[kurtjohn]

Hey got my new 1100m tormach and it is advertised at 2hp motor. The tag says 1.1KW which is 1.5HP unless Im wrong. Can anybody with a 1100m look at the motor tag and let me know what it says for hp or kw before I call tormach? Thanks in advance

[R.DesJardin]

This is interesting.

[Richmaple]

Yeah. The motor they gave you doesn't match the power output you were promised. Agreed.
The only question is how much effort you expend now to right the situation. Bummer it's on you now though.
This once happened to me with a Laguna bandsaw (same deal... Motor wasn't what was promised) and it took a month of arguing and a lot of back and forth to get them to honor their original spec.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[rdsi]

Yeah, that's the same name plate on my PCNC1100 S3 motor.
Maybe they just put the wrong motor in or Tormach is playing some kind of numbers game.
Let us know what they say?

[jwatte]

Yeah, if that came in on an 1100M, then the Tormach people got gypped by their Chinese suppliers, and didn't manage to catch it.
They should presumably be quite apologetic and able to send you a replacement if you call them up.

Also, that motor has scuff marks and some grime on it. It looks used. (Unkind handling during manufacturing can also possibly cause those marks, but ... man. If I got that on a brand new 1100M, I'd be pissed.)

[rdsi]

Well my curiosity got me thinking & if you look at the manuals for the 1100S3 & 1100M they both call out the same motor P/N 30346. So it looks like you got the right motor so the question is how did Tormach get another 1/2 HP out of this motor. They are using a different VFD in the M series than the S3. Can a better VFD give you more HP from the same motor?

I'm already spooked every time I think about 1.5 HP through a TTS holder. If the M series really does deliver 2 HP it seem like pull-out will be even more of a problem.

[Steve Seebold]

Well my curiosity got me thinking & if you look at the manuals for the 1100S3 & 1100M they both call out the same motor P/N 30346. So it looks like you got the right motor so the question is how did Tormach get another 1/2 HP out of this motor. They are using a different VFD in the M series than the S3. Can a better VFD give you more HP from the same motor?

I'm already spooked every time I think about 1.5 HP through a TTS holder. If the M series really does deliver 2 HP it seem like pull-out will be even more of a problem.

Horsepower is not what directly causes pullout. Feed rates, depth and width of cut are your biggest contributors. I guess you could say cutter pullout is operator error.

[rdsi]

Sorry for over simplifying that. I think rigidity and vibration also factor into the pull-out issue. But in general, when the GW HP number goes up I'm thinking about pull-out & what I can do to minimize it!

[tmarks11]

They are using a different VFD in the M series than the S3.

What brand/model is the VFD?

[MichaelHenry]

I vaguely recall Tormach claiming 2 HP (peak) but don't ever recall seeing that defined.

[Zetopan]

I vaguely recall Tormach claiming 2 HP (peak) but don't ever recall seeing that defined.

I suspect that the inverter is up to the task of 2HP. My Series 1 has been upgraded to a series 3 and the inverter in it is obviously much stronger than 1.5HP. The maximum current trip point is actually, by factory default, set to 2X the rated motor current. If the motor overload is short enough in time that the temperature rise does not exceed the motor's maximum rated temperature then it could surely produce 2HP for awhile. If that is what Tormach is relying on for the M series they need to define the time limits or better yet the duty cycle for that "peak" rating.

[R.DesJardin]

I was under the impression is was a new 2hp motor also, not rated to 2hp. I hope Tormach clarifies this. So if it is the same motor it's just a pulley change to get the 7500rpm??? So I could get the M pulley for my Series 2 and 3 machines to get more rpm???? Then just used the M PP profile so it know it can turn that fast.

[kstrauss]

There may have also been changes to the spindle design and attention to balance. Tormach claims that the 770 spindle is especially balanced for a vibration free 10000 rpm.

[NSerink]

Hello, this is Nolan, an engineer at Tormach.
The 1100M motor faceplate is correct – the motor is rated at 1.5HP continuous duty. If that motor were used to drive a conveyor or HVAC compressor 24/7, you couldn’t run more than 1.5 HP of current through it without the motor overheating. Because machining is not a continuous load, it’s acceptable to over-current the motor (which we do in both 1100 and 770 machines). This is common practice among CNC machine tool manufacturers – it cuts down on weight and size in the spindle head. There is no difference in power output between a motor rated for 1.5HP and 2HP given the same current to the motor from the VFD.
Rest assured we tested the system with a dyno on the spindle side to include mechanical losses in our power rating, and actual cutting tests of full depth constant engagement for pieces of material the size of our travels to confirm the dyno results and any duty cycle concerns.

[Zetopan]

So I could get the M pulley for my Series 2 and 3 machines to get more rpm?

It's not that simple. The existing PCNC1100 spindle bearings are rated for a specific maximum RPM and they have a specific preload. Simply increasing the RPM runs the risk of shortening the spindle bearing life due to excessive heat generation. As a single sample point, my late Series 1 PCNC1100 originally came with a simpler VFD that was prone to runaway on occasion. (Yes I know that there were numerous tweaks available but that only reduced the frequency of occurrence.) When the VFD ran away (lost speed control) the spindle would race up to near 8,000 RPM and the heat buildup in the spindle nose was quite rapid. As a result I always quickly stopped the spindle and restarted it to regain control. The heat buildup was so rapid that holding your hand on the spindle nose was sufficient to detect it. So for those spindle bearings the bearing preload would have to be reduced and/or the bearings might need to be replaced with some rated for a higher RPM.

[R.DesJardin]

It's not that simple. The existing PCNC1100 spindle bearings are rated for a specific maximum RPM and they have a specific preload. Simply increasing the RPM runs the risk of shortening the spindle bearing life due to excessive heat generation. As a single sample point, my late Series 1 PCNC1100 originally came with a simpler VFD that was prone to runaway on occasion. (Yes I know that there were numerous tweaks available but that only reduced the frequency of occurrence.) When the VFD ran away (lost speed control) the spindle would race up to near 8,000 RPM and the heat buildup in the spindle nose was quite rapid. As a result I always quickly stopped the spindle and restarted it to regain control. The heat buildup was so rapid that holding your hand on the spindle nose was sufficient to detect it. So for those spindle bearings the bearing preload would have to be reduced and/or the bearings might need to be replaced with some rated for a higher RPM.

I bet one could find out the rpm rating pretty easily. I bet preload has a lot to do with heat generation. I have two 10yr old 1100's that have never had the spindle bearings replaced. Correct preload??? Maybe. I'd try a test with 7500rpm if it was just a matter of a pulley and having extra bearings on hand in case of a failure.

[rdsi]

The 1100M motor faceplate is correct – the motor is rated at 1.5HP continuous duty. If that motor were used to drive a conveyor or HVAC compressor 24/7, you couldn’t run more than 1.5 HP of current through it without the motor overheating. Because machining is not a continuous load, it’s acceptable to over-current the motor (which we do in both 1100 and 770 machines). This is common practice among CNC machine tool manufacturers – it cuts down on weight and size in the spindle head. There is no difference in power output between a motor rated for 1.5HP and 2HP given the same current to the motor from the VFD.

Thanks for the explanation.

Rest assured we tested the system with a dyno on the spindle side to include mechanical losses in our power rating, and actual cutting tests of full depth constant engagement for pieces of material the size of our travels to confirm the dyno results and any duty cycle concerns.

It would be helpful if Tormach would publish or make available the dyno results for all the machines.

[jwatte]

It would be helpful if Tormach would publish or make available the dyno results for all the machines

Yes!

A torque curve for each machine would be excellent.

[Jim Dawson]

Maybe Tormach should rate their machine spindles the same way most other big machine manufactures do. Most that I have seen have two ratings, continuous and 30 minute rating at a higher load. My lathe spindle for instance is rated at 5.5/7.5 KW. My Haas TM-2P is rated at 7.5 HP, but is rated at up to 150% torque intermittently.

I think that would eliminate the controversy. As it is now, advertising the spindle as 2HP then shipping motors that are clearly not 2HP is deceptive in my opinion, just like the consumer air compressors that say 5HP on them (~23 amps@230V) but only draw 15 amps @230V (about 3HP).