have linear rails and the 1100 has dovetails. The X4 is ok if adjusted regularly with its set screw adjusted gibbs and dovetails.

    I personally think Nerdly is praising the Syil machine for reason b) listed above.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  4. #64
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    Feb 2007
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    1538

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I can't thank you guys enough as your sincere inputs have helped me save money and time (and whatever hair remain ), and gain good knowledge to consider this purchase perhaps a year or two later.[/QUOTE]


    Thanks 4world for taking the time to give feedback. You show really good methodical approach, open mindedness and self awareness. Cliff

  5. #65
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    Feb 2007
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    1538

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Bob - You said: "I wound up scrapping the automatic tool changer "

    Please tell me more, some of us are considering buying one.

    See this video please:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY6GCQaBXoo&t=57s


    Cliff

  6. #66
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    Apr 2013
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    1788

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    I wound up scrapping the automatic tool changer, and reconfiguring the power draw bar for better holding force. .
    Any details of how you improved the power draw bar would be greatly appreciated.

  7. #67
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    Oct 2008
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    2100

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I increased the spring stack, and then cranked it down tight so 120PSI just barely opened the collet enough for the tool holder to fall out slowly. I can take medium no chatter cuts with a 1/2" 3 flute in aluminum without tool walkout now. That was impossible with the Tormach suggested settings and spring stack. I did have to cut the top of the draw bar down slightly to have enough clearance after adding spring washers.

    When I first installed the tool changer it worked great except that I couldn't use larger tools at decent load without having them walk out of the collet. This was setup exactly per Tormach documentation. I ran a few jobs from start to finish without entering the machine room. Then one day I had a tool change crash, and I spent two days readjusting everything and recalibrating, and then promptly having another tool change crash. I had work that needed to get done and it was wasting my time and causing me to fall behind. I ripped the tool changer off and set it on the floor just outside of my machine room. Its still setting there where I left it. I might have pushed it over a little with my foot, but its still setting on the floor in the same spot months later. I would note some users claim their tool changers work just fine, and others have documented similar issues with their tool changer.

    After adjusting the PDB, when doing manual tool changes with the push button or foot switch I have hardly any issue at all. Most I think were self induced. Its fast. Just the ability to load all my tool holders in the tool table and set the height saves me a lot of time. I touch off one time, and keep an eye on the machines with cameras feeding into my office. When I see the head go up (I added a G53 Z0 F100 to my post processor for tool changes) I know its time to change the tool. Its quick. Push the button, swap the tool. Release the button, and press start. Sure its not as great as an ATC that works, but its pretty good.

    While I am pretty upset about the $4K piece of equipment gathering dust on the floor I am pretty happy with tool less and tool changes with no additional touch off required. In fact I am so happy with how that works that I ordered an ISO20 spindle for one of my X5 Speedmaster mills to see how that works out. If it works well I will get a second one for the other X5 and see if I can find one that will fit in the X4.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  8. #68
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    May 2007
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    1026

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I just installed one of the new MX-derived ATCs on my 1100 last week, I'll let y'all know what I think once I've had a chance to use it for a few dozen hours. I'm one of those people who mostly does light aluminum milling, so I might be the best-case scenario.

  9. #69
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    Jul 2018
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    38

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by instructor37 View Post
    Well, you found out that criticising Tormach here will be sort of like standing up and yelling FRAUD at a Scientology meeting. The original founder of Tormach had a vision for a reasonably priced machine for home use with decent quality. He was also clever enough to use social media and sponsored owners to promote an image of a friendly user community. However, like all businesses that grow beyond the scope of a visionary founder, Tormach is now a company with a large fixed overhead requiring a minimum amount of sales every day to pay the bills, and that income comes from employees whose vision is to retain their jobs and earn commissions. I watched the video a few times myself, and it was clear that the guy was not running down the machine, but rather complaining that they promised a machine that would do his work, and when it failed to perform, they then gave him a rather hard time and charged him some pretty large fees for the return of the unit.
    I never met the man, but Greg Jackson had a vision and he changed things forever. I don't think most people even realize what "Personal CNC" really means by now. Even Tormach themselves no longer use the term PCNC for their newer machines. Things have changed quite a bit at Tormach and I think they moved away from the original vision especially with their M/MX machines.

  10. #70
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    Jul 2004
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    1424

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    LOL. There are three US Syil resellers in the USA that I am aware of. Syil America, Charter Oak, and a third that goes through them and resells them under their own label..
    Syil America? Hard to believe they are still limping along. They had quite the checkered past in their day, back when they were Big Dog Metalworks. But that was years ago.

    It is probably revealing that they are run out of "Bayshore Auto Repair" shop in Coos Bay... and not a single indication that this place is anything other than an auto repair and parts store. Anyone visited them in person recently? The owner of "Syil America" is the same person who owns the Auto Repair shop.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Charter Oak Automation? You sure they are still in business? Haven't read a single customer testimonial in years.

    I assume the reseller you are talking about is "Element Machine Tools" in Maine. They don't seem to have a physical address. The good thing about them is that they seem to build their own controllers instead of requiring on Syil factory controllers.
    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3, Grizzly G0709 lathe, Clausing 8520 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.

  11. #71
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    Feb 2007
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    1538

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by sansbury View Post
    I just installed one of the new MX-derived ATCs on my 1100 last week, I'll let y'all know what I think once I've had a chance to use it for a few dozen hours. I'm one of those people who mostly does light aluminum milling, so I might be the best-case scenario.
    Thanks - Keen to hear how you get on. Cliff

  12. #72
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    Dec 2008
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    740

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    I think you'll find that wasn't my post. That text came from metalmayhem: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/torma...ml#post2266346.

    Just for the record, on my 1100 I've been using the standard spring stack with 10 bar (145 psi) for the last 6 years and have never had a pullout issue.
    Step

  13. #73
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    Jul 2004
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    1424

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    Boy, it would be hard to me to disagree more. I got my first 3D printer about 6 weeks ago....
    ...

    I am with Ray. I have two 3D printers... frequently both of them are running around the clock. I maybe end up scrapping 1 in 20 parts. Almost bulletproof, and "dialing it in" isn't hard.

    "Makers" moving from the 3d printer experience are bound to be very disappointed when they get to CNC Mills. The mistakes you make on your mill costs you a minimum of $40 (scrapped endmill)... and maybe thousands of dollars in machine repairs. The 3D printer mistake costs you $1 in plastic, and absolutely no damage to the printer.
    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3, Grizzly G0709 lathe, Clausing 8520 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.

  14. #74
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    Feb 2007
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    1538

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    I think you'll find that wasn't my post. That text came from metalmayhem: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/torma...ml#post2266346.

    Just for the record, on my 1100 I've been using the standard spring stack with 10 bar (145 psi) for the last 6 years and have never had a pullout issue.
    Step
    Hi Step - Do you have the ATC or just the PDB? Either way, what are your thoughts on the ATC?

    Cliff

  15. #75
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    Oct 2008
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    2100

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    I think you'll find that wasn't my post. That text came from metalmayhem: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/torma...ml#post2266346.

    Just for the record, on my 1100 I've been using the standard spring stack with 10 bar (145 psi) for the last 6 years and have never had a pullout issue.
    Step
    Your spring stack must be stronger than my spring stack. If I had cranked down the factory set of springs until it required that much to open it there wouldn't have been enough spring movement. Like I said I initially setup it up EXACTLY like it says in the Tormach documentation. Then I added a few springs tightened it up further, and increased the regulator air pressure to 120. Since my air system is shop wide with a refrigeration type dryer (along with multiple separators just in case) I don't really want to crank up the air any higher. I have my whole shop regulated to 125. Well I do have one quick couple right on the compressor tank for those times when I am servicing the air lines or adding a drop and find I still need air. It works now. Anyway, if you have your release pressure set at 145 yours isn't spec'ed to the manuals either. LOL.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  16. #76
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    Dec 2003
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    673

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Its a Goldilocks machine at the cheap end of the spectrum. My series 3 had some issues, a few design weaknesses and its a Chinese machine after all, but I was pretty happy with it. Its not a mass produced commodity machine. If this machine scares you and you aren't prepared to digging into it, then no matter what you buy you'll probably be disappointed. Its like a car in 1930. Basically sound, but you are going to have to work on things periodically. TTS pullout was the thing that spooked me the most and gouged my table, but it can be worked around. PDB is quick enough and I didn't feel the tool changer was worth it to me as it pushes you up into more expensive comparisons where the Tormach doesn't fare so well. I sold mine when I moved, and the new one addresses many of the concerns I had. Debating a new one or a HAAS mini.

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