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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?
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  1. #1
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    Oct 2004
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    Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    A couple of years ago, there was a Chinese TTS ER20 collet chuck that got pretty good reviews on accuracy, fit and finish. Now I don't seem to be able to find them. Has that source dried up?

  2. #2
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    Jun 2014
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    1777

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Wholesales 10pcs C3 4 ER20 1 38 Straight Collet Chuck Holder CNC Milling Lathe | eBay

    Try this link, the site shows that its an active listing.

    They dont always have all sizes available but usually er11 and er20.
    I use the er20 and er11 varieties, no problems with excessive runout.

    I also bought some Chinese endmills, the ad says they are good for wood or aluminum, I have about 3000 wood blocks to make and I didnt want to ruin expensive cutters on them, so I bought 10 just for a test. They work suprisingly well, the edge seems to last as long as a HSS quality cutter, they were less than 20 dollars for 10 of them delivered! They are 3 flute 6mm and not center cutting, but on wood that doesnt make much difference in my application.

    Acids in the wood destroy the sharp cutting edge quickly, carbide or HSS if the wood is not very dry, but at this price just replace the cutter.

    6mm x 6mm 3 Flute HSS Aluminium End Mill Cutter Extended CNC Bit Sale - Banggood.com
    mike sr

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    630

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    The Novakon guys have some for $15 a pop that are non-ATC holders. Very reasonable.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    624

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkaustin View Post
    A couple of years ago, there was a Chinese TTS ER20 collet chuck that got pretty good reviews on accuracy, fit and finish. Now I don't seem to be able to find them. Has that source dried up?
    Still available as of about 5-6 months ago. You may have to dig a bit on e-bay. The seller was Bsello68, the collets were YinSheng. Still out there, still tagged with the graphic, but a different seller name now. Ebay seller is now "cncmachinetool", but the YS and bsello68 graphics were on the pictures last August. 10 buck a piece plus 6 shipping (by DHL) so 16 bucks total cost. Last set I bought met the same specs as the originals, slightly different packaging but pretty clearly the same suppiler.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    720

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    So reading this thread reminded me that I had purchased some of these when this subject first came up, and had good results from them. I decided I could use some more and ordered from the link in the earlier post. I don't quite know how they pull this off, because the seller doesn't claim to have his stock pre-positioned, but I received my order in 47 hours! Ordered on eBay at 2:22 pm, April 24th, came some time before my 1:30 mail delivery today the 26th. Didn't come in the mail, but when I walked out for the mail the kid next door met me with the package.

    Terry

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    1538

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    I bought some of the cheap TTS copies and checked them for accuracy compared with the genuine Tormach product.

    They were much less accurate. See my report PDF below.

    Keen

  7. #7
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    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    I bought some of the cheap TTS copies and checked them for accuracy compared with the genuine Tormach product.

    They were much less accurate. See my report PDF below.

    Keen

    Precise Bits published a slick approach to getting a collet concentric for routers. Amazingly crude in appearance with apparently good results. Haven't tried tuning up any of the cheap collets, as I've had very good results with the collets Bsello68 sells using small diameter (.032) cutters. The Chinese suppliers seem to have proliferated, though, and what's available may be a case of Jet vs Harbor Freight: all from the same factory (reportedly, anyway) but the better stuff goes to one supplier and the looser spec stuff goes elsewhere.

    Added: I do use precision collets, and I do check new holders with a carbide dowel and v-block. Every one, no matter the source.

  8. #8
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    Aug 2009
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    610

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    I too have been running the Bsello ER20 collet holders for a few years and have not had any issues with run out in the 24 that I had. I routinely use them, with quality CNC collets, to hold 1/8" shank tools and 1/4" tools. Like you GLCarlson I have had no issues running 0.032" 4 flute ball and even 0.020" ball mills with as good of a surface finish as the Tormach can muster. Maybe there was a bad batch of them at some point that hit New Zealand, but the ones that I purchased have been good to me. Here's a quick shot of some intricate work being done with el' cheapo ER20 and a Kyocera 1/32" ball mill.
    Attachment 318292

  9. #9
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    Apr 2011
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    720

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    I'm like the other folks, I was quiet happy with the original batch, my only testing was checking the run out with a dowel pin chucked up and the Bsello holders tested essentially the same as my Tormach ones. I will check the new batch and let everyone know if they are the same or different.

    Terry

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    1082

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    My shipment also came in roughly 2 days. Amazing! (DHL was the shipper)

    I find it pretty amazing that they were able to ship something from China to my door in New Mexico faster than Tormach in wherever they are. I also seem to recall calculating that the shipping cost was lower than Tormach's as well, but I think Tormach has rejiggered their shipping pricing since then.

  11. #11
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    Feb 2007
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    1538

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    How do you folk feel about the ethics of buying copies versus supporting the original inventor and developer?

    I am not being trying to be smart here - there are pros and cons... it is a genuine question.

    Keen

  12. #12
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    Aug 2009
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    610

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Well seeing as the ones that I purchased were the 1.38" OD versions I would have to say that I bought an original design in its own right :-). Amazingly I find that they still repeat in Z within a thousandth of an inch with my manual draw bar tightening. I don't copy other folks IP and turn it into a salable good-period. Unfortunately there is no reciprocity in the developing world and it can be quite challenging to identify counterfeit products from the "real thing" these days. If someone wants to take the chance and purchase from a 3rd party who am I, as an individual, to interfere with their risk taking behavior? As I get older I can attest that the concept of Karma is becoming more tangible to me on a daily basis.

  13. #13
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    Feb 2006
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    7063

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    From a legal standpoint, there is absolutely nothing wrong with third parties making "TTS" tooling, as long as they don't call it that. None of the key features of TTS are patented, as there is nothing remotely unique or patentable about it - all the features that comprise TTS existed decades before Tormach came into being. TTS is simply one of a great many functionally similar designs. The only aspects of TTS that are covered by any kind of legeal "Intellectual Property" protection are the physical appearance (i.e. - the shape) of the TTS set-screw holders, which is covered by a design patent, and the name "Tormach Tooling System", which is copy-righted. The important technical features - a straight shank holder, and a seating surface to provide repeatable Z position - have been common practice in the worldwide machine tool industry since early in the last century. So, there is no real "invention" or "development" involved. Rather, just a minor re-hashing of long-standing practice.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  14. #14
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    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    How do you folk feel about the ethics of buying copies versus supporting the original inventor and developer?

    I am not being trying to be smart here - there are pros and cons... it is a genuine question.

    Keen
    I think it's a fair issue, and I've been on the receiving end of a total theft of IP from a Chinese company (they literally stole every single thing- trade dress, working drawings, formulas, the whole shootin' match) AND sold non-functional counterfeits...which the consumer held my company responsible for. So I've got some views.

    Generally, inventors who have strong IP will protect it, and can do so. In the case above, we had strong worldwide IP, both design and composition, and even in China, with its literally notorious courts, we sued, and won. And we did it in the US, too. Note, though- deciding to protect, getting protection, and enforcing it IS the responsibility of the inventor/developer. Depending on the novelty and strength of the available IP, that may not be a good idea. If Tormach wants to see the TTS market expand, letting a works-alike surface is a way to bring users into the category who might otherwise not play for cost reasons. A rising tide floats all boats, and a bigger market usually means everyone makes more money. The inventor/developer gets to decide which strategy works best for him. I have no moral or ethical stake in that decision.

    There's also the whole question of trade secret vs published IP. I'd argue that a lot of Tormach's brand rep rests on the total integration of the package to a level of functionality. That's very hard to steal, indeed.

    Tormach is selling a brand with some guarantees of performance. The "generic" guy is not claiming to be Tormach, he's selling a works-alike. I don't recall the IP status on TTS; my copy of the TTS manual lists no IP. To the extent I recall, Tormach has claimed design patents on some of their products (and I think this may be one of them). However. Design patents are "form and shape", and the Bsello product is missing a couple of elements if there is a design patent (the ATS ring and the bevel come to mind). If there is a design or utility patent, then Tormach is free to pursue a case against the seller in a protected market. But, if the works-alike producer has created -or reverse engineered- a functional equivalent, well, that's how free markets work.

    That may be slicing the bacon very thinly, and one may disagree.

    For me, though, I've bought TTS from Tormach, and like it. Several others are selling a works-alike at about half the price, though, and -as long as it truly works alike, and isn't sold as a Tormach brand- I have no ethical problem buying from some other seller. At my own risk. I can't ask Tormach to make it good if my choice fails.

    In this case, I don't hae a problem with capitalism in action.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    720

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Today I wanted to check out the new batch of collet chuck, but I didn't want to make a project out of it so I chose one of the new ones, and one ATC style Tormach chuck. the quick answer is to my skill level, they tested the same.

    I wanted to try Keen's method so I did that with a small vee block and a Mit .0005" indicator. As he mentioned in his write up, it's a little tricky to get consistent results, but with some practice I got things to repeat fairly well. I measured around .0005" to .0007" TIR on both the old Tormach chuck and the new one. I'm not at all sure the run out was all due to the tool and not at least partially to rotating by hand, but for me the important point was I saw the same results for both chucks. One wrinkle is that the ATC chuck was longer than the new one so I had to move the setup between tests. That means it's very unlikely that I measured the same depth on the collet bore of the two chucks. I don't believe that's too important here, but thought I would mention it.

    Also the new chucks appear to be ground on the bore, just as the Tormach ones were, in Keen's report he said the copies he was able to test appeared to be only milled in the bores. Perhaps the mythical Chinese factory read his report and upped their game. LoL

    Bottom line for me, the ones I just bought will be fine for the work I do.

    Terry

  16. #16
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    Aug 2015
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    58

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    I bought a batch of TTS style ER20 tool holders from YSTOOL on ebay. I did some testing on them today after I was getting unexplained chatter. I was measuring .005-007" of run-out on the worst couple in the batch. I'll test the rest in the next couple days. Maybe I got a bad batch. Very disappointed in them. I've emailed the seller to see if he is willing to refund/exchange them. For reference my genuine Tormach TTS holders all measure less than 0.0005" of run-out.

  17. #17
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    Feb 2007
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    1538

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Quote Originally Posted by extdrive View Post
    I bought a batch of TTS style ER20 tool holders from YSTOOL on ebay. I did some testing on them today after I was getting unexplained chatter. I was measuring .005-007" of run-out on the worst couple in the batch. I'll test the rest in the next couple days. Maybe I got a bad batch. Very disappointed in them. I've emailed the seller to see if he is willing to refund/exchange them. For reference my genuine Tormach TTS holders all measure less than 0.0005" of run-out.
    Thanks for checking and posting. Keen

  18. #18
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    1777

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    New 10pcs C3 4 ER20A 1 38" Collet Chuck Straight Collet Chuck CNC Milling Lathe | eBay

    This is a link for the 10 pcs of er20's, looks like the price went up 20 dollars or so US.
    The last batch I bought were ER 16's, I actually like those better for the smaller cutters, I dont think he keeps them all in stock all the time.

    The link is for YS Tooll in case the link doesnt work.
    mike sr

  19. #19
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    Jan 2005
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    1943

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    How do you folk feel about the ethics of buying copies versus supporting the original inventor and developer?

    I am not being trying to be smart here - there are pros and cons... it is a genuine question.

    Keen
    This question is asked every time there is a thread on these import tool holders.

    IMO, the Tormach TTS is simply an integrated stop collar. Nothing more. As such I feel no ethical obligation to purchase the Tormach product over any other.

    I have been using stop collars on drills, mills, and all sorts of other tooling for years. I was shown how to use stop collars to locate tooling for repeatable tool height during tool changes when my father got his first X-Cello CNC knee mill back in 1986. We used R8 collets and other R8 tooling. With a collar on a tool you could bump it up against the R8 collet when doing tool changes. Worked great. I continued to do this in the years since.

    When you buy a micro end mill, many times it has a collar already attached to it which is there for setting the tool to the proper height by bumping it against the chuck, collet or whatever it is installed in.

    Lathes have used internal stops to position work pieces for eons.

    5C collets have provisions for internal work stops.

    What all of these have in common is that something bumps up against something else to provide accurate positioning. TTS isn't unique in this regard.

    Unless I am mistaken, Tormach only has a design patent on TTS, and not a utility patent, and then it is only on the set screw end mill holders. The patent claim is "The ornamental design for a milling tool holder, as shown and described." As I understand it, a design patent protects an article's unique external appearance, while a utility patent protects the article's function. I could care less what it looks like and am concerned with the function. As said, the function is not unique and Tormach did not invent the bump stop.

  20. #20
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    1538

    Re: Inexpensive TTS ER20 Collet Chucks Still Available?

    Quote Originally Posted by 109jb View Post
    This question is asked every time there is a thread on these import tool holders.

    IMO, the Tormach TTS is simply an integrated stop collar. Nothing more. As such I feel no ethical obligation to purchase the Tormach product over any other.

    I have been using stop collars on drills, mills, and all sorts of other tooling for years. I was shown how to use stop collars to locate tooling for repeatable tool height during tool changes when my father got his first X-Cello CNC knee mill back in 1986. We used R8 collets and other R8 tooling. With a collar on a tool you could bump it up against the R8 collet when doing tool changes. Worked great. I continued to do this in the years since.

    When you buy a micro end mill, many times it has a collar already attached to it which is there for setting the tool to the proper height by bumping it against the chuck, collet or whatever it is installed in.

    Lathes have used internal stops to position work pieces for eons.

    5C collets have provisions for internal work stops.

    What all of these have in common is that something bumps up against something else to provide accurate positioning. TTS isn't unique in this regard.

    Unless I am mistaken, Tormach only has a design patent on TTS, and not a utility patent, and then it is only on the set screw end mill holders. The patent claim is "The ornamental design for a milling tool holder, as shown and described." As I understand it, a design patent protects an article's unique external appearance, while a utility patent protects the article's function. I could care less what it looks like and am concerned with the function. As said, the function is not unique and Tormach did not invent the bump stop.
    Thanks for that point - very interesting.

    I am not sure if the examples of stop collars that you quote that predate Tormach actually go around and clear of the collet and engage on the spindle end face in the way the TTS does?

    I think this idea was thought of by Greg Jackson.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Keen

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