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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I was almost about to place an order for the Premium package of PCNC440 (> $12,000) when I came across the following YouTube video review:



    Refunded : My Tormach Story

    Published just around 6 months ago, in the comments section there are plenty of others who have had similar experiences so it definitely is not a one off case.

    I read a bunch of comments (not all) but it appears that Tormach didn't even respond to this review!

    I simply cannot take a risk with any product from such a company.

    Anybody has any comments on this?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4world View Post
    I was almost about to place an order for the Premium package of PCNC440 (> $12,000) when I came across the following YouTube video review:



    Refunded : My Tormach Story

    Published just around 6 months ago, in the comments section there are plenty of others who have had similar experiences so it definitely is not a one off case.

    I read a bunch of comments (not all) but it appears that Tormach didn't even respond to this review!

    I simply cannot take a risk with any product from such a company.

    Anybody has any comments on this?
    That was a classic case of buying the wrong tool for the job and then being upset. He obviously has absolutely no idea what he was doing in buying that machine to make that park. I have a Haas TM to P and would not take a job requiring 6 inch tool engagement and a great surface finish. A 1234 or 5000 pound Mill isn’t going to do what he wanted it to do. I made a hell of a lot of money on my 400 pound X3 mill that I converted to CNC Because I knew what it could and couldn’t do. I also made a hell of a lot of money with my Tormach. I then sold it for almost what I bought it for making it the highest return on investment machine I have ever owned. If you were wanting to do high in production work that requires 1 inch tooling then no a 1000 or 2000 pound machine is not the right tool for the job. That is like showing up to a demolition job with a finishing hammer. Frankly the mini mill that he has now probably take some babysitting to get it to make that cut. I don’t even like doing profile work on my brother S 700s in Steele. I leave all the fixturing work for the Haas TM2P. But the brother runs 25,000 RPM 20+ hours a day with approximately 2 1/2 to 3 hours of human interaction. I also have a Haas OM2A that can only hold up to three eights inch tooling but the thing damn near prints money because I use the tool for what it’s made for.

    Tormach is a great starter machine. It’s a hell of a lot cheaper to crash the Tormach 15 times then $100,000 machine once. I have had to replace the spindle on both of my Haas machines. It’s not fun. If you’re in the garage and doing hobby stuff or wanting to learn Machining having a community of that type behind you puts you leaps and bounds above a lot of other cases. Sure you will outgrow it if you get into any type of production or if the parts require immaculate finishes that you can’t tumble afterwards. If you do get into that type of situation having the Tormach as a back up machine for second operation or zero operation is immensely usefulI. We make over 1000 parts A day and every single one of them comes off the Swiss looking like crap and then I tumble it for about 24 hours because if I slow down and take a finishing pass I can only make 500 parts today. A $10,000 Tumblr sitting in the corner running 24 hours a day saves me from having to buy another Swiss. Having a tormach sitting in the corner might save you from having to buy a second machine down the road. If you can tumble your parts after taking them off of an 1100 you’re saving a hell of a lot of money versus buying $100,000 machine to learn on and not see any ROI for 1 to 3 years.

    I wouldn’t let a single person who obviously didn’t know their elbow from an endmill have any bearing on your decision is for machine purchasing. Talk to people who’ve actually used both machines. Talk to people who started at the bottom and Clawed their way up from the garage and actually know how to machine parts. Yes there is a serious fanboy aspect to this brand and I don’t own one anymore so I don’t have a dog in the fight and as much as I like watching his videos to poke fun at him the dude is About as far from an expert on machine purchasing as you could possibly hope to ask for. In the last seven years I’ve bought 10 machines from 6 different manufacturers/brands and every single one of them earned it’s keep and had a place in my company’s progress. It all depends on your situation and where you are and what you’re trying to do. Biting off more than you can chew isn’t always the best way to start out. One of the only regrets that I made was going with the Haas TM instead of a Haas VF too. I got sucked in by the bigger travels and not realizing with good fixturing travels are not as important as rigidity and speed. You’re not gonna win any races with an 1100 but you can learn how to race get on the track and get the job done. If you’re good at it better machines will come along

  3. #3
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Quote Originally Posted by WOTDesigns View Post
    That was a classic case of buying the wrong tool for the job and then being upset.
    ...
    I wouldn’t let a single person who obviously didn’t know their elbow from an endmill have any bearing on your decision is for machine purchasing.
    Numerous people have complained about the Tormach in the comments section on that review so it's not just him.


    Quote Originally Posted by WOTDesigns View Post
    ... $100,000 machine.
    Sorry, I should have clarified that my needs are not for production and the budget is around $15K (see my recent post requesting for guidance: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...ml#post2265574)


    Quote Originally Posted by WOTDesigns View Post
    If you’re in the garage and doing hobby stuff or wanting to learn Machining having a community of that type behind you puts you leaps and bounds above a lot of other cases.
    Yes, I am grateful for the help I am getting from folks on this forum. Hope I can continue to learn in this area. You are obviously light years ahead of me in this.

    Thanks

  4. #4

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    It would be a poor business move for any company to respond to a youtube video review . It would be combat as soon as they do respond .

    Right off the top I have to question his motive . I'm sure he didn't do this out of the kindness in his heart for others . These being hobby mills , I'd also question the skill levels of the others who have commented
    Youtube reviews are great but they need to be taken with a grain of salt as well . That review was a ***** session and not a professional opinion . The guy in the video sounds to be mechanically incompetent , and I'd bet his cnc skill are probably the same .


    The tormachs aren't professional machines but in competent hands can do great things . I rolled 3 into my shop in august and within months they were well paid off with profit . I won't hesitate to buy more once I decide I need more . I'm not overly impressed with support and they have pissed me off , but it's not enough for me not to buy more of their machines .

    The key to buying a machine is deciding what your needs are . If you need to hold up tight tolerances all day in the ten thousands of an inch then tormach may not be your thing . Haas might not be your thing either depending on what your wanting to do . The tormachs as well as the other mills in the same price range need adjustment every so often , and it's just part of maintenance . I haven't adjusted mine yet and being conservative I've got at least 1200 hrs on each , though admittedly they are due for a couple slight tweaks .

  5. #5

    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    So do you think any other manufacturers have 100% customer satisfaction?? No Way.
    I know that people with no experience in CAD/CAM or machining commit to produce a product, buy a Tormach, and complain when at the end of the first week they aren't making money running the machine. Or the machine can't build the 5 axis widget they thought it could.
    I have two Series II PCNC1100's, both are 10yrs old. There is no way I could have afforded any larger more expensive machine to build what I needed when I started. Tormach success stories are filled with guys starting in their garage and out growing the Tormach and buying full on VMC's. That is great business for Tormach for prospective customers to start there. Customer service from them is as good or better than any other company I have dealt with or friends have dealt with. I've seen new Haas and Makino's sit on the floor months waiting on parts for repair. One new Haas ended up going back and months of spindle changes and waiting for techs to double and triple check everything because it just would not cut and leave a decent surface finish. I am super excited about the new 1100MX coming out, it fills a niche and at a more than competitive price I am sure.
    RAD. Yes those are my initials. Idea, design, build, use. It never ends.
    PCNC1100 Series II, w/S3 upgrade, PDB, ATC & 4th's, PCNC1100 Series II, 4th

  6. #6
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I just read your posting on the Benchtop forum but thought that I would respond here. You have many similarities to me: background in electrical and software engineering, some work in the medical field, both old (I'm 72) or almost old so I wanted something that works without having to spend months on a build, I make mostly small/tiny things of aluminum as prototypes or very short production runs, etc. I bought a PCNC770-III in 2010. My usage is sporadic rather than for production but I have had no problems that could be attributed to Tormach after almost nine years. With experience I can get accurate parts with excellent surface finish that requires no tumbling to make my customers happy. The control software (LinuxCNC based) is well documented and with source code if you want to change something (yes, I have made a few tweaks). Perhaps I was just lucky but I believe that I made the right choice.

  7. #7
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Tormach, sloppy leadscrews don't belong on any cnc machine. If your Chinese slaves can't build a more accurate machine don't sell that CRAP.

  8. #8
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Love my Tormach 1100S3...and there's a 770M inbound too.

    Will be curious to see how we like the newer M series and how it compares to what I've grown to know and love.

    WW

  9. #9
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    Tormach, sloppy leadscrews don't belong on any cnc machine. If your Chinese slaves can't build a more accurate machine don't sell that CRAP.
    Such comments are useless without details. Which Tormach model? Which axis? How much error? When purchased?

  10. #10
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I watched that video when he first uploaded it. In all fairness, Jason is not a professional machinist and says so in the video several times. What I got from his video is his frustration with being told upfront that the 770 could do what he was asking, and then getting a hassle when he tried to return it because it couldn't.

    WOT hits it squarely on the head...he was sold the wrong machine for the job. However, I thought the review of his experience sounded fair, and I can understand why he was upset. I've always had great luck with my 770, and I'd never want to be without it, but I've heard plenty of people having problems too. My next machine purchase will more than likely be a TM2.

  11. #11
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I started out with a Rockwell drill press, Craftsman cross slide table and made, I thought, nice RC boat outdrives with it back in the early 70's. Most of the results are the operator, the nice machinery helps but it can be done without it in a lot of cases.
    One of the big problems today is a fellow wants professional results with a first grade education and no experience and minimal cash outlay??
    I learned most things the hard way and today I really appreciate what I have because of that..............

    I have a Tormach 1100 S3 since 2012, I learned the CNC trade with it, it was just the right price point, fit in my garage as well I didnt expect profession results but was plesantly surprised!
    mike sr

  12. #12
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    Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality

    I think the review was okay, and I think Tormach did the wrong thing trying to sell him the machine.
    That being said, I'm a happy 440 owner. I knew what I was getting, and it was the best option for me.
    I could neither fit nor afford anything bigger, and the even-smaller mills (Grizzlys and such) were too much of a project compared to a turn-key system with full cabinet and flood coolant, keeping all the chips on the inside.
    (Well, I say "all the chips" but my wife disagrees...)
    It's a market for a product that takes a lot of effort to build, and only has so many buyers; you're not going to get the perfect solution at a price you'll want. Pick which compromise you're willing to live with.
    For many people like me, I'm sure that that compromise is Tormach, and for many others, it's not.

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