[deadlykitten]

hello i have a small id turning knife ( image 00 ), that is mounted like in image 01

each time i change that tool, i have to take out the sleeve from the machine, because there is not enough room inside the cabinet, so the keys won't fit ...

when i put it back, is a gamble, and there is a big chance to have the tool misaligned, in X and/or Y

i also can't check it's alignment, and, as a result, a new tool may break after machining 1 or 2 parts, especialy because the tool is small, so is very sensitive if not aligned properly

problem is that there is too much overhang, and i can't achieve repetability when changing that tool, and also i can't check it's alignment ... pls, how to deal with this situation? i mean, is there a 'normal' approach ? kindly

[rcs60]

there are a couple of things that i can think of
if the overhang is too much us a G50Wxxxx shift in the program to move the tool closer to the drill arm as long as the material is large enough to handle the overhang this might help with tool removal and replacement with out removing the tool holder
check your set screws holding the tool some time they have a ball on the end of the screws change them to a flat nose screw or one that has been ground with a flat this will help keep the tool rotated more correct
the piccco cut and the correct holder should put the tool on center as long as the screws are good so you shouldn't have to worry to much about being on center

[deadlykitten]

the piccco cut and the correct holder should put the tool on center

hi, i am afraid that this does not happen ... there is a play between the " id holder of the machine" and "sleeve that holds the tool" + other plays

this play is not extraordinary big, but it still allows to put&remove the sleeve by hand, without too much effort, and so, the screws will tend to tilt a bit this sleeve, so missaligining will increase on tools with long overhang ... things simply sum up

i just saw that there are even smaller piccos ( attached )

hmm, maybe there is a method for aligning such tiny stuff / kindly

[z369]

I'll bet it's pricey, but well worth the money if you constantly deal with small tooling...

https://www.genswiss.com/perfect-zero.htm

Youtube video of system here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWsXB7KzfI

[deadlykitten]

nice tool / thx

[Superman]

Iscar have a holder designed to hold & orientate that boring bar for easier replacement...
suggest you look at replicating their system
ie. pointed grub screw in groove to orientate & flat grub screws to clamp

[deadlykitten]

hello superman, please, do you have a link to it ? or is it here : ISCAR Cutting Tools - Metal Working Tools - PICCO R/L 050, 053, 055 : 6402330 - ?

kindly

ps : why i can't edit my " member " label, and how come you still have the " flies fast " ? aaa, not fair

[Superman]

hello superman, please, do you have a link to it ? or is it here : ISCAR Cutting Tools - Metal Working Tools - PICCO R/L 050, 053, 055 : 6402330 - ?

kindly

yes

ps : why i can't edit my " member " label, and how come you still have the " flies fast " ? aaa, not fair

you are not looking hard enough... happy hunting... LOL

[jreynolds5]

What you want to get is the picco ace holder I have linked here It requires a quarter turn to seat or realease the insert.

Alo in my opinion the Genswiss is not accurate enough. It is an interesting idea, but must not accurate enough to justify the purchase.

[deadlykitten]

hy jreynolds that thing from iscar is good 2 clamp the tool, but is not assuring coaxiality; only a sleeve and a cnc do not assure coaxiality, but a measuring & adjustment method

Also in my opinion the Genswiss is not accurate enough

somehow i also feel that; even if there is low tir when the device is clamped inside the guide bush ( and guide bushes are wear parts, etc ), also the camera has to be concentric with the od of the part, and i don't know how is possible to check that

however, i was wondering if there is a variant to home-build such gadget i am not up2date with latest stuff, but i believe that a small camera concentric with the housing + wireless transmission, is not hard to find these days / kindly

[jreynolds5]

you could always blue the end of your stock and bring up the tool and scribe it with the tool then remove the stock and look at it. I have never really founf that the be a big issu.

[z369]

What you want to get is the picco ace holder I have linked here It requires a quarter turn to seat or realease the insert.

Alo in my opinion the Genswiss is not accurate enough. It is an interesting idea, but must not accurate enough to justify the purchase.

What are you talking about? The Genswiss system can center the tool within TENTHS RELIABLY. You say it's not accurate enough, yet go on giving advice of blueing the end of the bar and scribe a line? LOL

[deadlykitten]

What are you talking about? The Genswiss system can center the tool within TENTHS RELIABLY

hi 369, to eliminate doubts, it is required to check :
... the alignment of the genswiss system; the camera center is coaxial with the housing ? they are never coaxial, so is needed to measure the excentricity, so to determine the precission class
... the resolution; that's easy

TENTHS RELIABLY

2.33 tens, or 0.7tens ?

1.1 or 0.15 tens ?

also, what does those numbers represent ? and how to check these numbers ?

You say it's not accurate enough, yet go on giving advice of blueing the end of the bar and scribe a line?

is not only about scribing the line, but also inspecting the scribbed line position with instruments with precision <0.01, like microscopes, etc

this method takes longer than using the genswiss, but is possible to determine their precision pretty accurate

a microscope acurracy&alignment can be checked, so it can be trusted, but it requires time to use it; to shorten that time, is easier to put the microscope/camera inside the cnc, but this 'alternative' also needs to be checked for accuracy & alignment ... at this moment i don't know how is that possible, so to make the device trustfull / kindly

[deadlykitten]

at this moment i don't know how is that possible, so to make the device trustfull

hello, it's been a while, but i believe i know how to check a genswiss system; idea behind it that any measuring device has to be checked to be within specs, and if it is ok, then you may use it without worries

is not enough to have a measuring device delivered with a certificate : a certificate means that it was ok when it left the manufacturer; whatever there is, periodical inspections are recomanded

the question, about a geswiss, is if the housing is cilindrical ( that is an easy check ), and if camera is coaxial with the housing :
... take a vmc, trammed, with a centro in it's spindle
... put a collet chuck on the table, with the genswiss in it
... find the center of the genswiss, then repeat near the bottom, so to be sure that it is coaxial with the spindle
... remove the centro, and put a center drill inside the spindle; check it, so to have low tir
... turn on the genswiss system, and rotate the spindle; pulse handle z, so to get it in focus : this will give you some numbers, because the vmc axis has positioning accuracy / kindly

[Thunder27]

Swap the Picco tool with the drill in the bottom station and install the Picco tool and holder inverted (upside down). Boom, access to set screws. You will have to swap X+ for X- in your program, G2/G3 swap, as well as your comp direction and quadrant.

[deadlykitten]

happy hunting... LOL

hei superman, i am not sure, but i believe that some users with older accounts have some 'edit' possibilites, that are no longer available

if i go :
... my profile (up) \ about me (tab) \ edit your about me (right label), then nothing happens
... setting (up) \ edit profile ( left bottom ), then attached interface appears, and i'm stuck

is it enough hunting ?:drowning:

Boom, access to set screws

hi thunder, yup, this will allow acces to the screws, but i am still not sure if i will be on center ...

of course, is better to avoid removing the sleeve from the lathe, and putting it back after, but even so, without removing the sleeve, the alignment has to be checked ; tools have broked inside the 1st or 2nd part ... and they are so tiny ... kindly

[Thunder27]

Install tool in holder, put holder in tool station, face off stock with turn tool, call up tool, touch tool off to face of stock, tighten holder set screws, jog Z1 forward .001", jog X1 X+ until tool is off of stock, cut off about .100-.200 of bar stock and catch that little coin, check the scored line on a tool scope to see how far over/under center you are, make adjustment to tool station core value to put the tool on center.

[deadlykitten]

hmm, sounds interesting, thank you very much

i wonder, is it a good idea to scracth the surface with such a little tool ? i don't know

most of the times, i am used to align without cutting, thus to be sure that when the tool will be mounted, it will be where it should be ... i am thinking about a method that does not involve the tool / kindly

[Thunder27]

I do it all the time with tools that size. If you are worried the tool will chip, then use brass stock as it is more forgiving. I am very much in favor of putting your TOOL on center, not just your tool holder or tool station.

[MCImes]

I think you're over thinking this. I have used boring bars down to .016" min bore with a .009" Ø neck. Other than sweeping the drill pocket to within like.0002" and triple checking the initial touch off, i just set small boring bars like regular, just with more attention to initial precision. The flat tip set screws do a pretty good job of finding center. Make sure you center the flats as much as possible initially. Then tighten the screw, loosen just a tiiiiny bit, wiggle, tighten, loosen, wiggle, tighten. This will get the tool holder centered on the flat pretty darn well.

If you watch the video for the Genswiss system, you will see that it accounts for runout of the guide bushing, so yes, it should give you true center within a couple tenths. (that is a couple ten thousandths of an inch or .005mm - plenty accurate, basically the same as a tool maker scope)

If you dont want to fork out big bucks for the genswiss system, you could use the "face bar, stop spindle, jog off, cutoff, measure nib, offset" method. This is slow-ish and annoying to do each time you replace the tool, but if you're breaking bars consistently its worth it.

If you offset a new tool minus a few thou, measure the first part then offset do you still have problems?

Do you think you are breaking the tool because X is off, Z is off, or you centerline is off (cutting above/below center)?

Also, can you program in some redundancy? If this is a known problem tool, can you lighten the DOC or feed so there is more strength in reserve to account for unexpected machining conditions? If you're right at the edge of stable with a perfect setup small issues become big issues quickly.